Your overloaded/over saturated receptor theory is interesting.
I’m trying to think out side the box with ways to fix receptors that are over worked/over saturated.
Would shutting down all of my testosterone production somehow and giving my endocrine system a break with no T At all do the trick?
Kind of like the same logic as a water fast? A reboot ?
Starting from scratch and hitting the reset switch.
I’m interested in this theory but after putting hours and hours of thought into it I don’t think my receptors are any more inclined to respond better to prescription T than my own good natural levels.
But I do think your theory is one of the best.
Decreasing DHT somehow caused are receptors to go crazy (working overtime going in to some type of survival mode knowing they now had less male hormones to work with)
This over worked them causing them to not respond to T and DHT properly.
Injecting more T trying to fix it makes them worse by over saturating them.
I like the theory. But how to fix it? Maybe there is a better more logical way to fix burnt out receptors other than simply injecting T that we are not thinking of?
Can I somehow reboot my receptors following the same logic as a water fast? Give my endocrine system a break with no male hormones than let my endocrine system be exposed to T and DHT again after it’s “fast” to see what the result would be.
It’s time we start thinking out side of the box. We know the answer is not 2 inhibit DHT again after coming down with PFS. Iv done this with saw P and got worse so have others.
But what about actually decreasing Testosterone and letting it rise again?? Sounds stupid but there has to be a way to get receptors to work again or at least improve somewhat on their ability to do their thing
Hello 5 alpha, hope you are doing well, listen to me my friend, I have managed to get myself back to 60-80% of what I was before this happened. I am at 80 to 90% again, I am a unique case because I have extremely oily skin which was why I went on Avodart to begin with. So this is not just a receptor overload as when my system has this overload my oily skin slows down a lot, now at this point I don't crash completely, just about a 50% crash.
I can see myself coming back based on factors that are always the same, my body gives off pheromones, my skin gets oily, and of course the other stuff. I guess because my genetics are the way I am is why I get so horny, there is no limit to my orgasms, I mean it gets to be too much, but after what I have been through i'll not complain lol.
Listen to me 5 alpha, the problem is the alpha 5 reductase enzymes, I know this because it takes 5 days for your body to produce more, and when this "overload" occurs, my oily skin slows down a lot, the amount of oil my skin produces is mirrors how recovered I am. So your focus is on hormones, but this problem I am convinced is enzymic, because the 5 alpha reductase I (I think) enzyme produces sebum production. I don't believe this has to do with lowering DHT, I believe blocking the 5 alpha reductase enzymes causes some kind of problem in us. The good news is that you will recover in time, you just need to get on hormone replacement therapy.
You need to stop going to endocrinologists and find a HRT clinic, they are everywhere now, just google one, the doctors there put you on test no matter what your numbers are. When you inject testosterone, it doesn't work like natural testosterone, you get a huge dose that gradually peaks then declines by the end of the week and then you inject again. So if you were to test your testosterone on the day you inject, it would be ridiculously high and thus they have you take your test 5 days after injection.
So this large dose of testosterone is doing something, it is getting my body to produce more of these enzymes, jolting my system, or just plain and simply giving a helping hand to a weakened system. Stop trying to cure this with all these other methods and listen to me, I am very smart and you can read here that I got this syndrome and knew from day one I would defeat it. I know now this has nothing to do with Avodart being in my system as I recovered and then relapsed for a few days after a huge dose of test at once accidentally got into my system.
I believe the problem is that we only produce so much 5 alpha reductase enzymes, and they reduce testosterone to DHT, but there are functions probably that we don't understand and perhaps even modern medicine doesn't understand. So too much testosterone in a normal guy would just get more and more of the positive effects, I believe I have only so many 5 alpha reductase enzymes per week, when they are used up, that's when this happens.
I am doing fine now because my body is able to "process" the amount of testosterone I am injecting, but when it wasn't, I reverted back to PFS symptoms. In time you will recover, but with hormone replacement therapy, that time can be minimized. Let me remind you that for weeks, if not months, I was not responding to testosterone, it was having the opposite reaction. I would get depressed and think suicidal thoughts and just do the opposite of what it was supposed to do. Yet other aspects did stuff, like it prevented me from losing the muscle I had, I just couldn't really build much more till I recovered.
