Truth is cdnuts used prohormones. So he was taking the hormone route all the way.
Yea the natural way sounds nice and everything, but everyday that I’m not normal is agonizing. I figure a pill got us into this mess, hopefully a pill can get us out.
I’m really interested in trying LATE’s Progesterone dabs with a very low daily dose of an AI (Aromasin). I thought of quartering a 25mg of Aromasin (AI) [the way we use to quarter our Finasteride pills] and take it daily with a hit of Progesterone…Any thoughts from anyone on this approach? There are some amazing scientific minds in this forum, truly impressed with everyone’s research. Peace.
More truth is it also took 5 years. I have taken nothing and feeling tons better in 2 years
Yes but you didn’t have any shrinkage did you Fina?
My penis is fucking twisted. If I take a piss without holding my shrunken penis, I have to stand side ways on to the toilet so that my piss stream goes where it is suppose to go, ie, straight ahead!
Propecia has shrunken and twisted my flaccid penis
Haha I feel ya 
I saw 5 doctors and one urologist in Canada, so far. Only my GP recommended TRT. None ordered complete bloodwork. Nor will they. The urologist, who tested my total and free T, which came back in the bottom 15th percentile, looked at me straight in the face, and said he would do nothing for me, and that’s it. I left. A specialist. When I see GP’s here, trying to get bloodwork or a referral to a specialist, they don’t even listen to my symptoms. They cut me off after the second sentence. Literally. 3 wanted to proscribe me anti-depressants. This is the cold, hard reality of my situation. This is why I am forced to become a human guinea pig.
Honestly, I have no idea about progesterone. FinaTruth thinks progesterone is another key to the puzzle. He could be right?
When I trial herbal or pharmaceutical products, I try one at a time. That way, I know for certain what causes the change. Trialing two or more products, while efficient, if results are achieved, how does a person know which amount of which product is responsible for the effect? One of the problems with all this stuff is dosing. Not just having the right product of the right quality, but finding a dosing regime that is right for ME. This is a sensitive process, so I err more on the side of one at a time. Btw, I sent you a pm. Google eroids.
I thought this would come up. CDNuts went the hormonal route. All the products he incorporated manipulate hormones. Be they herbal, or not. Sustain Alpha, Dermacrine, Diesel Test Hardcore, Horny Goat Weed, Tribulus, Tongkat Ali, Stinging Nettle root, DIM, chrysin; these all impact hormones. That’s why they work!! Natural or not, makes no difference.
Some guys recover naturally from PFS. Some don’t. I’m going on nine years here. Believe me, this can last much longer then a person thinks. Either way, it’s a roll of the dice. If a person chooses to wait it out, hoping for a recovery, that’s their choice. They may recover in time. They may not recover, and waste all that time they could have tried different things, sitting on their hands. It’s all a gamble.
One thing I’d like to add; the biggest mistake I see guys like you and others make is draw sweeping conclusions based on observations confined to this discussion board ONLY. There are at least 20 hugely popular bodybuilding discussion boards out there, with millions of posts. And probably 10 huge discussion boards on Male-aging/TRT/hormonal health, with millions of posts. There is so much accumulated knowledge and wisdom out there when it comes to steroids and hormonal levels, what works, what doesn’t; it’s a vast resource, and we all share the same biology.
What I see here are guys who hear of something good (for example, an anti-estrogen), buy some generic, have no idea how to run it or how to determine optimal dose or what the sides are of going too high or too low. They take one pill, one day, experience no effect, write it off, proclaim on the board it doesn’t work. Then everyone repeats it doesn’t work!
Or, the other extreme; a guy buys an anti-estrogen, takes far too much, for far too long, crush their estrogen, killl libido and boners and feel like shit. They report back to everyone they tried xyz anti-estrogen, it was shit, and everyone concludes it doesn’t work.
What is wrong with this picture!??!?!!??!?
Many things. It’s the blind leading the blind around here, lots of the time. We all need to be mindful about making conclusions without respect of context. Myself included. Every persons experience is valid, as long as context is understood. Most of us have no context because we’re totally new to this stuff.
