Reversing Gene Expression back to Normal

General Discussion
#20

Hi @LazarusRy

I really feel for you. I know how it is to have bad days, wishing it was time to sleep, only to have a horrible night without sleep and then another miserable day. I can’t imagine being years like that. You’re displaying lots of resilience. It’s all to your honor ! I send you by best thoughts.

According to what I read, cyanobacteria, one of the first life form on this planet, developed sirtuin proteins to repair their epigenome when facing survival conditions. those sirtuin proteins were not generated in situation of abundance, reproduction was preferred in those cases.
Most current life forms are descendants of those cyanobacteria and retained this ability to generate sirtuin proteins in situations of survival. I understand the you would rightly consider yourself in a situation of survival, but for human cells, the signals are more primitive: extreme cold, extreme heat, lack of food, lack of carbs, getting out of breath etc…I made a whole list under Tricks to repair the Epigenome

With modern life, with constant influx of carbs, comfortable temperature, enough food, no predators to run out of breath from, our body consider itself in abundance and is reproducing cells and for lots of people it accumulates fat as well.

I stumbled by luck and later understood that a carnivore / ketogenic diet, IMHO was making conditions favorable for the tricks listed above to trigger the production of sirtuin proteins, some of which are responsible of repairing the epigenome. That is, repairing damaged gene expression.

I’m currently experimenting with some phyto-androgen from herbs and I notice that if I overshoot, I get too much androgen and I have anxiety, brain fog etc… I think that’s what’s happening when you use T gel and other chemicals. You are in a fragile state. If it was me, I would avoid chemicals and androgen for the moment.

As you know, I’m not an expert nor a medical practitioner. Under the advise of Axolotl, I started studying the epigenome and came to the conclusion that the body needs to be made ready, in the most natural way possible, to sustain some acute but temporary stress that would trigger the production of sirtuin proteins (maybe I’m wrong. I’m showing improvements but I cannot know for sure it’s due to what I’m doing)

I’m not saying it will work for you, nor am I suggesting you try this. But I’ll tell you what i did as additional ideas of what people have tried.
If you read the articles in the thread above, you’ll see that being in a state of ketosis (aka on a ketogenic diet) produces a lot of BetaHydroButyrate (BHB) which are used as fuel and uses 4 times less Nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD+) which are used by the cells to burn either glucose or BHB as a source of energy (we can also burn aceto acetate at a zero NAD+ cost). NAD+ are made from the amino acid L-Tryptophan and nicotinamide (Vitamin B3).
Burning ketone bodies uses 5 times less NAD+ than burning carbs, which leaves an excess of NAD+ which, as I understand it, act in synergy with BHB and sirtuin proteins to repair the epigenome if the proper triggers are present to signal the body it’s time to repair, not reproduce.

So I went on a strict carnivore diet at first, eating only fat cuts of beef with butter and salt. (also water of course, but nothing else). The first week is hard so I had to cheat with a few grams of carbs here and there just to make sure I wouldn’t give up. On the second week, my digestion started working again, and I could align thoughts and sentences properly, all of which was pretty disabled before the diet. I later made efforts to trigger repairs with the aforementioned tricks.

That’s how I started to regain strength, being able to climb stairs or drive my car. I did other things, but that’s the main component. I now eat some plant, have most of my fat intake from palm oil and eat only one time a day. If you show interest in the idea, I can detail more. But please read all the post I linked above. It has lots of info and references.

I think there is reasons for hope, but we have to go deep, back to the primitive repair mechanisms from when we were cyanobacteria.

I wish you the best and will send you positive thoughts for recovery in the following days.

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#21

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly and for the detailed response @Ozeph I’ll read through/study what you’ve provided and will come back to you.

Regards
LAZ

#22

I’ll PM you going forward if that’s OK @Ozeph

#23

I sent u a PM @Ozeph

#24

Have you tried NAD+ supplements? Read a thread where someone supposedly recovered on them within days

#25

that guy got worse from NAD+ supplements just recently

#26

Yes, I’m taking NMN everyday and saw improvements in dry lips and burning eyes which are now gone or very little.
@lakehouse Yes, I read that post. It’s not for everyone. I read of a recovery with Tribulus Terretris and another one of a guy who got much worst on it.

#28

I have an update in my situation.

I used to take pine pollen (mildest) tribulus Terrestris (medium) and Horny Goat Weed (strongest). For 1 1/2 year, it didn’t seem to have too much effects but did increase my sex drive. then, I started regaining my body odors which I had lost at the crash. The odors started with Horny Goat Weed only. Then became stronger and started appearing with Tribulus as well.They grew stronger until I had mild odors with Pine pollen as well. And it went like that for a year.