You see there is Praying To Heal on here who also has recovered from HRT (which he calls TRT), I suspect he has a shitty doctor and isn't doing it right which is why he calls it TRT and isn't fully recovered. It's that initial jolt of testosterone in your system that is what helps, your only way out of this is to do what I say. I also will mention HCG plays an important role in recovery, it was after my HCG injection that I started feeling recovered again.
I believe there is a receptor overload as well, I believe these 5 alpha inhibitors we took damaged our 5 alpha reductase enzyme production. We basically have been damaged, hormones will help to shock your system into recovery, and remember that natural hormones fluctuate. Give up on the natural hormones, it's not the same, even with good numbers, with HRT after the first shot testosterone must be at like 3000-4000 or something as it levels out and declines to like 950 on the 5th day for me. I will say that at those levels, I don't feel as amazing at all.
I just got my 69 year old dad on all of this, it changes his life for the better, if you do it right it is safe and in this case, either suffer or do it. You very well may react to the first injection perfectly, who knows, but I promise you one thing, without these hormones, I would be royally FUCKED from this condition. I just can't imagine what it would be like considering how great I feel on these hormones and how shitty I feel as they get low. I also want to add that I seem to require higher testosterone levels now than I did before this happened, that is consistent with what some doctor you guys have mentioned on this board said.
As my body is able to manufacture more 5 alpha reductase enzymes I will need less and less testosterone. I don't believe starving your receptors is going to help you, overloading them won't either. I believe this more has to do with the enzymes, if not, then how come when this overload happens my oily skin stops, yet my hormone levels are perfect (as I have had them tested, DHT as well!).
I can see why everyone on this site is against hormones, they made me feel like shit for 2 months or so, but then I recovered and feel great. You need something to restart the enzyme production, not starve and stop it even more, it is shut down and needs to be restarted. That is my theory as of now based on my experiences and all I know.
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You are entirely unaware of what other members have/have not tried and for what duration and I promise you that many have tried extended courses of HRT without success.
Don’t come here after having ‘possibly’ dealt with PFS for 1-2 months and pretend like you have answers for anyone especially when one day you are recovered and another day you are back to 50%.
I have read through this forum extensively, what do you consider an "extended course?" I am back to 80% recovered, this condition is manageable with hormones. I was on them before, during and after the crash, after 2 months I started to respond at 80% to hormones as before, but for the first 2 months I had an opposite reaction.
I recovered, 80% for me is more than 100% for most people as I tend to have a stronger libido, muscle building etc.. Than most guys, another guy here also has been on hormones and they have helped him recover, I have recovered and the time I reverted back to 50% was because I injected test and sat on it right after and a large dose got into my blood stream at once.
I can inly process so much test at once after this condition, and that amount increases every month, I have been responding normally to a normal dose of test. It took me 2 months to get to the ability to respond normally to a normal dose of testosterone. One other guy came in here and said he was on hormones and they didn't work, I asked him how long he was on them, he said 2 weeks.
It would take being on hormone replacement therapy for months to recover, and it won't feel good, it will feel shitty till your body recovers. I feel great again, amazing, like I did before this happened, but the condition is still there, I am managing it, I am certain without having been on hormones I would be screwed, it took time. Trust me, you can read my posts, but I have a top hormone doctor who is familiar with this and he told me I would recover on hormones and I did.
When I went down to 50% my body was acting like a normal guy's body off of testosterone with healthy testosterone levels. When I came back to normal my body responded to test like it used to which is extremely enhanced effects. I believe that high dose of test you get jolts your system gradually back working, I mean, my doctor has seen this before and seen all the guys recover with hormones. Find me one story on here of someone on HRT for at least 3 or 4 months with no improvement, Praying To Heal has posted here how hormones have helped him greatly.
You people are so quick to prove hormones worthless, I can't understand why.. They have recovered me to a normal healthy masculine life!
