This forum is like a village mob.
As someone currently getting treated by Dr. Georgiadis, and out of a matter of conscience for all the poor souls who will be misled because of the herd mob mentality on this forum and this thread, I feel I have to write something, even as treatment is far from complete for me.
We know (from the countless studies out there) that finasteride screws up the prostate, deprives the genitals of necessary hormones, causes a starvation of necessary nutrients and blood flow to the penile architecture, induced fibrosis, and generally wreaks havoc on the entire urogenital system.
We know that finasteride is a steroid drug, that steroids disrupt the stomach gut flora lining/immune system, that many people have gut issues, and that many PFS guys experienced infections and and new symptoms after finasteride use.
We know that chronic prostatitis affects many men and that it is poorly understood and treated.
We know that many men on this forum have prostatitis symptoms AND have had independent diagnoses of CP, including some of the guys who had these diagnosis prior to having visited Dr. Geo. We also know that many men have found some measure of relief in using strong antibiotics.
We know that the general medical community does not know how to deal with non-acute prostatitis, so it labels it with a wastebasket term like “Chronic Non-Bacterial” Prostatitis. But in centers in San Fransisco, New York and Arizona (in the U.S.) as well as the Philippines and China, Russia, Israel, Greece and probably other unknown pockets of the world, it is believed that ALL prostatitis is bacterial and the prostate is the center of male function and can result in MANY of the symptoms we have. And simple antibiotics, cannot do the trick…(even if they provide temporary relief for some).
So now in Dr. Georgiadis we have a guy who has successfully treated many cases of prostatitis by insisting that antibiotics alone cannot reach the poorly vascularized region of the prostate and so employs a unique technique of “finger unblocking curative pressure.” (Go ahead, look up an anatomical diagram of the prostate region, and now contemplate what he’s doing with his finger to reach that region and what it must feel like and consider why people getting treatment on a daily basis taking strong antibiotics don’t feel up to the task of providing daily reports amidst this environment of cynicism.)
Guys, treating CP is not easy. It doesn’t happen overnight. But I can attest to having met hordes of people who have benefited from Dr. Georgiadis’ therapy, including guys with E.D. The sad fact, though, is that the PFS cases seem WORSE in general. The doctor concedes that it cannot be coincidental that some guys contract severe CP symptoms after one dose of finasteride, or a couple of weeks or months. There is a GLARING correlation. As there is a correlation between finasteride and high grade cancer. As there is between CP and cancer. THIS IS NOT A JOKE, GUYS!
Furthermore, Dr. Georgiadis has diagnosed varying degrees of penile fibrosis in the PFS cases. Again, the studies that demonstrate that finasteride causes penile fibrosis in rats in just one month are out there. Mew has posted these before, and they’re out there on the Internet. In simple terms, the lack of hormonal health down there, the androgen deprivation, rearranges fibers in your penis, blood flow and trapping capability suffers, nutrients do not go where they’re supposed to. Your dick rots. VENO-OCCLUSIVE DYSFUNCTION is the medical term. The PFS guys that have had the doppler ultrasound diagnostics (in addition to the TRUS exam) have been found to have varying degrees of veno-occlusive dysfunction. And have various tailored regimens corresponding to their degree of fibrosis and atrophy and dysfunction.
I asked the doctor “So, if you wanted to give a man good erections, you wouldn’t give him finasteride for nine years, right?” “No, no, of course not.” Was his response. “Nine years is a long time.” I don’t recall any warnings like that on the label, do any of you guys? Never mind those of you who took it for a brief time and rapidly fell ill. Shit, I knew within 1-2 years of taking finasteride that something was off, but I couldn’t fully place it. Looking back, I can sense the gradual, gradual, gradual decline, but I was operating at such a high starting level, that it was hard to realize until it was too late.
So now you’ve had a taste of some of the sad news, you’ve heard some mixed reports back from initial treatments, and you’ve heard of the side effects of the powerful quinolone antibiotic drugs.
So where’s the positive news, what’s the treatment and prognosis?