At some point, I found out that those herbs were making me sleep bad. I stopped them and the body odors stopped as well.

Lately, I started again to take some sex herbs, with the idea to increase androgen to force the AR to become less sensitive. I took Tribulus Terrestris, Horny Goat Weed and Tonga Ali (longjack). The first one have been of medium strength, while the latter two were significantly stronger in their androgen effects.
Tribulus immediately brought the body odors back, to a quite high level. However, Horny Goat gave me zero body odors but made me sleep bad. I stopped and the next 2 days, I had body odors which then disappeared. Some of you may know that too much androgen have the same effects as too little so i figured that when I took horny goat, it was too much (no body odors) and when I stopped some was still left in my body so I had body odors. I stayed without sex herbs for 4 days and then I took 1 pill of Tonga Ali. It must be stronger than Horny Goat because it gave me anxiety and also didn’t have body odors. I stopped at once and again, had body odors the next day. I though it would stop, as it did for Horny Goat, but it’s now been 8 days without sex herbs and I still have body odors.

It’s the first time in 3 years and 3 months that I have body odors without any androgen herbs. Either I can produce them on my own, or the herb is still in my system after 8 days, which would surprise me, it’s a water soluble extract and anything water soluble has a shorter stay on our body.
Another effect, I have started having those annoying multiple hour long morning erection accompanied with high glutamate which prevents me from sleeping. after 2-3 hours, the erection stops and I can sleep again, but it means I have to stay in bed 9-10 hours to have 6-8 hours of sleep. It’s unbalancing my daily life.

Still, I believe the long morning erections and the body odors means I may have a persistent increase in androgen and my still hypersensitive AR are reacting with the usual poly-glutamic toxicity which result in elevated glutamate.

Considering I never had body odors without sex herbs, I consider this a progress. Now I have to push harder on the epigenetic repairing trick so that my body realizes that my AR are over-expressed and take action to reduce AR expression. What I read brought me to believe this can be done by producing sirtuin proteins that would then adjust the epigenome (aka gene expression)

I also started to do crouches with increasing weights on my shoulder, which not only gets me out of breath (an epigenetic repair trick) but makes more muscles in the legs, the largest muscles in our body. Creating more muscle create more AR receptors.

So I had those two events happening simultaneously, while experimenting carefully with sex herbs. My own analysis is that if androgen are raised above my comfort zone considering my current level of AR over-expression, it will increase pfs symptoms slightly but with proper diet and tricks, also trigger decreasing expression of AR.

I’m doing this very carefully and the only pfs symptom I got from it is increased insomnia and mild brain fog during the day. I will go on without sex herbs until things get back to normal and then try sex herbs again. I believe this way, little by little, I may be able to reduce AR expression. As you can see, I’m not taking rash actions and I’m very prudent in my approach. However, I don’t consider my slightly increased pfs symptoms as a negative. If I can manage to keep having body odors without herbs, that will be a first and also a proof that after 3 years and 3 months, I’m still making progress.

I just wanted to share the experiment. I think it’s interesting to observe what seems to be increased natural androgen without external source (2-3 hour long erections and body odors) linked to increased pfs symptoms (increased insomnia and brain fog).

I’ll keep you posted. I’ll be very careful and go on experimenting on this path. What if, among all the things that make us feel worst, some things that make us feel worst makes us better on the long run ? Most would have missed it, I know I would, because I ruled out everything that made me worst from the beginning.

Anyway. That won’t be my last post on this topic of reversing gene expression to normal.

P.S.: Take this with a grain of salt and don’t try it. Let me do the experiment. There’s no need having more than one person taking risks.

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#29

Hahaha all in this forum is bad. NAD, vitamin including water

#30

make sure to document your experiences here to add on to 10+ years of people trying and failing on various protocols

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#31

I understand your skepticism. @lacpaz skepticism too (or was it sarcasm ? In that case I agree with you. This forum is rather negative). I won’t hold it against you, this disease makes people like that.