If im not 100 % , im 98 % seriously ozonetherapy did the trick for me, penis is 100% back on line , sensitivity is good , orgasm is beyond belif, hard rock erections like my penis is going to burst, purple veins vanished, I am feeling 100% in the moment right now, emotionally connected to the world and friends . I think im cured.
I was under the impression that HRT does not work. I have tried this myself and feel absolutely no better when I apply a T gel or have a T injection. I was given an injection of Nebido which sends the T level over 40nmol/L on the first injection. Our normal range is 8-34 nmol/L to give you an idea of how high 40 is. When I hit that 40 level I started to feel better and but my DHT level was already normal. But 40 is not a safe level to be at and it did not improve all my symptoms but it did reduce some. Going on HRT for months and shutting down your own T seems the wrong call and it doesn’t reboot you endocrine system like some have mentioned.Our endocrine system isn’t supposed to be rebooted, it’s supposed to stay on all the time so please don’t experiment with such ideas.
Can anyone confirm that they have been on testosterone and had a blood test to show that it has raised their testosterone level even if they don’t feel any better. If the T is not showing up in blood tests then it is not being absorbed through our androgen receptors, therefore these receptors whose number are determined by our DNA have been changed or damaged somehow. Dr Crisler talked about using high amounts of T to ‘shock’ or ‘wake up’ the androgen receptors but this theory has not worked. I am assuming that the receptors could have been desensitized and as of yet I’m not aware of any treatment that can reverse desensitized cells in the body. I hope that the latest studies due out next year shed some light on this idea. Also, if T is not being absorbed by the body then it is likely being excreted via our urine, so a urine test to detect testosterone would seem relevant.
I don’t think you ever had PFS as it is not something that goes away in a few weeks, especially when you were taking a wide range of hormones and other drugs at the start. When you come on this forum, pretend like you’ve read all 7 years of history and know what is going on, it undermines our credibility which we have fought for years to build.
You are saying you need to take HRT for months yet you recovered to 90% in 2 weeks such that you canceled your original doctor’s appointment?!
There are going to be dozens of stories of people who have tried HRT for months, possibly years, with no improvement. For one, I have been on it for a much longer period of time with minimal effects. As has been demonstrated by neurological testing - at least part of my injuries involve nerve dysfunction which is not affected at all by HRT.
We are not quick to “prove” hormones worthless. Many still are trying HRT and it is a worthwhile pursuit as perhaps some may benefit, especially if they were lucky enough to mistakenly believe they have PFS in the first place. The attitude towards HRT, while perhaps slightly too pessimistic, is based on nearly a decade of experimentation and experience and is not some random conclusion that was adopted to make an uneventful day more interesting.
I think it’s important to consider the fact that it’s reasonable to believe that the crash/on set of PFS can hit people on different ways. Some crashes more mild than others.
Justquitdut had a pfs crash, it’s obvious. His was just more mild than most of ours.
It’s important to compare his situation to my own and others to try to understand why his was more mild and why the pfs symptoms in his case went away (for the most part like he says).
One thing I wonder about have any of us went on hRT right after are crash? As in days right after?
I waited 8 months after my crash before trying TRT.
I think its very important the sooner u go on TRT after u crash… I think the longer u go without test the more messed up the symptoms are… I started TRT 2 months after i crashed… Im only on TRT and have been on it almost 10 months i am at about 90 percent of what i used to be… The mild ed i had then is almost gone completely…I can have sex every 2 days and i have hard erections and libido is there…
I never had PFS? Well I wish that was true because it has been 11 weeks since I took Avodart and I am still not back to normal. HRT is HELPING to manage my condition, I was on HRT before, during and after the crash, it took me 10 weeks to gradually feel better, I was 90% normal then crashed again, but this crash wasn’t as bad as the last.
Seems like my body is only able to produce so much 5 alpha reductase enzymes, it uses them to process testosterone, then I run out and crash. Then I produce a little more and test works, then I build back up to normal, I would say I am about 50 to 60% better than my original crash.
I do believe while HRT does not work like it should with this condition, it has tremendously helped.