Well, here are the positives:
-I’ve met a TON of people helped by Dr. Georgiadis, people with all sorts of range of symptoms, including complete lack of sensitivity, lack of libido and E.D. WITHOUT PENILE SENSITIVITY, WITHOUT A HEALTHY APPARATUS, THERE CAN BE NO POSITIVE FEEDBACK LOOP TO EXPERIENCE LIBIDO. THE DOCTOR LIKENS US TO A BUNCH OF CASTRATED MEN WHO VISUALLY SEE ATTRACTIVE FEMALES BUT HAVE NO “URGE” TO FUCK. IN OTHER WORDS, HE GETS IT. Try pumping up your dick with a penile vacuum pump which sends blood to regions your penis hasn’t seen in ages and seeing how you feel afterwards (not saying I cured anything—but in that moment, things feel differently). TRY TO CHANGE YOUR PERSPECTIVE, THE OLD VIEWS HAVE NOT WORKED NOW, HAVE THEY? LIBIDO, IS AT LEAST IN GREAT PART, INFORMED BY FEEDBACK FROM THE PENIS ORGAN.
-The PFS cases of E.D. appear to be worse. It would appear to be due to fibrosis and amount of time without treating the CP/inflammation, the amount of time on finasteride, the amount of time suffering E.D., and the amount of time without erections, including erections stimulated via drugs like Viagra, Cialis, Levitra. BUT there is some hope. Google penile rehabilitation, search this forum, and look up the methods of treating E.D. post radical prostatectomy (when nerve bundles on the prostate are screwed up as collateral damage—but not necessarily with Solon’s proposed robotic surgery–according to his research–but I don’t know too much about that).
-In short, the doctor has issued some combination oral meds and/or physio-therapy:
-Vitamin E / 100mg
-L-Cartinine
-Pharmaceutical-Grade Yohimbine
-Cialis and/or BiMix self-injection (schedule catered to each case)
-Penis Vacuum pump therapy (daily)
BUT BEFORE YOU RUN OUT AND TRY ALL THIS STUFF, UNDERSTAND THAT YOU HAVE TO TREAT CP (IF YOU HAVE IT) AND INFLAMMATION FIRST. UNDERSTAND THAT YOU NEED TO BE TRAINED PROPERLY TO USE A PENIS PUMP. IT’S EASY IN CONCEPT, BUT IT HURTS AND YOU NEED TO EXERCISE CAUTION! AND IF YOU DON’T DO IT RIGHT, IT WON’T WORK! (AND THIS THERAPY IS PRACTICED BY ALL THE LEADING UROLOGISTS OUT THERE, BTW, PARTICULARLY AFTER PROSTATE SURGERY).
Some other positives/info:
-Dr. Georgiadis found a varicocele in one PFS guy that the patient was previously diagnosed with (and treated for in the ER, no less). This patient had not disclosed the varicocele to Dr. Georgiadis.
Dr. Georgiadis found varicoceles in other patients (but not all), which other urologists did not. Point is that he’s a competent and thorough urologist. His TRUS and doppler examinations lasted an hour–far longer than other urologists with big names and diplomas.
-Some of the guys have had a return of morning erections. Symptoms and improvements ebb and flow. One day up, one day down. Just like the downward spiral of PFS for many, things gradually improve. This has been relayed by veterans of the process who are back at the office only for maintenance/checkups, and those gradually improving.
Symptoms range from NOTHING at all, to slight urinary problems, to acute infection- like symptoms, to ball/prostate soreness or pains, to E.D. issues (like getting it up, but then losing the erection due to lack of sensitivity/libido), fatigue, etc.
I’m gonna try to summarize and drill this in all again…
Guys, wake the fuck up.
If you take finasteride, you fuck up your prostate, and you induce fibrosis in your penis. We’ve (as a community of patients) had independent diagnosis of both chronic prostatitis and fibrosis.
But we have largely not had effective practical treatments.
Dr. Georgiadis is treating both the prostate and the penis.
The verdict is still out on just how bad or reversible PFS cases are. And if, admittedly, there is something even more sinister at work with finasteride’s damage than the already upsetting fact that we likely have suffered some degree of fibrosis.
But I repeat, you’d be a fool not to investigate chronic prostatitis and penile tissue health (fibrosis). It’d be very illogical to prematurely cast this theory aside because it’s not convenient, doesn’t fit in with our preconceived notion of what PFS is, or because patients (who have not completed the full program) have not undergone a massive overnight turnaround. I mean, just the quinolone antibiotics themselves lower testosterone! We’re not trying band-aid treatments, we’re attempting to treat suspected root causes here.