I will document my experiment. It can only be positive. If it’s a protocol that doesn’t work, then it can be ruled out and that’s good. And if something works, it can be added to the things that did work. Plenty of people got rid of this disease. many of them we don’t hear about because people have to be strong to share positive results to people who might just critisize. Many of the success stories starts with “I’ll only post here once and then I’ll be gone,” mentioning somewhere in the text that they can’t read all the negativity. I have a friend getting better and I had to convince him to post. He wants to stay as far away from this forum as possible so I don’t know if he will. Many people with pfs also want to stay positive and stay away from this forum.
As a result, you guys have more representation among the pessimists than the optimists and it creates an echo chamber.

But I won’t give up and I will not take your comments personal. We are all human beings and we all should get information on what made others better, even if there’s no assurance it will work for us.

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#32

So the body odors are staying, without androgen herbs, and my sleep is improving. If I can manage the same relatively good sleep as 3 weeks ago and keep the body odors, I will have crossed a major step. Body odors are kinda all or nothing. First time since I crash 3y+ ago that I can get them naturally ! Hurrah ! I’m really happy !

Insomnia is my last symptom. I said that many times. Looks like I forgot body odors without androgen herbs ! Probably because I never stopped the androgen herbs for 2 years and so I had body odors. It took me to stop to notice they were conditional to the herbs… But now they’re not ! Or anyway that’s what I hope. I didn’t take any herbs for a week and still have strong odors.

I will keep posting as it goes.

I will you all the best and I wish you guys can keep hope !

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#33

Hello @Ozeph.

I am following your story on here because you’re one that is not afraid to experiment.

I am wondering if you ever tried Forskolin? Just asking because I see you still suffer from sleep issues and I believe it was Forskolin that fixed this issue for me. I’m also 99% sure it fixed my dry eyes issue but it seems you already got rid of yours.

What’s interesting is also that even though I stopped using it, I still keep both my sleep and my eye improvements.

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#34

I never tried but that’s interesting. It promotes cAMP which is a second messenger between hypothalamus/pituitary axis. I know This region is under a lot of stress with pfs and that’s where the GABA receptors are (for good sleep and not having anxiety)

Do you have anxiety ?

I’ll put that on my list, but will not do two experiments at the same time.

Thank you !

1 Like
#35

Hey guys I just made this account to post about something that happened to me.
I took 1 pill of saw palmetto in early 2019 as well as a cocktail of 5ar inhibiting foods for months and since then I felt it changed me, I no longer would had as bad hair loss but had anxiety and could not tolerate any kind of 5ar inhibitor (used to drink black tea then couldn’t bare it).

Importantly I have been using all kinds of muscle building supplements and recently tried Turkesterone which AFAIK binds mainly to estrogen receptors. Anyway I took 1 tab and immidietly felt very strong and itchy and oily on the scalp which is how I used to feel and had a bad headache (supossedly can lower GAD enzyme activity and GABA), then I thought ok wont touch that again, but for two days since I have still had a “baldy” feeling on my scalp and feel strong stoic and high dht, like how I used to in 2018. So its possible Turkesterone kick started my 5ar in my body or brain again, I’ve been brainstorming ideas based on what I know about 5ar androgens and estrogens.

Took 1 tukesterone pill, 2 days later still feeling high dht, and also feeling way calmer which could indicate increased progesterone metabolites, if my brain 5ar has been activated or upregulated.

Will keep you guys up to date. Had to make this account because If I found something that could work for you guys I have to share, even though my problems were at most a 5/10 I know some of you are way worse.

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#37

Some success !

I stopped sex herbs for 9 days. Body odors was still present and strong. Sleep got better, burning eyes and dry lips (mild symptoms) got better, and sex drive increased. All of this without sex herbs.

First time since I crashed I can maintain body odors without sex herbs, also first time I see increased libido without them. Sleep came back to a good level so my body seems to have assimilated the changes.

Today and the following days, i will take Tribulus Terrestris in the morning. This should raise my androgen, maybe over the top, If that happens, my sleep will get a little worst but with the diet and tricks I’m doing, I hope to send to my body the signal that AR are over expressed, to tuned them down. I attribute my latest improvement on this tactic but in reality I can’t know for sure.

I’ll post the results as soon as I get more.

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#38

So I did take a single 500mg Tribulus Terrestris sex herb on Saturday. Sunday early morning, I woke up with a hard on that lasted 3 hours. I couldn’t sleep as long as I had it. This is consistent with how I was many months ago. I was complaining that my morning wood lasted too long and was accompanied by too much glutamate (IMHO) which made me agitated and unable to sleep. Once the hard-on was gone, I could sleep again.

