"prostate symptoms" are really pelvic floor/perinium?

[moonman1]

Immediately following my crash, one of the symptoms I noticed is sort of strange and hard to explain. It was as if I could not flex my penis/stop urinary flow/push out urine harder. This came with decreased flow and dribbling at the end. I also had a very dull ache alot of the time in the “gouch / grundel” area (between balls and anus) and every once in a while it will spasm.

Now this seems to me to be more in the pelvic floor/perinium to me. How do you tell the difference? I mean the pelvic floor does do alot of the things that the prostate dose…

Trigger points in the pelvic floor may have an effect on the bladder and associated nerves giving rise to urinary frequency and urgency and through the referral of pain to the bladder. Moreover, if the pelvic floor is unable to relax properly during voiding this will result in a weakening and “splitting” of the urinary stream. Dr Weiss states that there may be “more tension and constriction around the urethra… Therefore, symptoms can occur just because of tension”. Also, there are muscles in the perineum responsible for contracting forcefully at the end of urination in order to “squirt” any remaining urine out of the urinary tract. If these muscles are in spasm or are unable to function properly, this may be one possible reason for the symptom of “dribbling” at the end of urination, and also for the commonly reported symptom of weak

After reading this, I notice that my urine stream is split in 2 streams probably 80% of the time I urinate.

Although the inner tissues of the prostate are rarely inflamed (as they would be if the prostate were infected), CPPS patients do have markers of inflammation in their prostatitic secretions, such as abnormal cytokine profiles in their EPS, and some have changes to the bladder wall or prostatic urethra indicative of active neurogenic inflammation.

This shows how it could be diagnosed or appear as prostate inflamation, but really isnt. How many guys have had doctors tell them that their prostate dose not appear large…

So anyways, am I just talking out of my ass, or does this sound feasible?

[Mew]

Quote your sources then maybe people can give you an valid response as to whether they think its legit or not.

[moonman1]

quotes in the first post are from

chronicprostatitis.com/myoneuropathy.html

chronic pelvic pain syndrome (CP/CPPS) is characterised by pelvic or perineal pain without evidence of urinary tract infection,[5] lasting longer than 3 months,[6] as the key symptom. Symptoms may wax and wane. Pain can range from mild discomfort to debilitating. Pain may radiate to back and rectum, making sitting difficult. Dysuria, arthralgia, myalgia, unexplained fatigue, abdominal pain, constant burning pain in the penis, and frequency may all be present. Frequent urination and increased urgency may suggest interstitial cystitis (inflammation centred in bladder rather than prostate). Post-ejaculatory pain, mediated by nerves and muscles, is a hallmark of the condition,[7] and serves to distinguish CP/CPPS patients from men with BPH or normal men. Some patients report low libido, sexual dysfunction and erectile difficulties.

it looks like some report low libido as well (as a symptom of or with though?)

[moonman1]

ok, so as i am researching more, i am updating this thread.

it appears that chronic prostatis is very connected to pelvic floor disorders. in facts many people interchangably use prostatis and pfd

[visionquest99]

@moonman1

Now this seems to me to be more in the pelvic floor/perinium to me. How do you tell the difference? I mean the pelvic floor does do alot of the things that the prostate dose…

I get the perinium pain and spasms.

Do you guys also get a dull ache in your groin area/inguinal area?

If so, what do you think causes that?

[moonman1]

I am going to bump this thread…as I start to think it becomes more valid.

I think that the prostate issues and sexual issues most of us have…may just be pelvic floor tension. They are basically the exact same symptoms as bacterial prostatitis.

A “synonyms” for pelvic floor tension is actually chronic prostatitis. This usually is abacterial, but absolutely still can be bacterial. And the prostate itself can be inflamed a long with the pelvic floor and perineum.

This pelvic tension is most likely from a norepinephrine dominance, but I would not rule out other causes in conjunction.

Finding the root cause of this is important, but nearly impossible so far.

Things that definitely help…
-Pelvlic PT (finding trigger points…many are actually found from inside the rectum) The Stanford/Wise-Anderson protocol seems to be the best.
-Alpha Blockers…there are A1 and A2 blockers. I will likely try out Prazosin as soon as I get my hands on some. Remember though…alpha blockers will only block norepi. in those particular areas…but will raise systematic norepi. causing beta receptors to be more active…however the alpha blocker should let blood back into the genital tract

Basically, this condition causes a constriction of blood to the gential tract. Less blood flow, less nutrients, less sensitivity, etc

Remember…urinary measurements are not valid for neurochemicals…so dont bring that into this.

A good link to get started that has been posted many times b4 chronicprostatitis.com/myoneuropathy.html

[bluecloud87]

These guys on the hard flaccid/ sexual exhaustion forums who have similar symptoms go by this stuff.

[moonman1]

am I the only one who noticed I often am clinching that area without even noticing it. i have to mentally relax that area.

[droit]

Read ’ A Headache in the pelvis.’ It will solve a lot of your problems. The book even sites the below paper which ties chronic pelvic pain to disruption of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18207189

More articles here:

pelvicpainhelp.com/abstractofresearch.php

[bluecloud87]

What do you mean ‘it will solve a lot of your problems’? reading a book won’t solve anyones problems. It is indeed very good reading for someone with prostatitis or pelvic issues.