Some of you are expecting some magnificent overnight recovery. Or else, “Aha! It’s a hoax!” I’m completely confused as to why you cannot see the logic behind:
finasteride/androgen deprivation/hormone/immune dysregulation --> inflammation --> Prostatitis > male sexual problems/atrophy/fibrosis–>further hormonal imbalance–>cancer, etc…
The constant bickering is what is keeping people from reporting back. Why? BECAUSE THIS TREATMENT HURTS LIKE A MOTHERFUCKER! IT’S DAILY AGONY. IT’S TIRING, EXHAUSTING on a physical and mental level. I have to time antibiotics around meals, sit in a waiting room, nap, stick my dick with needles, pump my dick up. WHY WOULD I COME HERE ON A DAILY BASIS TO COMBAT A BUNCH OF UNCURED ANONYMOUS KNOW-IT-ALLS WITH NO CREDENTIALS?
But, I also see the confusion and misinformation, and feel that new sufferers will get led astray, just like I did.
So I want to set the record straight:
IT’S TOO EARLY TO FIGURE OUT JUST HOW LONG THIS WILL TAKE TO FIX (AND IF IT’S FIXABLE FOR ALL). THAT IS NOT AN INDICTMENT OF DR. GEORGIADIS OR THE REVELATION THAT A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE OF US HAVE CHRONIC PROSTATITIS. IT IS AN INDICTMENT OF THE VICIOUS NATURE OF FINASTERIDE. AGAIN, I CAN’T STRESS THIS ENOUGH: READ THE STUDIES ON FINASTERIDE AND 5AR INHIBITORS AND THEIR DAMAGE TO SEXUAL ORGANS. IT MAY VERY WELL BE THAT THE DAMAGE THAT EVERYTHING FROM FINASTERIDE TO ACCUTANE HAS CAUSED IS INDEED HORMONAL IMBALANCE/INITIALLY, BUT PERSISTENT COLLATERAL PHYSICAL DAMAGE, INFLAMMATION, AND SUCH ONCE THE DRUG IS OUT OF THE SYSTEM, BUT STILL EXACTING SIDE EFFECTS. THEREFORE, W/O REPAIR OF PHYSICAL STRUCTURES, THERE CAN NOT BE A RETURN TO HOMEOSTASIS. THE BODY IS OVER-TAXED.
On that note, I think it’s a BIG mistake to mess with hormones, cortisol, dexamethasone, any immuno-suppressing drugs. I think it’s a mistake to self-medicate. I think it’s a mistake to do anything that can FURTHER disrupt the delicate balance of a body fighting inflammation, infection and so on. Research anti-inflammatory diets, consider dropping alcohol if you already haven’t, consider resting as much as possible, consider cutting sugar and spices, consider not over-exerting yourself, consider walking more (getting more circulation down there)…but enough with the self-experiments!!
Stop wasting time bickering with each other and losing sight of the bigger issue: research prostatitis and compare treatment methods, success stories, patient insights, etc. Understand that any time you supplement something, even Vitamin D (which is really a hormone), you’re reducing your body’s own production of that thing. CHALLENGE ALL CONVENTIONAL WISDOM AND MEDICAL PARADIGMS. IT’S YOUR HEALTH, DON’T BE FOOLED BY DOCTORS WITH FANCY GADGETS, ELABORATE THEORIES, AND STERLING REPUTATIONS BUT NO RESULTS.
Now, having said all this…I STILL don’t know what the prognosis is, what the timeline is. Doc says that it’ll be a few months of intense home physio-therapy. Initial CP treatments are around 30 or so, but follow-ups (however inconvenient) are required to truly eradicate infection and inflammation. I don’t know if I’ll get better. But that doesn’t discredit the logic in treating affected organs (prostate and penis). It only shows how bad finasteride is for your health, for your prostate and penis health. And as I previously said, maybe finasteride has indeed done something even worse than what we’ve already established and observed. God, I hope not. This is not fun stuff I’m (we’re) going through.
If it sounds like I’m echoing a lot of what was previously reported, it’s because I’ve observed all this firsthand from getting treatment and from endlessly talking to patients.
I WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR: I AM NOT TRYING TO STRICTLY ENDORSE THIS DOCTOR. I AM TRYING TO BE FAIR IN SAYING THAT HE’S PRACTICALLY TREATING SEEMINGLY LEGITIMATE AND LOGICAL AREAS AFFECTED BY OUR CONDITIONS AND THE PHARMACEUTICAL DRUG WE ALL TOOK. AND IT TAKES TIME, PERHAPS MUCH MORE TIME FOR A REVERSAL OF FIBROSIS. AND MAYBE SOME OF US, MAYBE I AM FAR TOO GONE. BUT THESE AREAS DESERVE ATTENTION, MORE RESEARCH. GO AHEAD AND RESEARCH THE PROSTATE, IMMUNE FUNCTION, FIBROSIS, PENILE REHABILITIATION, PROSTATECTOMIES, PROSTATE CANCER, PROSTATITIS CENTERS AND SO ON. DON’T BE SO EAGER TO DISCREDIT THIS THEORY, THIS PART OF TREATMENT, OR THIS DOCTOR. DON’T DISRESPECT THE BRAVE GUYS WHO HAD THE GUMPTION TO TRAVEL TO A FOREIGN COUNTRY AND ENDURE THIS TREATMENT–GIVE THEM SOME TIME, SOME SUPPORT. THEY (WE) DON’T NEED “I-TOLD-YOU-SOs.” AND DESPITE THE DISRESPECT, WE COME BACK TO REPORT AND TRY TO SHOUT LOUDER THAN THE PREVIOUS GUY SO THAT SOMEONE, EVEN ONE PERSON, MIGHT BE ABLE TO MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION.
One more time: we don’t know the outcome…but we have logical targets for treatment. Guys, be more logical, don’t be too smart for your own good. Don’t trash new treatments and doctors—consider how many thousands of dollars have been poured into hormonal treatments, surgeries, procedures, supplements and so on, prescribed by PFS doctors with no results. Why are we so quick to indict someone? If you haven’t been here, you won’t really have an understanding of what’s going on, it’ll seem fairy-tale like. But you are miles and miles away from this reality that a bunch of us are going through. Try to have some patience and use your energy to RESEARCH. RESEARCH these connections I mentioned, research therapies. BUT DISCUSS THEM WITH DOCTORS AND PROFESSIONALS. DON’T FURTHER SCREW UP YOUR SYSTEM. Even some of the guys who have been through the initial round of CP I fear can be impatient and mix in too many supplements during and after treatment, always trying to gain (an understandable) edge, or stop short of receiving the FULL treatment, and doing all necessary diagnostics for our complicated situation. Consider what our bodies, our poor taxed bodies, our livers and organs have to go through to process all this junk. And what if there’s this MAJOR roadblock that is in the way that we keep ignoring, or, rather, FEEDING?
Now, as far as Solonjk is concerned, he is a unique case, with severe testicular atrophy. If he hadn’t listened to the terrible advice to supplement hormones instead of finding out why he had an imbalance in the first place, he might not be in this situation now. So, in the emotional state that he’s in, he posted something which lacked some context. It came across as crazy to me. But after speaking with him today, I a can assure you that the guy is not crazy, he is just frustrated with his predicament. His persistent infection/inflammation causes hormonal disarray which, despite having good erectile function (and improved erectile function post CP-treatment), has made him a wreck. PFS hits us all differently. He would die to have his life/energy back, so sexual ability is not as important to him. For me, it’s everything. But what he is contemplating doing (and this has NOTHING to do with Dr. Georgiadis, fyi), is rather than feeding his present infection/inflammation with hormones to fix the hormonal imbalance and worsen the infection…remove the prostate ROBOTICALLY (with a greater likelihood of no nerve damage according to him–I don’t know enough about this), and then supplement remaining hormonal needs (like DHT). He may be completely wrongheaded and emotional (and you guys can intelligently debate this topic separately from CP treatment and his improvement from that in and of itself), or there may be some logic to it, but you have to understand how shitty the guy feels to be thinking of something so radical and progressive at the same time. WHEN YOU FEED CP WITH HORMONES AND FLIRT WITH ANTIBIOTICS THAT DON’T FULLY ERADICATE THE CP, YOU WILL END UP WITH RESISTANT STRAINS. STOP THE SELF-MEDICATION! Personally, I feel that a prostatectomy is a complete last resort, and having already been cut up to no relief, am very weary of surgeries. I don’t completely understand the logic, and I don’t know enough about the science behind his medical complications, but I respect Solon’s knowledge and research and pain.
