Soy discussion (Varility Paradox topic)


#61

Both types of side effects can be explained by overexpressed ARs. There is plenty of evidence that overexpressed ARs are present in PFS victims. I am not aware of any evidence with regard to underexpressed ARs.


#62

In this study, finasteride decreased the expression of epithelial androgen receptor in a tissue specific manner. The correlation between epithelial androgen receptor and the extent of luminal epithelial atrophy suggests that epithelial androgen receptor may be directly regulating the atrophic effects observed with finasteride treatment.

Finasteride treatment significantly decreases the expression of AR in epithelial cells of the human prostate. Additionally, using two newly developed formulas, we found that finasteride treatment also leads to an increase in luminal epithelial atrophy and basal cell hyperplasia in patients with BPH. The correlation between luminal epithelial atrophy and epithelial AR expression suggests that epithelial AR may be one key player in modulating the decrease in prostate volume that results from finasteride treatment.

AR is expressed in almost all primary prostate cancers and most castration-resistant prostate cancers however, AR expression loss in prostate tumor cells has been reported.

The continued clinical progression to castration-resistant prostate cancer (CRPC) is driven by sustained AR signaling, under seemingly “starved” androgen conditions (2). Furthermore, this androgen starvation (via ADT) is associated with significant side effects that include erectile dysfunction and severely compromised metabolic function.

I apologize in advance if I’m missing something, I’m not too savvy when it comes to biological terminology, but I’ve read plenty of evidence suggesting that Finasteride causes AR to go dormant.


#63

Then I must have type 3. Cause sometimes I get better from increasing androgens, sometimes worse. I have a very small range where I feel good, a bit too much DHT or a bit too less and I crash.


#64

Try increasing DHT with creatine (or anything that raises androgens for that matter), if you respond unambiguously positively then you’re type 1, if negatively or just somewhat then you’re type 2

@Invictus

Yes, admittedly even the type 1, type 2 concept is not a perfect classification of PFS symptoms, and as you imply there are people who fall somewhere in between. That being said, I think the two tier classification system does provide practical and useful information that many PFS sufferers can use to better direct their efforts in treating their PFS symptoms

Just to elaborate for the general audience here, type 1 and type 2 PFS are not a strictly binary division, rather its better to see it in terms of a gradient. We should be asking ourselves, do we generally have a more positive response to raising androgens or a more positive response to lowering androgens?


#65

I just took a 2 table-spoons of Soy Flour for the first time, I had an immediate calming effect and I swear to god a slight increase to my libido which I haven’t felt in a minute - I shit you not I started having this odd sensation that I needed to watch porn… THis could all be completely placebo. So let me continue doing it and seeing whats going on.

I’m a little confused here - I thought we we’re all certain that the issue is our Androgen Receptors have become over-expressed when DHT levels dissapear? @Pete1989 You seem to have just posted studies that indicate the AR is downregulated from Fin use? Which is it?

@skorpio88 is this you as well? http://curepfsandaccutanesideeffects.blogspot.com/2018/07/thoughts-on-current-direction-of-soy.html?m=1


#66

Not to sound creepy but… did you successfully choke the chicken? Is the effect still goin?


#67

I actually did, my erection was still very weak. But my interest was noticeably higher.

It is SO SO weird when that feeling of sex drive comes back - like when it comes back it feels like not big deal, like it’s completely natural and never left. But it’s been gone for so long. Such a weird feeling.


#68

Are you gonna continue ? I wonder if the erection quality will return with time as well, jealous you felt what you felt !


#69

Definitely going to continue, apparently it takes some time and you need to cycle. So we’ll see how it goes with time.


#70

Keep me updated man :slight_smile: I’m happy for you


#71

There is plenty of evidence to suggest that AR suppression occurs, so I really don’t know anymore. I’m just sticking to my regimen because it works for me. I’ve shared it in a different thread. The more I read into this condition (and trust me, I’ve read a shit ton of papers at this point), the more I realize how complex and novel it is. There is no one right “regimen”, not every supplement or amino will effect everyone in one uniform way. I think we are all unique, we’re all affected in different ways and to different extents.