The thing is, the main symptoms are pain - most people on this board don’t experience pains.

[droit]

@UK20

What do you mean ‘it will solve a lot of your problems’? reading a book won’t solve anyones problems. It is indeed very good reading for someone with prostatitis or pelvic issues.

The thing is, the main symptoms are pain - most people on this board don’t experience pains.

UK20,

A lot of people do complain of pains and tension - one areas of pain that the book talks about (and people on this forum) is pain in the testicles. I’ve seen it dozens of times on this forum.

From a Google-Scholar search, its evident that DHT is involved in is muscle relaxation. It’s not unreasonable to suspect that cutting your DHT is causing constriction of the pelvic floor muscles and thus chronic Prostatitis/pelvic pain. Why would it persist after Fin? The book maintains that you’ll get trigger points/muscle knots with tight muscles that make it hard to relax without manual intervention.

I’ll take it a bit further into ‘theories’ and suggest that if my interpretation of the paper cited above is correct (Psychometric profiles and hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis function in men with chronic prostatitis/chronic pelvic pain syndrome), then its reasonable to suggest chronic pelvic pain exerts pressure on the adrenals possibly leading to adrenal crash.

I’d like to see a trial of forum members work on the therapies in ‘A Headache in the Pelvis’ then attempt to confront Adrenal Fatigue.

[Mew]

From a Google-Scholar search, its evident that DHT is involved in is muscle relaxation.

Pls post links to these studies.

[moonman1]

@UK20

What do you mean ‘it will solve a lot of your problems’? reading a book won’t solve anyones problems. It is indeed very good reading for someone with prostatitis or pelvic issues.

The thing is, the main symptoms are pain - most people on this board don’t experience pains.

Pain does not need to be present. It can just be a dull ache…

[droit]

Thanks moonman1, I forgot about that.

Mew,

DHT is implicated in muscle relaxation directly and peripherally in many papers:

Effects of dihydrotestosterone on skeletal muscle transcriptome:

jme.endocrinology-journals.org/content/36/2/247.short

And of course DHT mediates the NO cycle:

endo.endojournals.org/content/136/4/1495.short

Where NO is described as having the following effect on smooth muscle on wiki (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_oxide):

“The endothelium (inner lining) of blood vessels uses nitric oxide to signal the surrounding smooth muscle to relax, thus resulting in vasodilation and increasing blood flow.”

But I don’t think we should get caught up with this specific origin (lack of DHT results in tight pelvic muscles) of chronic pelvic pain, as it may be related but not the most important.

[martinM]

@droit

DHT is implicated in muscle relaxation directly and peripherally in many papers:

Effects of dihydrotestosterone on skeletal muscle transcriptome:

jme.endocrinology-journals.org/content/36/2/247.short

And of course DHT mediates the NO cycle:

endo.endojournals.org/content/136/4/1495.short

Where NO is described as having the following effect on smooth muscle on wiki (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_oxide):

“The endothelium (inner lining) of blood vessels uses nitric oxide to signal the surrounding smooth muscle to relax, thus resulting in vasodilation and increasing blood flow.”

But I don’t think we should get caught up with this specific origin (lack of DHT results in tight pelvic muscles) of chronic pelvic pain, as it may be related but not the most important.

Why do you think lack of DHT is not important? It could result in deficiencies and problems all over the body, not just the pelvic region, especially in the musculature structure itself. Deficiencies within the muscles could lead to lack of proper muscle growth and the inability to relax that is reported on this board.

[droit]

martinM,

I would agree. Its just dangerous pinpoint a origin of pathology without evidence.

[visionquest99]

FWIT, just came across this re the so-called Stanford/Wise-Anderson protocol.

Link to Video

We are a group of patients who have attended the Wise Anderson clinic. We have made this presentation to inform other patients.

Only the Wise-Anderson studies go through Stanford. The A headache in the Pelvis clinic is in not in any way affiliated with Stanford University.

Rodney Anderson holds professor emeritus status. You can look for the definition of this title on the net. It means he has retired from Stanford Urology department.

David Wise is a psychologist. However his Ph.D is in sociology, he is not a Doctor of psychology. David Wise has no medical qualifications.

Please also see our latest video located on our channel page which explains the results of the latest Wise Anderson study. These results demonstrate the ineffectiveness of the Wise Anderson Protocol. This video can be seen here: youtube.com/watch?v=iAcPEABol-8

On our channel page there are also links to photos of and related to the clinic.

[moonman1]

Well, I am now 99% sure that at least in my case the “prostate issues” as well as my “penile issues” (shrunken penis, smaller balls, spider veins, variocele, erectile issues) are all from pelvic floor tension. Hopefully this helps at least a few others here.