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First of all respect to you having pfs for 9 years. You are strong man…
Secondly, i hope you dont mind me asking but have you tried enough protocols to recover all these 9 years or you were waiting for a natural recovery?
And finally, i agree with the point of your post, but the anti-estrogen treatments were discussed more than enough in this forum and that is because there were plenty of people with gyno. Also many people have tried trt with aromatase inhibitors. I dont think people have recovered with AI’s or estrogen agonists here. Only short term benefits have been reported.
I truly believe that manipulating estrogen is not the key to recovery. We would have more than 5 recoveries by now considering the amount of people who took that route.
As far as hormone manipulation, this is a different story. CDnuts was using prohormones that were dht metabolites, maybe he was boosting 5ar2 activity or re established the hormone pathways. Who knows?
yes cdsnuts used prohormones and test boosters… but he also had an extremely clean diet and worked out x3/week. you are isolating one factor from his recovery. i suggest you do his entire protocol minus the hormone stuff and see how you feel in a month. he made it clear that this was not the only reason. plus, there were maybe 3 or 4 people i believe that took prohormones and didn’t feel any boost to their condition, just temperary. this is not even an argument guys, look around the forum. the hormone stuff has been beaten to death with a stick.
have any of u guys even tried backloading?
on top that, there are another couple of recoveries from people going all the all natural route. where is the recoveries from test boosters? none… because they are required to stay on it indefinetely to reach some kind of baseline… but not completely normal. this is normal you think? to supplement testosterone in your 20s for your whole life into your 60s or 70s? do u think that is really healthy?
and @whoever said show where a crash took place… the only time people do crash is when they mess with hormones… usually from taking something and then overmasturbating from it causing a spike.
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Thanks. Wish I had a choice in the matter. Guess we all do. Feel free to ask me anything…
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I’ve spent about 5 grand on herbal and pharmaceutical supplements over the past 8 years in an attempt to self-medicate the problem. In the beginning, I figured the decline was related to diet, shift-work (nights), and slight obesity. I rectified each of those with no change in libido/erections/wood. I work days, lost ~6 inches off my waist, and eat a relatively clean diet of unprocessed food, fresh vegetables, fish oil, and regular supplements. I also lift weights, and am quite strong, oddly enough. All that said, those natural changes did nothing to restore libido and erections. My erections and libido are so poor I have to take 30mg of cialus prior to a date with any female, and still only experience a ~70% erection during intercourse.
The first OTC test-booster supplement I tried was Diesel Test Hardcore. It worked. If you’re interested, I would encourage you to read the entire thread, as I elaborated at some length on the success and recovery I experienced with that. Total recovery, in every area. That was the 2009 formulation. The owner of Get Diesel maintains the formulation hasn’t changed, but many anecdotal user reports say the new formulation isn’t as strong. That was my recent experience as well, sadly (no benefit). This is still a key area of my study and investigation, as something or a group of herbs in this product restored every aspect of my sexual and emotional health, and my testicles literally doubled in size. I kid you not. Whatever was in that old product is the Holy Grail for PFS guys. I will speak more about this later in the post.
From there, I tried a vast array of OTC herbal test-boosters; Sustain Alpha with Toco 8, Sopharma Tribulus, T-Bol, Stoked, LJ100, Sumatra Pasak Bumi Tongkat Ali, NOW Tribulus, Erase, all types of herbal extracts from Beyond a Century (noted earlier in the thread) etc. I literally can’t remember all the products I tried. Each of those products, I would run higher then the recommended dose at 5-8 weeks. Then wait at least 4-6 weeks to flush out the old product before trying a new regime. At 3 months trial per product, you can see how the process takes some time…
During this period, I also experimented with vitamin and mineral supplements, and raw herbs, figuring I was deficient in some area. Bought ~3 grand worth of vitamins; royal jelly, botswallia, ALCAR, ginger, ginko biloba, etc. You name it, I have it. None of those products provided more than slight benefit.
Next, I trialed clomid (again, this is all stated at the start of the thread), for three months with marginal benefit. Then, came the Aromasin, which I’m trialing now.
When I took the Sumatra Pasak Bumi Tongkat Ali my free test came back in the upper 75th percentile. But I didn’t feel any different (impotent). When I had my second set of bloodwork on zero supplements of T-boosters, my T came back in the bottom 15th percentile. More clues.
