I think it’s important to consider the fact that it’s reasonable to believe that the crash/on set of PFS can hit people on different ways. Some crashes more mild than others.
Justquitdut had a pfs crash, it’s obvious. His was just more mild than most of ours.
It’s important to compare his situation to my own and others to try to understand why his was more mild and why the pfs symptoms in his case went away (for the most part like he says).
One thing I wonder about have any of us went on hRT right after are crash? As in days right after?
I waited 8 months after my crash before trying TRT.
I think its very important the sooner u go on TRT after u crash… I think the longer u go without test the more messed up the symptoms are… I started TRT 2 months after i crashed… Im only on TRT and have been on it almost 10 months i am at about 90 percent of what i used to be… The mild ed i had then is almost gone completely…I can have sex every 2 days and i have hard erections and libido is there…
I never had PFS? Well I wish that was true because it has been 11 weeks since I took Avodart and I am still not back to normal. HRT is HELPING to manage my condition, I was on HRT before, during and after the crash, it took me 10 weeks to gradually feel better, I was 90% normal then crashed again, but this crash wasn’t as bad as the last.
Seems like my body is only able to produce so much 5 alpha reductase enzymes, it uses them to process testosterone, then I run out and crash. Then I produce a little more and test works, then I build back up to normal, I would say I am about 50 to 60% better than my original crash.
I do believe while HRT does not work like it should with this condition, it has tremendously helped.
Exactly Praying To Heal, these people are so quick to say we don't have PFS and while others have tried HRT here, one guy said he had testicular atrophy which means he wasn't doing enough HCG or doing it correctly. I know HRT is helping, it has been 11 weeks and I am a lot better than I was when I first crashed, if everyone here was on HRT this entire forum would be doing a lot better. Maybe not cured, but a lot better than they are, if it was being done correctly.
I know this because even if you guys all didn't have PFS, you are still older guys with hormonal deficiencies, keeping those optimal doesn't hurt. You may still suffer this condition, as I seem to be as well, but you will suffer less. I can orgasm multiple times in a day, currently my testosterone is peaking and I am getting lots of muscle twitches in my legs. When my test level goes down a bit to a mid range is when I feel optimal.
I am thinking of lowering my dose finally, I have not wanted to because even with testosterone working intermittently, it is keeping my muscle.
Second Ammendment, I understand your frustration, but please try to understand that all of you are still older males with natural hormone deficiencies, with or without PFS. My point is that on consistent HRT it may not cure PFS, but it will keep your hormone levels optimal which will make PFS a lot easier to endure.
I can't imagine what this would be like off HRT, and I do have PFS as I crashed again, but this time it was a lot less than the others. The HRT done the right way with the correct amount of HCG seems to make PFS not as bad as it would be off it. For example, these ups and downs would be far worse if my hormones weren't being artificially kept up.
PFS symptoms do somewhat coincide with Low test symptoms, many of you do have out of wack hormones. It has been 11 weeks now, I have had a lot of improvement, I was on HRT for 3 years before PFS hit me, during the crash and after, HRT stopped working after the crash. I would say it is working at about 50-70% now, depending on the day, the times my dose is at its highest is when I feel PFS effects, so I am thinking of lowering my dose.
I have tried not injecting test and things got far worse, HRT definitely somehow triggers the system to start working again. Please bare in mind, if the testosterone dose is too high, HRT will not work, it will make you feel like shit, I have experienced this. The key is finding the lowest dose that positively works and then over time your system will be able to handle more and more.
For example, I am currently still in a crash, my sex drive still works about 50%, muscles are at 50%, everything is at 50% as opposed to 0. For the standards of most men, and most here would be more than happy, we all just know our bodies. I do believe HRT is helping a lot, it has helped Praying To Heal as well, all of the posts of people who were on test all did the same thing, they took high doses.
I made the same mistake, I believe this condition is damage done to the 5 alpha reductase enzyme production, I am almost certain of this. Why else would my oily skin stop when a crash occurs? I know that my oily skin occurs because of 5 alpha reductase I or II (I forget which one). It takes about 5 days to produce more 5 alpha reductase enzymes, I feel better at about day 4 when I produce more. Testosterone is a huge burst of testosterone at once, in normal men they produce a lot of 5 alpha reductase to process it.