Exactly Praying To Heal, these people are so quick to say we don't have PFS and while others have tried HRT here, one guy said he had testicular atrophy which means he wasn't doing enough HCG or doing it correctly. I know HRT is helping, it has been 11 weeks and I am a lot better than I was when I first crashed, if everyone here was on HRT this entire forum would be doing a lot better. Maybe not cured, but a lot better than they are, if it was being done correctly.
I know this because even if you guys all didn't have PFS, you are still older guys with hormonal deficiencies, keeping those optimal doesn't hurt. You may still suffer this condition, as I seem to be as well, but you will suffer less. I can orgasm multiple times in a day, currently my testosterone is peaking and I am getting lots of muscle twitches in my legs. When my test level goes down a bit to a mid range is when I feel optimal.
I am thinking of lowering my dose finally, I have not wanted to because even with testosterone working intermittently, it is keeping my muscle.
Second Ammendment, I understand your frustration, but please try to understand that all of you are still older males with natural hormone deficiencies, with or without PFS. My point is that on consistent HRT it may not cure PFS, but it will keep your hormone levels optimal which will make PFS a lot easier to endure.
I can't imagine what this would be like off HRT, and I do have PFS as I crashed again, but this time it was a lot less than the others. The HRT done the right way with the correct amount of HCG seems to make PFS not as bad as it would be off it. For example, these ups and downs would be far worse if my hormones weren't being artificially kept up.
PFS symptoms do somewhat coincide with Low test symptoms, many of you do have out of wack hormones. It has been 11 weeks now, I have had a lot of improvement, I was on HRT for 3 years before PFS hit me, during the crash and after, HRT stopped working after the crash. I would say it is working at about 50-70% now, depending on the day, the times my dose is at its highest is when I feel PFS effects, so I am thinking of lowering my dose.
I have tried not injecting test and things got far worse, HRT definitely somehow triggers the system to start working again. Please bare in mind, if the testosterone dose is too high, HRT will not work, it will make you feel like shit, I have experienced this. The key is finding the lowest dose that positively works and then over time your system will be able to handle more and more.
For example, I am currently still in a crash, my sex drive still works about 50%, muscles are at 50%, everything is at 50% as opposed to 0. For the standards of most men, and most here would be more than happy, we all just know our bodies. I do believe HRT is helping a lot, it has helped Praying To Heal as well, all of the posts of people who were on test all did the same thing, they took high doses.
I made the same mistake, I believe this condition is damage done to the 5 alpha reductase enzyme production, I am almost certain of this. Why else would my oily skin stop when a crash occurs? I know that my oily skin occurs because of 5 alpha reductase I or II (I forget which one). It takes about 5 days to produce more 5 alpha reductase enzymes, I feel better at about day 4 when I produce more. Testosterone is a huge burst of testosterone at once, in normal men they produce a lot of 5 alpha reductase to process it.
The concept is it levels out during the week, so if you simply can't produce enough 5 alpha reductase enzyme, then you have to inject less test. If I injected less test I would not notice PFS as much, but I since my body intermittently responds to test (I believe as I manufacture more 5 alpha reductase enzymes) I stay on the same dose of 1cc a week. I have a top hormone doctor and I am going to let him now about this and see what he thinks.
So far whenever this hits I feel good around Monday when I inject HCG, but I am 50%-60% better than my original crash, and as you guys know, that is a lot. My muscles could not hold any kind of pump after a workout, now they do, not as much as before PFS, but enough for me to be considered a buff guy. I am not going to say this is a cure yet, but it manages the condition, the key is finding the lowest dose that works for you, and that is kind of the opposite of what HRT doctors do.
You people who say I don't have PFS, I do, and I am recovering, if you would listen to me you would understand that you could all have some help with this in low doses. You yourself even stated that that doctor said you get better then revert to your PFS state, well, that same doctor also proposed high doses of test, I read some of his comments. Come Monday I will be about 80% better again, so this next week I am lowering my test dose, if this isn't PFS, then what the hell is it??? So far no one has been on hormones before during and after the crash, it seems I am the only one. Maybe that's why my experiences are different than others, no reason to insult, attack etc..
