Testosterone, dihydrotestosterone or 5ar2 antibodies.

General Discussion
#1

This theory is based on a really good post by Oscar.

Im quite simple in knowledge of the human body, but the way i understand it is when something that was missing come back, dht, 5ar2 the body then saw it as a outside invader, disabling and rendering it usless but still appearing “there” in blood tests.

I wonder if what jn has actually stumbled upon is he has used hydrocortisone, which has suppressed the immune system somewhat while supplementing androgen.

Another interesting piece of info that i just skimed across, sorry no links, is that thyroid meds, and antibiotics, (two things that a few people have had a little bit of luck with) also suppress the immune system.
That also reminds me of the user dury who was on thyroid medication and raised testosterone via clomid.
This could also be linked with the abnormilities some people have had in their white blood cell test results, along with low free testosterone which many have.

Please if anyone has any further information or thoughts on this can you please post.

Also can we please keep this thread away from leaky gut, parasites, candidia etc.

#2

i know that you said keep this thread away from infection, etc…but i just want to point out that antibodies to certain infections can attach to different receptors. so for this reason you should not only look at 5AR antibodies that specifically see 5ar itself as the threat.

for example…the antibody we produce for step. can attach to dopamine receptors causing PANDAS

#3

Moving on.

#4

is there a way to tests for 5ar2 antibodies?

#5

I discussed this before. google and you will find some companies in USA,UK are selling DHT,testosterone and 5 AR anti bodies.

#6

Yes, judging by the studies t and 5ar tests exist, i assume dht is able to be tested aswell. The problem is how hard it is to find these tests and what the cost is.

#7

Before JN’s recent change he was n t3 and testosterone too.

#8

I find this idea of autoantibodies interesting. It is very testable as well. Can anyone find somewhere that can test for 5 alpha reductase type 1 antibodies?

If so we can quickly rule it out if its not relevant.

#9

I dont think such a test is normally commercially available outside of a University - and it would have to be a specific test looking for these autoantibodies (see the Autoantibody against Testosterone in a Woman with Hypergonadotropic Hypogonadism paper).

Therefore it would oviously be good if someone like awor or 40 thought that there was some something here worth checking, or somebody else with such contacts.

Either way it is absolutely worth checking.

I think such an autoimmune reaction as a result of Finasteride is an attractive idea because it would explain the rarity of permanent side effects and their variabilty, also an immune problem is a disease process which can persist. Plus it can get worse after stopping, as I posted here: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=5550&p=43729#p43729.

I suppose a lot of this theory depends on what exactly anti-5aR2 autoantibodies will do.

As far as Anti-DHT autoantibodies are concerned they would presumably also act as a natural anti-androgen. Since it will be produced locally it would also stop the activity of T & DHT in sex dependent tissue which will lead to side-effects in the first place. This would lead to low 3aDiolG. I suppose if there are enough anti-DHT autoantibodies in the blood it would stop the activity of androgens anywhere, causing side effects like muscle loss.

The problems with anti-DHT autoantibodies are 1. Wouldnt start on Finasteride? (although perhaps this is something to do with finasteride’s interaction with the 5aR2?) 2. No raised LH/FSH, which was the case in the research paper. 3. Hairloss continues (although there is a relation between, DHT, the immune system, inflammation and hairloss).

#10

This is really interesting … ghbs effect on the immune system.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20456291

Alcohol will suppress the immune system, many have reported temporary improvements.

pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh26-4/257-263.htm

Marijuana will also suppress, i can personally attest that weed brings back libido and i get a throbbing bonner, its hard to know about brain fog, cause well im stonned :blush:

Could, just speculating here, but is the reason why some (us) get long term side effects after quitting because of some variation in our immune system?

19, sorry i may be missing something really obvious but why would we test for 5ar1 antibodies? Thanks

Nyer has just made thread about having a brief recovery after under going huge emotional stress. Stress will supress the immune system by raising cotisol.

#11

I find this study really interesting, although it is about thyroid hormone antibodies it has things in it.

[Size=4]Abstract[/size]

In 20 out of 94 cases of selected patients suffering from various thyroid diseases antibodies against thyroxine and trijodthyronine were detected. The patients were striking either because of a disturbed thyroid feed back mechanism or by the need of an increased dosage of L-thyroxine (500 microgram) for treatment. Other patients had inappropriate thyroid hormone levels not correlated to the clinical situation. Thyroid hormone-antibodies were detected using a skin test with synthetic hormones leading to an Arthus like reaction. This method turned out to be specific but not as sensitive as antibody determination by a radioimmunological technique. Hormone antibodies were reproducably detected only, when the antibodies were precipitated by anti-Ig. Using PEG or (NH4)2SO4 for antibody precipitation also other proteins such as albumin and prealbumin were found in the sediment. These proteins are able to bind thyroid hormones as well and therefore the measured activity of labelled hormones does not correspond to the selective antibody reaction with the hormone. With regard to the clinical relevance of these hormone autoantibodies it is important, to which sites of the hormones the antibodies combine. Treatment is only necessary, when patients show hypothyroid symptoms. L-thyroxin may be necessary in higher dosage than usually needed. In 4 cases therapy even with corticosteroids had to be used in order to suppress antibody production or action.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6453826

Things that come to mind are that generally we have "normal amounts of circulating androgens for doctors to think we are ok.
Dustin as far as i know is having success with a huge dose of testosterone.
Although this is thyroid hormone it does show that the immune system does attack hormones and in some cases corticosteroids had to be used.