The concept is it levels out during the week, so if you simply can't produce enough 5 alpha reductase enzyme, then you have to inject less test. If I injected less test I would not notice PFS as much, but I since my body intermittently responds to test (I believe as I manufacture more 5 alpha reductase enzymes) I stay on the same dose of 1cc a week. I have a top hormone doctor and I am going to let him now about this and see what he thinks.
So far whenever this hits I feel good around Monday when I inject HCG, but I am 50%-60% better than my original crash, and as you guys know, that is a lot. My muscles could not hold any kind of pump after a workout, now they do, not as much as before PFS, but enough for me to be considered a buff guy. I am not going to say this is a cure yet, but it manages the condition, the key is finding the lowest dose that works for you, and that is kind of the opposite of what HRT doctors do.
You people who say I don't have PFS, I do, and I am recovering, if you would listen to me you would understand that you could all have some help with this in low doses. You yourself even stated that that doctor said you get better then revert to your PFS state, well, that same doctor also proposed high doses of test, I read some of his comments. Come Monday I will be about 80% better again, so this next week I am lowering my test dose, if this isn't PFS, then what the hell is it??? So far no one has been on hormones before during and after the crash, it seems I am the only one. Maybe that's why my experiences are different than others, no reason to insult, attack etc..
Isn’t this interesting, this explains why I feel better after I inject HCG, HCG has been shown in this study to be a precursor to 5 alpha reductase enzymes. It’s no coincidence I feel better every time I inject HCG, it produces the 5 alpha reductase enzymes that my body needs to process testosterone!
and about 12 hours after HCG injection I feel testosterone working again, if you check my posts, HCG has always made me feel better. It is no coincidence, it is a precursor to the 5 alpha reductase enzyme, I believe this alone could be a treatment/cure.
5 alpha, read my latest new thread, I believe I am onto something, this is a result of a damage to the body’s ability to produce 5 alpha reductase enzymes. I started a thread on it, if you remember back, I always wrote that I feel better after HCG injections. HCG is a precursor to 5 alpha reductase enzymes, you should go on HCG alone, you will feel much better. I believe I will recover in time, having optimal hormone levels while going through this certainly isn’t a bad thing, I seem to be doing much better than everyone else here. On my worst days when I am 1/10th of what I am on my best, I am still functional and all, just weakened a lot in every way.
This week I am going to do something I have yet to do, lower my testosterone, the key is to find a dose that can stabilize me in the immediate future. I believe my body could tolerate half the dose, in time as I recover more I can increase it, anyway, if I were fully I recovered I would never be able to tolerate the normal dose I am currently on, I would break out too bad.
5 alpha, you have good hormone levels and yet you are suffering, so that does make me wonder if the hormones are helping me recover. I do believe so for sure that with this condition it is better to be on them than off, that dr Crisler or whatever his name is theorized that higher doses could jolt the system back into working, well, perhaps not overnight, but over time, maybe. It has been 11 long weeks, but I have recovered quite a bit, even my set backs have been less and less than the previous ones.
CONCLUSION, I believe I am onto a conclusion here, I believe at this point that PFS is an injury to the 5 alpha reductase enzyme creation. Once these enzymes are either blocked or not being manufactured enough, we crash. It takes 5 days to create them, we store up a supply, a surge of testosterone hits and we feel good at first till the enzymes are used up to reduce testosterone to DHT. The DHT regulates estrogen, when we run out of these 5 alpha reductase enzymes, our body is no longer converting testosterone to DHT, the result is low DHT and high testosterone which is then being aromatized by the body causing high estrogen levels.
When I inject testosterone, I could not understand why at first I felt good and then at the peak I crashed, then felt good as the testosterone was low on the 5th day. I know now, testosterone injections hit you hard with a high dose that then levels out, in normal men they produce lots of 5 alpha reductase enzymes which reduce the testosterone to DHT. There are 3 enzymes, 1, 2, and 3, 3 is responsible for visual and nuerological stuff, 1 and 2 for muscle and libido and sebum production, probably collagen is affected, we don’t really know what happens when all these enzymes are blocked or they are not being produced enough or normally.