Solon is in a tough spot, he has to do what he thinks he has to do for his health, and so I feel his posts tend to be emotional, but the guy keeps coming back to inform people and is fed up with the predicament, fed up with the naysayers. So now you guys are sparring, and tell me, how productive is that? Why are you killing the messenger? Do you think that if you say you don’t have prostatitis or fibrosis enough times, that you don’t have it? It’s like some of you want this idea to be wrong because the reality is scary and the potential treatment out of reach, to impractical (travel, expenses), and so on. And I can understand that. I don’t want to come across as having all the answers, because I don’t, and I’ve been burned by medical treatments in the past, so I’m very weary of prematurely posting anything. And I’m very scared myself. I really hope that finasteride hasn’t permanently rendered me useless. But it may have. And I feel I have no choice but to proceed with logical, practical treatments. Any information to this effect would be greatly appreciated. Get researching people! Start helping each other and connecting the dots. Don’t keep resigning yourselves to this “my brain doesn’t feel my penis” mentality, ignoring that your penis might be broken–If so TRY to fix it. YOUR ACTUAL PENIS MIGHT NOT BE SENDING SIGNALS BACK. IT MIGHT BE WEAK, DISTRAUGHT, UNHEALTHY, COLD AND DEAD.
My conscience is clear. I don’t have the answers, I cannot tell anyone whether to visit this doctor or not, whether to spend the money, endure the pain, risk the consequences, but I cannot watch people needlessly and prematurely tarnish the general theory, treatment, and character of this doctor whom they have not met, who works LONG days, in a physical manner (when he could just dispense drugs like other docs). If you want to send hatemail, I pity you, I’m not going to entertain it, I have better things to do. I hope this helps someone out there and that I did not write this in vain. Apologies in advance, but I cannot keep preoccupied with this thread or answer questions now, because I’ve laid out the basic concepts…it’s simply a waiting game, with a lot of intense, hard work. I wouldn’t wish finasteride on my worst enemy. Wish me and those of us who have enlisted in this process luck, and perhaps consider strategies for preserving your penises; but do your due diligence on this matter, study it and weigh the pros and cons, don’t do it because I reported it. Good luck!
P.S. I’m not a doctor, not a scientist, and I’m not smarter than a lot of of you guys with elaborate theories. I could be totally wrong about all this, but I’m only posting so that people have a more clear picture of what could be at work. I’m posting the post I would want to read if I knew someone was out there seeing and doing what I’m doing. I do not plan on actively engaging in this “debate,” however. I’m very stressed, tired and depressed from my entire 4+ year bout with finasteride, I’m emotionally spent, I’ve emptied my pockets, my love life has been ruined, I’ve been socially alienated, and my life/career-path has been destroyed. I don’t need more grief. I’m only trying to share some newly-acquired insight. I hope that this time around, some dozen doctors later, that this provides relief, and that I have not permanently, irreversibly been fucked over by finasteride as I have often feared. I’m hanging on to the hope I have, and I want to make sure that some of you out there on the edge also have something to hold on to. Hope this all helps.
Post Radical Prostatectomy ED Rehab Strategies.pdf (68.9 KB)
Long-term effects of Finasteride on Prostate tissue composition.pdf (530 KB)
Finasteride reduces prostatic vascularity rapidly within 2 weeks.pdf (148 KB)
Effects of Finasteride and Bicalutaminde on prostatic blood flow in the rat.pdf (65.1 KB)
Evidence for atrophy and aptosis in prostates of men taking Finasteride.pdf (2.5 MB)
DHT is the active androgen in the Maintenance of Nitric Oxide-Mediated Penile Erection in the Rat.pdf (880 KB)
Androgens regulate PDE-5 expression and functional activity in corpora cavernosa.pdf (655 KB)
Androgens play a Pivotal Role in Maintaining Penile Tissue Architecture and Erection.pdf (907 KB)