Sunday morning I decided to not take the sex herb (having to wake up early on Monday). I had very strong body odors all day. Today Monday, I slept better but still not very good. If I had a morning wood, I didn’t notice. I have body odors, eyes are not burning, lips are not dry. Still have body odors. Also I went for a hair cut and I have a 10cm round spot behind the top of my head that is getting balder. I mean having less hair, I can see through. I didn’t have that a year ago. It can only mean one thing: 5ar is rising to a level where my hair starts falling again.

I will continue the diet, take sex herb after my sleep goes back to normal and do all the tricks. Rinse and repeat. Let’s see what happens.

I also got some NAC (N-Acetyl Cystein). Beside being a strong anti-inflammatory and creating Glutathione, a strong anti-oxydant, NAC itself reduces glutamate production and promote GABA production. It might help me sleep ! If it works, I could tapper the sleep meds !

But aside from that, the acetyl ion can be used to acetylate the histone and contribute to repair epigenetic damage (That is, reverse gene expression back to normal).
Acetyl alone can’t do that. It needs the acetylase enzyme which is regulated by some sirtuin proteins produced by the diet, fasting and other tricks I posted above. Even with that, we still need the de-methylase enzyme to remove those methyl groups silencing some genes, also regulated by the sirtuin proteins.

So to get a hold of my approach, first I did a carnivore/ketogenic diet and removed the most immediate problems. The fix is diet dependant and went away if I ate carbs. That diet produce ketone bodies, 80% of which are BHB (Beta Hydroxy-Butyrate). The diet also burns much less NAD+ and both NAD+ and BHB act in synergy with sirtuin proteins to repair the epigenome. I did fasts and tricks to produce sirtuin proteins so that my epigenome could be repaired. All along I was cycling sex herbs. My theory is I also need to signal my body that my AR were over-expressed considering the amount of androgen in my body.

For 2 years, I did only that and saw sexual symptoms go back to normal. I then started to take NMN (Nicotinamide MonoNucleotide) which is a precursor to NAD+. Burning eyes and dry lips got better, sleep slightly better. I stopped sex herbs for a week or two and slept better, but I’m still not cured. So I’m now taking sex herbs once in a while, to send a signal to my body that my AR are still over-expressed. Meanwhile my 5ar is rising so I’m most likely getting more DHT, which will also very slowly rise my androgens and signal to my body my AR are over expressed.
I suspect if I wasn’t producing lots of NAD+, BHB and sirtuin proteins, my epigenome might not be fixing itself. If my androgens were rising without AR expression reduction, instead of seeing improvements, I believe I would be getting worst as the imbalance between androgens and AR expression would become greater.

So I will continue to be carnivore / ketogenic (although I do eat more plants than before) I’ll continue taking NMN and sex herbs to signal AR over-expression to my body, while doing the tricks to produce sirtuin proteins.

Meanwhile, I will cautiously try NAC to see if it does lower my glutamate and make me sleep better.

So if you read between the lines, I have a theory as to why some people may be getting worst after 3-6 years after crashing: their 5ar is coming back, androgens are rising, but AR still over-expressed so the gap between androgens levels and AR expression is getting larger, meaning a greater poly-glutamic complex toxicity (the cause of my elevated glutamate and insomnia).

This is just a theory. I am not a scientist so all I can do is make theories. Theories are not automatically false, they’re just unproven. Even if I did cure myself this way, it would still just be a theory until some wise ass scientist measure the width of my androgen receptors and observe they have reduced to a normal size.
Beware of taking sex herbs without doing anything else. If the theory above is right, you’d be making the gap between androgens and AR greater, increasing your symptoms. Some people have gotten worst with sex herbs.

So that’s my grain of salt for today. I wish you all the best and I’ll keep posting on this thread because it’s spot on what I’m trying to achieve.

I wish you all the best.

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#39

NAC does work well to make the mornings, after waking up, much less harsh. However, if I take it before sleep, it’s very hard to fall asleep. First time, I took it in the afternoon and slept good. Second time, before bed and had a hard time falling asleep, today I took it in the afternoon and I didn’t sleep yet.

So far, it does calm me down in the daytime as well, although it’s not a massive effect.(which is good. I don’t want to be hammered). Mornings are easier. I still wake up after 4-5 hours, but I fall asleep again and dream. I’ll continue to take it until I post otherwise.

#40

NAC is working (N-Acetyl Cysteine also called N-Acetyl L-Cyteine), but one night I sleep so well I oversleep, the next I sleep bad because I slept too much the previous night. I’ll have to reduce and adjust my sleeping pills to balance the whole thing. I still don’t know if NAC will throw me off balance in a week or two. That’s the difference with supplement and drugs compared to just food diet. Food you’re not allergic to won’t make you crash, supplements might do it immediately or after a while.