Makes me wonder what would have happened if i had have taken testosterone with my round of prednisolone.

#12

Indications suggest that it would be dht antibodies which are the problem, which makes the most sense as it was the thing “gone”… if this is the problem. People who take testosterone either report

  1. A breif recovery then tapering away or
  2. Benifit in things like muscle, beard growth, things that are t dependent, no dht dependent benifits or
  3. Feel worse or
  4. Dustin taking 600mg a week with on going benifits, as far as i know, for some reason he deleted all his posts :unamused:

Or people who have benifits from anti estrogen/aromatase inhibitors, more t is getting converted to dht, then the postives dwindle away to nothing

This idea of antibodies against dht could mess up all sorts of feedback loops. It would also cause a problem at the receptor as in the hormone would not be able to bind, re thyroid study above.

Now the second thing i have thought about over night is why i crashed on the drug where some or possibly the majority crash after quitting.
Crohns disease is a possibility. I was still swallowing the pills but maybe they were not being digested/absorbed properly … malabsorbtion from crohns is well documented.
This is truley just a guess though.
Another reason why we gain sides on fin, well isn’t this just what is expected during androgen deprivation therapy?

#13

Yes. See the linked PDFs and image excerpts on propeciahelp.com/symptoms

Finasteride is a form of androgen deprivation therapy. The sexual, physical and neurological side effects of ADT are well known and documented, so this is really not a mystery. The mystery is why these issues persist after discontinuation of Finasteride in a subset of men (us). Hopefully the molecular investigation into PFS in Italy will be able to shed more light.

#14

Yes, the half-formed ideas in this thread (and here viewtopic.php?f=27&t=5550 ) are an attempt to explain the mysterious problems caused by finasteride, these being;

Getting worse after stopping Fin.
Negative reaction to TRT (or perhaps a transient positive reaction)
Muscle Loss
Why some people suffer persistent side effects at all?

I dont think the ideas here necessarily replace the suggestion that androgen deprevation can cause symptoms or leave serious and permanent side effects, on the contrary if our bodies have developed autoantibodies to DHT or 5aR2 it may result in continued androgen deprevation.

#15

Yes it would leave us with an on going form of aquired androgen insensitivity.
Oscar is right after having a brief recovery, length depending on how long the 5ar2 takes to regenerates, and how “aggressive” your immune system is, you would be left with the ongoing effects of androgen deprivation, without actually physically doing anything to depribe your body of androgens.
It could actually be a type of “phantom dht” :wink:

Now in terms of hairloss continuing this has the potential to debunk any theory, but again oscar is right that there is an immune system connection here, along with, propecia is only meant to stop your hair falling out/regrowing on a certian part of the head.
Personally i only loose about 20% of the hair i did pre fin, that is about the % i feel post fin compared to pre.

Mew do you have any information on the range of time 5a2 is expected to regenerate after quitting finasteride. eg 2 weeks to 2 months? Thanks

#16

This theory would also account for low adiol-g readings.

Dhts effect on muscles … pulled from another thread …

jme.endocrinology-journals.org/content/36/2/247.short

It is interesting that dht has an effect on skeletal muscles.

So to sum up, i think the evidence suggests that our own bodies are rejecting our own 5ar2 reduced or introduced dihydrotestosterone, of course there is a molecular study going on and i could be way off.

#17

I can only speak for myself; but I am diffusely losing hair, including from the back and sides of my head, i have grown body hair in new locations since quitting (I was hirstute to start off with) yet body hair i had before is thinner, and my pubic hair is falling out too. Therefore something is interacting with my hair.

I’ll post a few links to studies I found on this subject before i forget. I dont really understand them, they dont mention anti-5aR2 either. But they do mention interactions with the AR which may tie in with awor’s findings.

Autoimmune anti-androgen-receptor antibodies in human serum.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3866227

Androgen receptors: structures, mutations, antibodies and cellular dynamics
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2626035

Antibody and T-cell responses specific for the androgen receptor in patients with prostate cancer
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17879963

Monoclonal antibodies against the androgen receptor: recognition of human and other mammalian androgen receptors.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2454813

#18

There needs to be a serious investigation here.
Personally i think we need to look dht autoantibodies first, then go into receptors and 5ar2 antibodies if nothing shows up.

#19

Is there a future study that can look at 5AR/DHT antibodies?

If we have in fact developed an autoimmune response, is there treatment? Would taking immuno-suppresives work? If it did, would this be something we would have to take for the rest of our lives?

I know that if you want to “reboot” your immune system you have to undergo chemotherapy to erase your immune system and then inject donor bone marrow stem cells…

#20

how do you know this? do you have study or link?