- Legendary has made a >80% recovery on Letrozole. Check his thread in the recovery forums. As for the other people who failed to experience benefit from an AI, I can’t comment. Could you post some of those threads, please? I will try and dig them up myself. The point I keep making here; it’s difficult for men to find their E2 sweet-spot (boners + libido + nocturnal wood). Too high or too low E2 results in crushed libido and impotency in most males. This is common broscience in bodybuilding and TRT circles. Literally thousands of posts across the web, that substantiate that. All that to say; context is critical. Did these guys trial an AI properly? I’ll be at it for at least 2-3 months to get the dosage dialed in right. Did they? Or did these guys pop a few pills, get no benefit, and write it off? And then other people, read it, assume they followed appropriate protocol (incorrectly), and write it off, as well?
I hear what you’re saying - where are the success stories if AI therapy works or provides benefit? Legendary is one. I have experienced benefit, although it’s too early to call it a success. Many other men (non PFS guys), have experienced a resurgence in libido, erections and wood when controlling high E2 with an AI.
- CDnuts manipulated with hormonal products. That’s right. We all have too. And the products he used (herbal stuff), work to increase LH, FSH, T, lower E, and lower SHBG, amongst other things… It all ties in together. The E/T relationship is critical to the HPTA. Again, don’t go by PFS boards so much. Look at the actual biology of the matter. How does the body produce testosterone (estrogen feedback etc). if we’re low T and higher E, it’s obvious controlling E could provide benefit. I’m not saying it’s the holy grail. But none of us should write anything off so quick unless we tried it for ourselves.
Have you had bloodwork? If so, are you high estrogen? Have you trialed an Anti-estrogen for 2-3 months?
Again, Legendary has a near complete recovery using the anti-estrogen, Letrozole. That should say something to you.
We’re all on the same side here. What are your labs? Have you tried an anti-estrogen? Where are all these threads where guys trialed an anti-estrogen and experienced no benefit? I keep hearing about them, but nobody posts them. Could you post a couple, please?
Like I said, I eat extremely clean and work out more then CDnuts for over 2 years. No benefit.
What works for one person, may not work for another person. We need to share anecdotal experiences, but there isn’t just ONE WAY to solve this problem.
Look, there are guys who make a complete natural recovery doing nothing. Their bodies just rebound. Lots of guys who take Fin rebound fine after cessation. Every persons physiology is DIFFERENT.
Mine did not rebound, recover, or get better, even after I did all the natural stuff (weight loss, sleep, diet, exercise).
Next, I should try and fast. But I’ve worked hard to accumulate this muscle and strength, so I am reluctant to do so.
So my question to all you skeptics - what are you doing? What have you tried, Bryce? Are you replicating CDnuts protocol, since you said I should?
Have you even tried an AI? If not, then how can you be so sure this won’t provide benefit?
The problem with pfs is not hormonal. If it was your body would have found its balance. If we take a single healthy man and make him abuse every steroid there is out there for even one year and never do a post cycle therapy to prevent the rise of estrogens that follow, he will definitely experience a hormone crash. But 99% his body will eventually recover.
This is not the case with pfs sufferers unfortunately.
So there is damage somewhere else primarily. The root cause might be anything from altered gene expression, to impaired enzymes which metabolize hormones.
If the studies for post ssri sundrome are accurate then pfs might be both. If we assume that pfs is similar to post ssri syndrome.
Also, altered neurosteroids are definitely the case with pfs, according to the italian studies.
From my experience i crashed every time i tried to mess with neurosteroid receptors , either by using phosphatidyl serine or ambien, a drug to induce sleep.
There’s a lot wrong with this.
- If PFS wasn’t hormonal, guys taking AI’s and TRT wouldn’t experience improvement. Many have. Including myself. Please explain that?
- Steroid users get permanently shutdown all the time. This is common knowledge. Drawing (nonfactual) analogies doesn’t prove anything.
- Interesting theory - how are you using that to help you?
Look, you’re drawing broad conclusions based on flimsy analogies, which compel you to do what, exactly? Nothing? Sit on your butt and throw stones? We have to experiment and trial solutions which have demonstrated theoretical or practical benefit.
