you guys without reading full story just throw away every thing. Very bad attitude.
He used some over the counter supp some two years ago and suffered from all kinds of sexual and physical symptoms like us.
He has been on TRT for long and is failing to get benefits.
Before making comments, it better to read the full story , if don’t understand go and read his posts.
I read the thread that you linked.
Just a quick update on this:
I think the discovery that the body can naturally produce antibodies against androgens and androgen producing enzymes is significant. It would cause the symptoms and the crash. In fact many endocrine diseases are also autoimmune diseases, thyroid disorders being just one.
It is more likely that we have autoantibodies directed against 5aR or 3aHSD than either of these enzymes being permanently damaged by Finasteride, or autoantibodies directed againt DHT or the Androgen Receptor itself than an epigenetic change to the AR causing androgen resistance.
…
I thought this was something to look into so I contacted a lab that has researched these things and some academics i have contacted in the past for help. I even emailed awor. I have recieved no reply. Therefore this idea probably wont get tested for anytime soon.
If there were antibodies to DHT or 5AR wouldn’t you expect the body try to compensate via increased testosterone production?
Are you suggesting there are antibodies to 5AR causing inflammation in those tissues leading to decreased production of testosterone. We don’t generally all have abnormal testosterone values and we don’t respond to testosterone.
Anyways again i feel it warrants investigation.
Yes. Like when taking Finasteride. But anti-AR antibodies would not.
^See the posts above about increases in LH and why this may not happen.
No, I have never mentioned anything like this. These antibodies do not result in inflammation.
This is all I am saying:
Anti-DHT autoantibodies cancel out the effects of DHT (a natural antiandrogen)
Anti-5aR (or 3aHSD) autoantibodies inhibit the enzyme? (ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2229323)
Anti-Androgen Receptor autoantibodies acts as an antiandrogen. May also behave like an androgen, downregulate the AR ( jcem.endojournals.org/content/82/10/3464.long)
Why would it?
Ok suppose we have anti androgen receptor, 5AR or DHT anti bodies then what?I mean what is their treatment? immuno suppressors or anti antibodies?
[Size=4]Just some more ideas on this:[/size]
Im interested in why hairloss should still happen, its amazing how one person can have this yet lose everything else. This is a problem for any theory that suggests androgens are not working.
With anti-DHT (& anti-5aR?) antibodies you might expect sexual symptoms with little hairloss.
I have been looking into anti-AR antibodies, and how these might fit in with my own problems. Hairloss yet no androgenicity.
According to Autoimmune anti-androgen-receptor antibodies in human serum (1985) ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3866227 these AR antibodies are commonly found in the normal healthy population. It also shows that the amounts get higher with age – but the amount discussed are 10k smaller than an nmol, so impossible to draw conclusions as to what effects they have.
Importantly it does show that sex dependent tissue (the prostate, effected by Finasteride) can be the source of high levels of circulating anti-AR antibodies. Which fits in with the narrative.
What I really want to know is can anti-AR autoantibodies cause hairloss but inhibit other androgen mediated functions at the same time?
In Characterization of Thyrotropin Receptor Antibody-Induced Signaling Cascades (2008) ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2630889/ there is a discussion about the effects of Thyroid stimulating hormone receptor (TSHR) antibodies and their effect on the TSH receptor. They studies the effects of TSHR-stimulating, TSHR-blocking and TSHR-neutral antibodies.
In particular it shows that even antibodies blocking the effect of a hormone may, themselves, initiate a signalling cascade at the receptor (something along the lines of a SARM?).
Therefore, anti-AR antibodies must effect the Androgen Receptor as an agonist that induces a molecular cascade that only effects hair, and/or it must be hair cells that are uniquely effected by anti-AR antibodies. I suppose in a high enough dose this could cause all-over diffuse hairloss and even new body hair.
Interestingly it also says this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allosteric_regulation
Sounds far fetched, but, anti-receptor antibodies can also act as inverse agonists may be one reason for getting worse with androgen supplementation, as opposed to more antibodies being produced.
What about in cases such as myself where my hair-loss has halted?
See the third line of my last post.
I am not trying to describe what has happened to everyone.
Mostly I am trying to explain things like the ‘crash’, muscle loss and anhedonia - and why this occurs with continual hairloss (or does not occur as the case may be). The same mechanism described above may or may not apply to some people or it may apply to everyone.
Nor am I attempting to explain how these antibodies may come about. Only that they do exist, they are naturally produced, have caused diseases in the past and are closely associated with the parts of the body effected by Finasteride.
I believe with hairloss it is caused by dht “building up” in the scalp, causing inflammation, then the immune system attacks the hair follicles?
If it is, then for some reason some members immune system’s have gone back to doing this and some haven’t …
Why?
Turns out anti- 5aR antibodies might not actually prevent the synthesis of Testosteone to Dihydrotestosterone via 5aR.
In other autoimmune diseases I cannot find evidence that antibodies directed at an enzyme directly prevents the production of hormones. There may be indirect prevention, as in Addisons disease (AD) where there is destruction of the adrenal cortex caused by an immune reaction against the enzyme 21-hydroxylase (21-OH), but this is not due to inhibition of the enzyme by antibodies.
Autoimmune Adrenal Insufficiency and Autoimmune Polyendocrine Syndromes: Autoantibodies, Autoantigens, and Their Applicability in Diagnosis and Disease Prediction edrv.endojournals.org/content/23/3/327.long
What effects anti-enzyme antibodies may have, and what downstream effects this may actually cause is complicated and varied. They can induce apoptosis, or prevent cells from working properly.
Not sure what this means to us. Only that it has a different potential than originally thought as part of this illness.
This is very confusing, a member who used dutasteride has posted blood test results that include top of the range fsh/lh and 3adiol-g.
could you please give it here.
This thread is about the Post-Finasteride Syndrome as an Autoimmune Endocrine Disorder.
I found a video where Dr Shippen discusses the three different types of hypothyroidism he sees (youtube.com/watch?v=o4IRMnRmZpk&feature=relmfu), which includes thyroid resistance.
It is interesting to note what the experts think may cause thyroid resistance (building on the earlier post by tim);
On commonness and rarity of thyroid hormone resistance: a discussion based on mechanisms of reduced sensitivity in peripheral tissues ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17383828
If so with thyroid hormones (t3) why not with testosterone?
By the way, im not necessarily saying we are resistant to thyroid hormones too. Although that would explain a lot of thyroid-like symptoms many members have, despite normal test results (myself included).
Anti-nuclear antibodies (ANAs) may not be the best test for this as they havent been present in similar autoimmune endocrine disorders.
Autoantibody against testosterone in a woman with hypergonadotropic hypogonadism
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9435409
good efforts Oscar.
I have a close buddy who swears he suffers from “PFS”. Admittedly, he does have all of the exact same issues as us, but his issues came about directly during/after having pharyngitis for a week. The guy was the voted best athlete at our high school, then this turned him into what he calls “an a sexual zombie”. Testosterone has not helped at all, he has seen many of the same doctors that I have including doctor Crisler, but just like us no1 can explain it.
Anyways, that whole story has sort of always made me think that it is possible that an auto-immune or antibody reaction is the cause of this. I can’t even begin to imagine how/where to look into this though.
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There’s another website called hardflaccid.org and many of the people there suffer similar symptoms to us in regard to sexual side effects. Their penis goes numb, it stays hard/rubbery, and they have no sex drive. They got it from doing penis exercises or I’m guessing over masturbation. I’m guessing what they have is inflammation… and it seems like what a lot of people have here as well.