#72

Where’s your regimen at? Which thread ?


#73

Totally agree.

Just to be clear however, are you saying that the evidence says Androgen suppression occurs OR Androgen Receptor suppression occurs?

If the Androgen Receptor is overexpressed and the hormonal pathway is shutdown/not working then that would lead to androgen suppression. Or is it stated that Androgen receptor is getting suppressed for certain?


#74

Glad to hear that its working for you, what you experienced is analogous to what others have reported when they tried taking soy. From my experience, soy gives me a particular feeling/benefit that I have never experienced with any other anti-androgen, something about the way it works is quite unique. Furthermore, the thing that I like about soy is that its effect is “sticky”, by that I mean that the benefits from a single dose of soy last for a few days before fading away. What this indicates to me is that soy probably has the ability to work very powerfully on a fundamental level in order to have such a persistent effect. In theory, if you were to use the right amount of soy for the right amount of time then it should help permanently put some PFS symptoms into remission. Anyways, this is my own experience with soy, YMMV of course

And yes, that is my blog :slight_smile:


#75

You can find it here:

https://forum.propeciahelp.com/t/my-regimen-and-its-working/31748/256

I’m saying that there is evidence suggesting suppression of the androgen receptor via signaling pathway. Read the third paper I posted above regarding men diagnosed with prostate cancer who underwent Androgen Deprivation therapy and the side effects they experienced.


#76

I’ve got to admit i didn’t think for one minute that this would be any help at all I’m actually guilty of being very negative of soy.
It’s great news to hear that it is helping people I’m going to give it a go myself could you please tell me exactly what soy it was that you tried please i really want to see if this helps.


#77

I use this brand:

https://www.bobsredmill.com/soy-flour.html


#78

My testosterone and DHT are all normal and perfectly in the middle of the range. I suffer from the neurological effects that are distinctive to pfs and appeared just when I crashed (unexpectedly. I didn’t know about crashes) Although I had half the sexual symptoms, most of them diminished or disappeared with time.
I would say my AR (Androgen Receptors) are currently working not too far from normal parameters.

The AR are not the only thing being affected. 3α-HSD, 3β-HSD enzymes are also affected and important neurosteroids are completely shut down, like allopregnanolone and tetrahydrodeoxycorticosterone, explaining the panic attack, anxiety, depression and insomnia; the deregulation of the GABA and Dopamine receptors (bringing anhedonia) and the myriads of effects it has on the mind and body.

In my estimate, if you use fin to inhibit to some degree the AR, they will adapt and work stronger to establish a balance with the inhibitor. Then if you stop the inhibitor, it will throw them off balance and they will end up working harder than they should. If it’s really too much, your body will find a way to shut them down completely and you get AR suppression (like gene methylation). That’s better that than dying.
If the AR are working more than they should but not too much to be a threat, the body may not shut them down but instead try other ways to balance things out. You get AR over-expression.

Maybe for some, when they first used fin, it inhibited the AR completely, never giving them any chances to adapt. Then the symptoms of AR suppression appeared quickly.

This is just a theory, I’m not a doctor, but it appears the differences between pfs sufferers may be linked to how well we first tolerated the drug. After all, we each have wildly ranging natural levels of testosterone and other hormones, enzymes, neurotransmitters etc… (some have 5 times more testosterone than others) but yet the dosage of the poisonous drug is the same for all of us.

I took fin for 20 years and it took 15 years for the first symptoms to appear. I think it’s fair to say my body had time to adapt to the drug and withdrawing it has caused extra damage and threw me off balance.

If we spin around and lose our balance, it’s hard to predict in which direction we’re going to fall. It’s a bit like playing twister. We each end up in a different, awkward position.


#79

Thanks for the info
I will give it a shot see what happens
I just can’t get my head around it as so many guys that consume soy complain of sexual dysfunctions…

Still well worth a shot


#80

I’m still can’t get my head around this soy thing
I’ve seen so many posts saying avoid soy based proteins …
Just done a little bit of reading up on things

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17585029/