So I felt cured only 1.5 weeks ago, for 2 weeks, the week before that I took half a dose of testosterone, my body was able to handle it, I had enough enzymes, they were not exhausted. The supply was able to replenish, and I felt good, then I injected a full dose the following week and felt a huge amazing DHT feeling for 2 weeks. I exhausted my supply and felt a crash, I am feeling testosterone again on the 6th and 7th day when it is low, but my body has been able to produce enough enzymes to reduce it to DHT.
If tomorrow I inject a full dose, I will feel great for a day or two till I run out of the enzyme, I do know I am much better now than I was 12 weeks ago when I crashed first. I have been progressively getting better thanks (I believe to HRT). HRT does induce the creation of these enzymes, I might also add HCG is a precursor to 5 alpha reductase (at least in rat studies), it is always after I inject HCG that I feel good again.
Reports of HCG have brought improvement in some guys on here I hear, one said it cured him, the key to getting better may be to induce the system to create more 5 alpha reductase enzymes. The only way I know of is HCG, then a low dose of testosterone, not enough to overwhelm the body’s compromised ability to produce the 5 alpha reductase enzyme. Many men here have low testosterone, but if they go to get it treated, they will get a dose too high to help, their body will reduce it with all the 5 alpha reductase enzymes they have, they will feel like shit, or feel nothing, and quit.
However, what if you guys go and get on hormone replacement therapy, if your testosterone levels are normal, just use HCG, if your test is low, go on HCG first and then when you start to feel it, you can go on a low tiny dose of test, till you find the dose your body can handle every week. It may be that HCG alone is enough for most of you, HCG boosts natural testosterone production, but it is the 5 alpha reductase enzyme that is the key here.
I believe that I can control PFS, so far I have been able to, I do believe hormones may lesson the amount of time it takes to recover. Many of you know that I am the only known case that was on HRT before, during, and after the crash. It shut off my hormones from working at first, but it was after I took a lot of Avodart, it blocked the 5 alpha reductase enzyme. I kept taking a normal dose as my HRT doctor told me, every week, getting a little better every week slowly as he said.
During that time I experimented with lots of hormones and doses, I have access to a lot of stuff and have extensive knowledge in hormones and well versed in medicine. I am the former vp of a very famous anti aging and cosmetic surgery company. Whenever I injected low doses I felt great, but then I wanted the full dose feeling, and I would always crash when I did that. My hormone doctor agrees that I should try a low dose, or skip a week, I already know that will work, I believe I found a way to manage this condition, as you recover your ability to produce these enzymes, you can handle more testosterone.
Whether HRT will help PFS recover quicker or not is speculation, but it will make you feel much better when done as I say, I can attest to that myself. Praying to Heal can as well, tell me guys, what do you think of this theory? If this isn’t it, I can’t imagine what else could be.
Sucks to hear about your relapse in some of your improvements. But sounds like for most part you are still doing pretty good.
I agree that this whole thing is over damaged 5ar function.
Have you came up with any theories as to why DHT medications won’t help?
In other words Ok fine so we can’t process are testosterone because of are limited ability to reduce it to DHT but what about why already reduced DHT, why do you think this does not work?
Do you think that are bodies ability to use DHT is one in the same as are body’s ability to reduce it?
One of the things I was talking about in it was if inorder for are prostates for example to “use” DHT if it actually needs to produce DHT on it’s own. In other words are prostates won’t or can’t use DHT we put in are bodies for normal sexualy function.
5 alpha, I find that doctors cannot follow my knowledge base, I think I even took my hormone doctor for a spin and the ego of doctors prevents them from accepting the patient may know more. I have been friends with many doctors my whole life and they all have this problem. I have figured out what PFS for the most part, and I have a treatment protocol.
PFS is damage to the body’s ability to produce 5AR enzymes consistently, or at all, or it is a blockage to those enzymes. You are a little off and perhaps it was a mistake on your part or maybe you don’t fully understand, which I don’t blame you as my doctor had trouble following. I think because this stuff you learn in medical school and rarely use it in medical practice.