So last night, I must have woken up after 6 hours of sleep and I woke up maybe an extra 4 times, sleeping very well in between (very few dreams. Deep sleep) until my alarm rang 9 hours after bedtime. I shut it down and slept a total of 10 1/2 hours. Too much. I’m a bit off this morning, I guess I’ll exercise early and I may sleep bad tonight. Let’s see.

I find NAC is best taken before dinner. It addresses high glutamate which is responsible for: panic attack, anxiety, muscle twitches, insomnia, speaking and thinking too much and feeling lit up all day. It overall smooth me out. I speak less, I’m less hyper, but I still have energy, motivation and cognitive abilities as normal. In short, I feel closer to my former self.

I’m taking it easy. A single 550mg pill a day. I could go 6 times higher without toxicity, but with pfs it’s a risk I won’t take. If in a month or two I’ll see if I’m still having benefits and if it didn’t make me feel worst along the way, I may take one pill in the morning and one pill at dinner. I’ll start by doing it just once and wait a few days. Then make it more often and see if I can do it everyday.

Cysteine is just an amino acid. Its effect are certainly dose dependent. The acetyl group in NAC can be used to repair the epigenome (aka reverse gene expression to normal) if the right sirtuin proteins are produced. So there is something in NAC that can be permanent.
Also, cysteine produces glutathione, a powerful anti-inflammatory and antioxidant. Having more glutathione may free some NAD+ and that NAD+ can assist one epigenetic repairs. (NADH is an antioxidant, it’s the counterpart of NAD+. They transform back and forth as they produce energy in the mitochondria) It’s possible that high oxydative stress caused by glutamic toxicity exhausts glutathione and then NADH, leaving less NAD+ to produce energy. I’ve suffered with very low energy. The ketogenic diet uses 4-5 times less NAD+ to produce more calories in return, leaving more NAD+ available for other purposes. Do you see how this diet is not just a useless step but part of a more comprehensive process ?

Also note that I have very little symptoms left. Mainly just high glutamate. If your body is still quite unbalanced and you have lots of symptoms, I really don’t know if NAC won’t crash you. It may or may not. If it was me, I would do a keto / carnivore diet first to stabilize my body before trying supplements that are dose dependent anyway. Without the diet and the tricks, the acetyl group in NAC has much less chances of repairing the epigenome persistently. I would have said permanently, but nothing is permanent with the epigenome. It changes and adapt our DNA to our life circumstances daily, from conception to death. In itself that statement should give hope. That’s why some people recover spontaneously. But if the epigenome is too out of tune, some specific steps aiming at the epigenome has to be taken IMHO.

Ps: I will still take a sex herb once in a while, but I’ll wait to have figured out how to incorporate NAC in my routine before adding another change.

I wish you all the best.

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#41

Well, NAC is working good. I found that 200mg, taken at dinner, will make me sleep very well. I’m more relaxed in general during the day and even other symptoms, like burning eyes and dry lips are going away. They were not very strong to begin with, almost unnoticeable except in some circumstances, but I went to the sea and swam underwater with my eyes open. I was very surprised to feel no irritation at all. It was just as comfortable as having my eyes open outside water. Even a swimming pool doesn’t feel so comfortable.
That’s a first for me.

I actually don’t know if it’s related, but NAC turns into Glutathione, a very powerful anti-inflammatory and antioxidant. As a foot note, over-expressed AR have been said to create glutamic complex toxicity. Glutamate is in that complex and when too high, it creates oxidative stress and neuro-degenerecence.
It depletes glutathione which is used to combat oxidative stress. Depleted glutathione, in turn, put more stress on its precursor (NAC) as it tries to replenish itself. Lower NAC means more glutamate and less conversion of glutamate into GABA. It’s a vicious circle (If I got it right… Lol)

I hope to break this vicious using NAC, and as a bonus NAC contains an acetyl group that can help repair the epigenome under the right circumstances (BHB, NAD+, Sirtuin proteins etc…)

Anyway. It’s me again with my theories. Nonetheless, I sleep good, my eyes and lips are not burning and pfs is not an issue anymore. Like those people living with HIV: they’re not cured, but have a normal life.

I’ll keep posting. Maybe NAC will prove unsustainable on the long run, I don’t know. I’d rather think I found another key to the puzzle ! That’s a more interesting idea !

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