I was searching for a few weeks for any trigger points in the perineum, anus, pelvic areas. It took me a few weeks to find any but I finally found a lot. They are small and deep and hard to explain the exact location. Its like the start at the very tips of my hamstrings where it connects right below the gluteus around the bone. Holy shit the pain I felt when I finally found them was crazy. Withing seconds they were sore and tender. I also was able to follow that and find some on the ischiocavernous muscle.

I also notice that my abdominals pre-crash were always tight and strong…compared to now where they are all weak and loose. I ran my knuckles over them and down around the upper pelvic area (above the penis) and noticed the same tender weak feeling that immediately went sore and tender.

So I have been working on all the trigger points once or twice a week…its hard though cuz they stay so sore and tender. I am looking for a pelvic physical therapist who specializes in this…but no luck with my area.

I know it is extremely controversial here, but the sexual/penile/prostate sides we have are really the same as the “hard flaccid” guys and also many “sexual exhaustion” guys. Many of them get these symptoms from a variety of ways (too much masturbation, illness, erectile injury, ecstasy, cocaine, etc use, variocele surgery, saw pawmetto, stress breakdown, etc.

What is the root cause of this? I personally feel that there is a dominance of norepinephrine causing the chronic condition. However many disagree. Some say that a specific even causes the tension and that it is “stuck” until proper steps such as physical therapy and anti-stress methods are used. Many guys are having great success with a physical therapist. There are also some (mainly the saw Palmetto guys) who think the loss of DHT is causing it. It really could be anything.

With recommendation from others…I decided to try a subtype specific alpha blocker, Prazosin. While there are some rough side effects, I do notice major improvement with sexual and penile symptoms. The pill only lasts 3-4 hours, but my shrinkage is gone for that time, erections come on very easily, and I am rock hard during sex. It works just as good as Viagra, which I have had on and off effects from. Prazosin works by blocking the receptors in the penis and perineum from norepinephrine. As we now norepinephrine is a major vasoconstrictor. Flomax is also an alpha blocker, but works on a completely different subtype. It works solely on the prostate and not at all on the penis or perineum.

Here is a good thread to check out if you are open to the idea…
musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?17459-Hard-Flaccid-Syndrome….

I am looking into the cause of this. I personally believe it is norepinephrine so I am looking in that direction. Dominance of norepi. could deplete dopamine causing the low libido. It is possible that methylation causes this through COMT and the catecholamines. But this is all ramblings for now…

[bluejaysfan]

Had a good stretch while on yohimbine, which is an alpha 2 blocker. As always, I seem to find something that scares me in my internet searches. Thought I read that some alpha blockers can kill off prostate cells or shrink it. If you/we don’t have an enlarged prostate, does this worry you?

I don’t get the trigger point stuff… Are we supposed to find the sore spots and massage them?

I can’t remember what I read, but, of the alpha blockers I researched, flomax seemed to cause more problems.

Im currently seeing a prostate doc… Weekly prostate drainings - just started septra, which is similar to bactrim. I’m a believer in pelvic problems/prostatitis being part of the solution to this.

Keep us posted… the musclechatroom thread is too much to wrap my head around.

[moonman1]

@bluejaysfan

Had a good stretch while on yohimbine, which is an alpha 2 blocker. As always, I seem to find something that scares me in my internet searches. Thought I read that some alpha blockers can kill off prostate cells or shrink it. If you/we don’t have an enlarged prostate, does this worry you?

I don’t get the trigger point stuff… Are we supposed to find the sore spots and massage them?

I can’t remember what I read, but, of the alpha blockers I researched, flomax seemed to cause more problems.

Im currently seeing a prostate doc… Weekly prostate drainings - just started septra, which is similar to bactrim. I’m a believer in pelvic problems/prostatitis being part of the solution to this.

Keep us posted… the musclechatroom thread is too much to wrap my head around.

Yup, yohimbe works very similarly to Prazosin. The difference though is that it also raises systematic norepinephrine, which will cause a host of other bad sides such as panicky feelings and high blood pressure. Prazosin just blocks norepinephrine from the pelvic floor…it does not raise it systematically as well.

Certain alpha blockers can cause worsened erectile/sexual issues…such as Flomax. Flomax only blocks Alpha-1a receptors and these are only in the prostate. That means that there will be extra norepinephrine available for the Alpha-1b receptors, which control the dilation and constriction of blood vessels. Hence why Flomax is not something we need to take.

On the other hand Prazosin seems to be more selective towards Alpha-1b receptors, which means that it allows normal/greater blood flow to the smooth muscles (penis, periuneum) that are currently constricted (hence spider veins, and shrunken penis).

The trigger points are really just small “knots” where the muscle/facia has clumped up. This is possibly due to stress/noepinephrine (acute or chronic) and/or vasoconstriction. It is best to find a professional pelvic therapist in your area, because it is impossible to find all of the points on your own. Many you can only reach from within the anus. But if you do try on your own, myofacial release if best. Stretches help as well. It took me 2 weeks to find any, but once I did find one I began to find many more. If you do myofacial release on them, they will immediately go sore and tender…you will know.

Pelvic Floor Tension is known by many names…
-Chronic Prostatitis Type III
-Pelvic Dysfunction
-CPPS
-Pelvic Myonueropathy