The 5AR enzymes reduce TESTOSTERONE to DHT, each enzyme has a purpose, the 5AR enzyme I, II, and III, read what each enzyme does. They have functions in the body, so the problem is not directly DHT nor is it testosterone, it is a disruption to production of these enzymes. These enzymes as they reduce testosterone to DHT do other things, so you can put DHT in your body, but you still will be lacking these enzymes and thus you will suffer from a 5AR deficiency, there are no known natural deficiencies of the 5AR III and also either the I or the II, there is one natural condition lacking one of the 2, but I forget which one.
HCG has been used to help babies that have these deficiencies and it is recovering me, I have finally come up with a protocol. The key is HCG, adding testosterone on top of HCG is a struggle as you need enough 5AR enzymes to reduce it to DHT, remember that a compromise to the reduction of 5AR to DHT means the testosterone gets aromatized (which explains more symptoms). I read another study that HCG is a precursor to 5AR enzymes in rats. I found that with HCG 500 units 3 times a week, I am able to support a certain amount of testosterone injections. My pumped muscle look is starting to return, the key all along was a low dose of testosterone and extra HCG.
I am a firm believer that HCG used as mono therapy will be the best bet for all guys with this condition, once you get your 5AR activity back up and running, then you can get on test if you want. The key is that an injection of test works like this, you get a huge dose at once that levels out and lowers and lowers till your next dose. In normal men they would just produce lots of 5AR enzymes to reduce the testosterone to DHT, in men with this condition, we will feel good up until our 5AR enzymes run out. That means for a period of hours, days or even weeks.
It takes the body probably a week to produce more of these enzymes, this explains a lot. This is why people seem to get better on hormones then worse, their body is reducing the testosterone to DHT and giving all the effects of the three alpha 5 reductase enzymes. Then the enzymes get depleted, a condition that doesn’t exist in men, in normal men they just produce more and more of these enzymes and reduce and reduce the testosterone to DHT.
So the problem isn’t DHT directly, these symptoms are coming from the body not doing the things it normally does when those 5 AR enzymes are working. The 5 alpha reductase 3 enzyme if you read what it does, you will see that it deals with neurological and visual stuff, that explains those weird symptoms some guys have. All along I thought it was the hormones making me better, it kinda was, it was the HCG, had I been on a very low dose of testosterone, I would have been able to be normal and get by.
The time I wrote here that I was recovered, I had injected half my normal dose the preceding week, my body then had the time and ability to build up excess 5AR enzymes. Then I injected a full dose, again at once, felt almost cured, did it again the next week, felt good again, then towards the middle of that week symptoms occurred as I crashed because I ran out of these enzymes.
All along if you read my research and experiences, I noted that I always felt better with HCG, but I was always on a high dose of testosterone. So HCG gave me a boost in 5AR activity that made me feel better only to start reducing my test and quickly exhaust my supply. Also I felt better when I injected test, so injecting testosterone and taking DHEA, these types of things also seem to induce 5AR activity, but HCG seems to actually be the key to recovery.
Large doses are used on infants that suffer from deficiencies of the 5AR 1 and 2 enzyme, it has been shown to induce 5AR activity in rats. In time the body should recover and produce more and more 5AR enzymes, the HCG will boost your testosterone, that is what it does, so it will naturally make you feel better. Then if you need to go on testosterone, you have to find the lowest possible dose that works till your body builds up more and more.
The lack of these enzymes over time may be what is causing some of the more severe symptoms. The only report on someone from this forum that used HCG and nothing else, he said he was cured and never returned. HCG can be purchased online from other countries for like $150, you need the injectable kind, start out with 500MCG 3 times a week, increase till you feel as good as you can. I haven’t experimented with higher doses of HCG without being on testosterone.
I am currently managing my condition and reversing all the symptoms with HCG and a LOW dose of testosterone. If you keep crashing from testosterone, then your body simply cannot produce enough 5AR to support it, so the key is to keep taking HCG till you are better. I believe in time it will actually cure you, I say that because there have been lots of people who came here and healed on their own.