For a moment, lets say everything you said is true, and I’m completely wrong. What therapy are YOU TAKING, to improve your condition, based on your understanding of PFS? Please, enlighten us.
Right or wrong, as long as your trialing a possible solution, that benefits us all. If you’re not doing anything but theorizing and sitting on your hands, it does nothing to help anyone.
Last, I answered all of your questions but you answered none of mine:
Have you had bloodwork?
If so, are you high estrogen?
Have you trialed an Anti-estrogen for 2-3 months?
Further, where are all these reports of PFS guys who ran AI’s with zero benefit. Could you please post some of these threads? Thanks.
I dont mean to be any kind of obstacle in someone’s expectations and its a good thing that you respond well in your therapy with aromasin. But i would like to answer your statements just for the sake of argument.
- pfs victims do not respond to trt or any estrogen treatment. Those who do are the exception. This is a fact, just use the search button to find many failed attempts.
- steroid users who get completely shut down are chronic users which abuse steroids for many years. My example was on a healthy man, like us before pfs. Any hormonal manipulation could be overcomed. Nevertheless, this is not the case with pfs.
I agree with you that we need to try everything in order to make conclusions but the methods you propose were the same people were on 10 years ago in this forum.
Anyway i hope you the best man. There is always hope for us just keep fighting! Cheers
Quick Update: Rem Sleep Wood definitely making a comeback. Skipped Aromasin dose past 4 days. REM sleep wood has improved every night the past 4 days. Last night was a 5 on a 10 point scale. Woke up twice with decent boners. Before Aromasin, night wood was pretty much nonexistent.
I skipped the Aromasin dose the past 4 days because I drove E2 down too low (joint soreness/loss of libido etc). Now waiting another week or so, before I start a smaller Aromasin dose again.
We’re all entitled to our opinion. Sorry if I came off as harsh.
I searched the forums last night for TRT/Anti-E failures, and couldn’t find anything definitive. Vincentv said the only thing that got him back to normal (sexual and boners) was Letrozole. If you could post some of those threads, where guys failed on an Anti-E, I would appreciate it. Any information is good.
REM Sleep wood is coming back for me. Haven’t had nearly any REM Sleep wood in ~8 years. Aromasin is producing this. I would suggest more guys trial Aromasin/Letrozole, including you. It’s definitely helping.
@Dr. Tumbleweeds…Fuck yea bro! I can’t believe I get this excited about another man’s erections! Aromasin is out of stock from an online pharmacy I’m trying out, but they asked me to email them this coming week. After reading about Tumbleweeds progress with Aromasin, I’ve decided to give it a crack. As he suggest…its all about finding the sweet spot, going to try 6.25mg every other day to start and I might even throw a little dab of Progesterone as I doff my hat to LATE’s protocol. Peace hombres.
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Perfect gent, maybe try a much lower dose, 1mg or less, I have seen an article that said .5mg can supress 50% of a mans estrogen. Start smaller probably, just my opinion.
In regards to supplements it sounds like you didnt cycle them? Ie a different herb each day and never the same in a one week period? If you dont do this you will build up a tolerance and the test booster wont work. Plus diesel test is just a mix of different test boosting herbs, it might work better if you had cycled these individually imo.
lol @ boners
That dose for at least 3 weeks and journal progress. If no joy, then try maybe 6.25 ED, for three weeks etc. Besides the 2nd week when i blasted through my sweet spot with 4 faps in one day and strong night wood, it’s been lackluster. However, REM sleepwood has come back a bit since i skipped my Aromasin dose. If it’s possible to keep it in the 4 faps a day zone, i’ll be a happy man lol Let us know how it goes and be sure to start a thread here so we can follow your progress!
Perhaps. I’ve heard that theory. And I did cycle each product. Usually 5 days on, 2 days off. The first time I took Diesel Test Hardcore in 2009, the results were off the charts. Complete resolution of all symptoms. Confidence, alpha male feeling, well being, boners, night wood, refractory; all off the charts. That was cycled 5 days on, 2 days off at 5 weeks. That proves to me, if a product is going to work, it can work under those conditions. No T booster ever came close to that.