Soy discussion (Varility Paradox topic)


#41

So you think multiple theories on this are correct then?


#42

yeah of course. Libido is simply my desire to have sex, if im actually with a girl I can get hard and have sex, this isnt a problem. I want to emphasize as I did previously, that others have reported that soy increased their libido by taking soy, so whether or not soy increases libido or not seems to depend on the individual

Im not really sure at this point in time, all I know is that for me at least, androgen receptor/androgens are not the full problem, there is something else going on and I suspect the problem has a lot to do with the neurotransmitters/neurosteroids


#43

I agree, by others do you mean on this forum ?


#44

others on this forum, the solvepfs forum and also a few random people on the internet who contacted me via my blog


#45

Soy contains phyto estrogen. Like oat. It’s an androgen antagonist.


#46

I suspect it has to do with the gaba receptors

It does. 5ari blocks the transformation of progesterone into alloptegnanolone.
I’m studying how ro restart this mechanism using various amino acids.
The dopamine receptors are also affected.


#47

I had some tofu and miso soup today. I really felt weak and tired after that. I was wondering if I could get back home from the Japanese restaurant. Soy is not for me.
The AR are out of wack. I’m not sure they are overexpressed for all of us. It looks to me like they are repressed for quite a few !
I am curious about these result but as it is, I am going to try the opposite direction: increase AR density, reboot 5ar production especially for the neurosteroids it produces to regulate GABA (A) and Dopamine receptors.
It’s good to be reminded I can use phyto estrogen in food to down regulate the Androgens if needs be.


#48

Did your erection strength improvemed, if yes, how much? What about penile and scrutom numbness?


#49

I can’t imagine how popping down the local restaurant for a meal is going to make any real difference to anything if im honest it’s not like you see a load guys with boners everytime your out and about.


#50

Please try to understand that not everything is as simple as you might think it is. Your post serves only to shut down discussion. That is not helpful.

You may as well say “I can’t imagine how taking a little pill would affect my ability to achieve an erection” yet here you are. Do you understand the mechanism of the medication that you take? Do you understand how the body digests, extracts nutrients and produces energy from food? I am going to assume that you don’t understand any of those things. The vast majority of people don’t. I don’t.

It is clear that there is a relationship between people consuming food and it having an effect on the body. Finasteride has affected many people in different ways and many people have changed experiences of foods and supplements now. Some people here can have severe adverse reactions to substances that they consumed without issue pre finasteride. Please acknowledge that your experience is part of a wide range of experiences here on the forum. Similarly, some people find that particular substances in food that interact with particular processes in the body has given them some relief from symptoms.

I’m sure you didn’t mean to be, but it’s easy to interpret you post as being dismissive and rude.


#51

Sorry if my comment came across as rude it wasn’t intended as rude just slightly comical maybe.
All I’m saying is eating a bit of soy is highly unlikely to make a world of difference theirs soy in so many products its unreal.


#52

Have a look at this link soy is in just about half of your shopping list its actually difficult to even avoid the stuff if you tried its hidden in everything.

https://www.meghantelpner.com/blog/soy-masquerading-as-a-whole-lot-of-other-stuff/

Theirs simply no real need to be adding soy to the soy people already consume without even knowing about it .


#53

I too, have found that I experience reversal of symptoms when I promote AR density, not suppress it. There is a paper I sited on a different thread regarding AR suppression therapy for men with enlarged prostate, and the side effects they experienced were encompassing to what we experience here - ED, muscle loss, genital atrophy, etc. Of course, other factors might be at play. But it still doesn’t logically make sense to me how suppressing androgen receptivity to free T would help cases of sexual dysfunction?


#54

All I know is that I went vegetarian a couple of years ago for a short time and had a large amount of soy in a short period of time, I had a mini-crash. It was the only one I’ve had since all this started and it was terrifying. I thought I lost all the improvements I made over the years. Luckily I bounced back. Won’t touch the stuff.


#55

That’s if you buy things with a list of ingredients, which I avoid.

I only eat things with one ingredient. Rib eye steak, salt, kale, lard or ghee. It takes me 10 minute to cook a meal.


#56

It is true that soy is estrogenic, however its important to keep in mind that soy does not suppress androgens by raising estrogens. Rather the estrogenicity of soy is merely an additive effect, soy’s primary effect is by downregulating the androgen receptors themselves as opposed to merely lowering androgens (which it also does to some degree as well, but thats not its primary effect). The only reason I raise this point is because the fact that soy directly downregulates the androgens receptors themselves (as opposed to merely lowering androgens) is a huge distinction and very important to consider

excellent point. I think I overstated the importance of soy for “most” suffers of PFS. A long time ago I proposed a theory that there are two types of PFS:

Type 1: androgens/androgen receptors are too low, these type of people respond well to increasing their androgens

Type 2: androgens/androgen receptors are too high, these type of people respond well to decreasing their androgens

Obviously, soy is probably only good for people with type 2 PFS. Im very interested in hearing how your experiments turn out btw :slight_smile:

@sunny11

Yes, it was about a 10-15% improvement, which is mild but keep in mind that the improvement was permanent as well. Also I no longer really have the problem of having a “light” penis, most of the time my flaccid penis seems to be of regular weight and density, I attribute this to taking soy. Also I want to point out that with soy, I am still exploring all of its different applications. Up until now soy has given me modest improvements, but I am confident that it can give more much significant improvements in combination with the right things

I never had a problem with penile and scrotum numbness

I think this is incorrect. Its true that there is a lot of soy in the foods that people are eating, but I doubt that people eat it in a concentrated enough fashion (within a short amount of time) to have the kind of effect that we are looking for. You shouldnt underestimate how eating a single large dosage of soy can impact the body. If what you were saying was true that people already consume a lot of soy and thus eating more soy wouldnt have an effect then that would mean that nobody would experience anything from eating significant doses of tofu/soy flour over a regular period of time which I know is false.

@Pete1989

Suppressing androgen receptivity helps in cases of sexual dysfunction based on the assumption that your androgen receptors are overly expressed/overly dense in the first place. However if your androgen receptors are not overly expressed/overly dense then suppressing androgen receptivity probably wouldnt help. The basic idea is that when androgen receptors are overly expressed they become desensitized to androgens, therefore by lowering the activity of overly expressed androgen receptors it allows them to become resensitized to androgens again which in my experience is true

@ihatefin

How much soy did you have, and in what period of time? As I said earlier, what I see over and over again is that soy only tends to cause major problems when people take too much of it. Assuming that you have overly expressed androgen receptors, then taking slight to moderate doses of soy should be beneficial.


#57

Thanks for responding to everyone’s comments. Really insightful and I find your theory on two versions of pfs interesting. I’ve always had that thought in the back of my mind as well - that there are two common extremities that I have observed from reading member stories.


#58

I agree with both skorpio88 and Pete1989 on the ambivalence of AR expression amongs pfs sufferers.

Skorpio, I will follow your experiment with interest.

Pete, I will add some of your supplementation to what I’m currently doing. My AR seems to be working at near normal levels. It’s the inhibition of certain neurosteroids that affects me the most.


#59

Interesting stuff guys.

If the two types of PFS idea is correct, how would someone go about determining which of the two camps they were in?


#60

Would this explain why some people have more prominent mental side effects and others have more prominent sexual side effects?