Anyone on this forum who doesn’t try HCG is doing a great disservice to themselves, I don’t know if it will help everyone, but it should help a lot of people, if not everyone. Please try this therapy, alone with nothing else. You will also note the guys on this forum who were on TRT had no good results, but the guys on HRT had intermittent results, that is consistent with my theory as they are on HCG as part of their HRT therapy.
So I am better, everything is working, my muscles are pumped again, right now on this therapy, I am recovered. I can’t call it recovery though, because I can’t handle a full dose of testosterone, but I can handle a small dose and I look and feel great finally again, and as time goes by I am sure I will be able to handle a larger dose. Plus, HCG boosts your own natural testosterone, so you won’t need as much anyway.
The irony is that I can’t handle a higher dose than this anyway or I will break out, if you saw me I look like a buff muscular guy. When I go through a crash I would look like an athletic guy as all my muscles just shrink, it is weird, so people are surprised when they see me change so much from week to week lol. Everyone get HCG!!!
IV VITAMIN INJECTION, my doctor suggested IV vitamins today, a new therapy where they hook up an IV filled with vitamins that goes through your whole system. I suspect this PFS causes vitamin deficiencies as I feel like myself again for the first time, but it could just be the HCG. If you can find this vitamin therapy, you should try it, it cost me $100 for the vitamin IV and $45 for the antioxidants, I thought it was total bullshit, I didn't believe it would help me at all. It did though, I feel great, but most of why I feel great is the HCG.
LATEST NEWS, I AM POSTING THIS FROM ANOTHER THREAD, VERY IMPORTANT DISCOVERY
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The OP has proven a point consistent with my theories, that this condition is damage to the body’s ability to produce the 5AR enzymes. I have ordered the TRIBULUS, but I had my assistant pickup asparagus for me, as someone here said it helped them greatly. I investigated, and asparagus is high in Protodioscin, it all made sense now, the 2 weeks I was 90% better, responding to my hormones 90%, that previous week I had eaten a lot of asparagus! So I ate raw asparagus and I started responding to my testosterone injections as I should, this is not something that is in my mind. My muscle size increased immensely, my skin oily, water retention gone, I got hit on all night tonight, several girls hit on me, and I was asked what was different about me. Clearly, my testosterone started working consistently all night after I ate this asparagus.
So I researched further only to find that Protodioscin is a precursor of 5AR enzymes! I am posting the article below. This is not a cure, that is why it has not cured him consistently, we will need this regularly to continue to release 5AR enzymes, also those that do not have good hormone levels will need to get them optimal with HRT. So if this did not work for any of you, do you have low testosterone? I am amazed at the recovery I experienced in a matter of hours after eating Asparagus raw, a lot of them.
Protodioscin acts by stimulating the enzyme 5-alpha-reductase, which plays a role in the conversion of testosterone into dihydrotestosterone (Viktorof et al. 1994). In addition, protodioscin also stimulates the hypothalamus secretion of luteinizing hormone (LH), [/i]
The OP started Dutasteride at 06 June 2014, and quited the drug at 14 June.
He started this topic just 3 days after, 17 June 2014. He claims he might have found a cure, and he found root cause of pfs.
First, you can’t experience a crash within 2-3 days after you quit. It’s so soon. Assuming that you experienced it, on your crash you can’t even get up from your bed, my first days i can’t even remember who am i. Second, did you find cure for 3 days? Meanwhile the top doctors can’t find even footprints of cause. It makes no sense.
I don’t get why you make posts trying to challenge people’s theories.
Do you have anything useful to add?
Other than complaining?
We took drugs that attack the 5 alpha reductase function in are body’s. This is a fact.
It’s also a fact we get long term sexual sides.
Is it really hard to believe that are problems are connected with limited 5 alpha reductase function. Have we lost common sense?
If you don’t believe it than go on another thread. But whatever you do don’t sit here and knock this guys theory because you don’t know what else to do with your time
I have been taking 100 mg of DHEA every day for the last 6 days. I have been getting acne and my dick gets harder.
This syndrome most deff has somthing to do with DHT and are bodies ability to produce it.
