Prostatitis treatment as a novel insight into Finasteride related problems

General Discussion
#41

I also read with great interest this thread. I have been on the board for a while, don’t say much, but have tried just about everything. I haven’t been on the board lately because I’m doing so much better, though this link was passed to me.

Back in November of 2010 I started a 10 day fast, after the 10 fast I started with over the counter anti-candida supps, and implemented what is essentially an anti-candida diet. The diet is very strict. In December of 2010 I obtained nystatin from my GP, and I noticed that it started helping after 6 weeks. I also started taking multiple digestive enzymes and probiotics. At the time I was treating candida not because I was sure that I had it, but because the treatment was bringing sustained benefits – no honeymoon periods we so commonly see with other treatments.

Let’s fast forward to now – I take almost triple the amount of Nystatin, a few rounds of Diflucan, and still maintaining the same diet. I have also received a dark filed microscopy confirmation of the existence of systemic candida. Basically, there is yeast (candida) everywhere in the blood. How did it get there? I really don’t know, though if I was to postulate an idea it may be something like:

  1. Fin weakened our immune system and this caused the favorable gut bacteria to die
  2. Once the favorable gut bacteria died off, the yeast was free to proliferate
  3. Once free, the yeast mutated into its pathogenic form
  4. Once pathogenic it permeated the intestinal walls (leaky gut) and began to seep out into the blood
  5. It attached to the organs that are close to the gut first i.e., liver, prostate, pancreases, etc.
  6. We start to experience sides – the liver cannot detox well due to lack of bile flow and that which is released by the liver seeps through the permeable intestines back into the blood. The prostate is infected, pancreas, even the brain. Hormones are now unstable and unbalanced and messing with them only makes it worse.

Is this right? I don’t know. Is there “scientific evidence” supporting it? To a degree – you can do the research it’s all out there.

Can the infection in the prostate that is mentioned in this thread be Candida? Candida protects itself by constructing a cell well which is composed of ergosterol and chitin. It is this which makes it so difficult to kill off.

As of current I have made considerable improvement. No, I’m not 100%. Before this I was 10-15%, maybe 25% on a very good day. Now I’m around 65% percent consistent and 80% on a good day ( I think that is good for almost 5 months treatment). Most doctors indicate that it will take a year to 18 months to fully beat this, though I have been making radical consistent improvement so far. I’m curious how this may all tie in with the information on this thread.

#42

I would like to throw this thread in the mix here, hope you dont mind iwgu. In particular the first post showing i wont give ups results and my second to last post showing what Dihydroxyphenylpropionic acid (DHPPA) is, and its potential to possibly cause brain fog.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4444

#43

So are you two seeing the same doctor?

(Also, ‘Parasites’ - seriously??? What type of parasite???)

#44

Anyone living on the east coast of the US have a doctor that runs this test or will run it? This could be difficult to convince my endo doctor to run this one. I would also like to use someone with experience running this test.

Maybe this explains why I have some increased sensations of night time wood while I’m on HC. It also explains the immune system problems and why many of us have low white blood cell counts.

solonjk,

You listed all of the symptoms below when you started this thread. I’m trying to educate myself on Prostatitis. I have all of these symptoms, but would really like to see these listed on site about this subject. I’m trying to build an argument for my doctor. I searched with Google and didn’t find much.

Also Which one of the 4 types of Prostatitis are we likely to have?

#45

Ok either way Awor, Dexamethasone works to some extent… should we just start gassing up on it in that case?

#46

candida - prostatitis link (rare)
journals.lww.com/infectdis/Fulltext/2006/07000/Prostatitis_Due_to_Candida_albicans.13.aspx

another connection:
prostatitis.org/fungus.html

#47

Guys, please… don’t start up with the candida nonsense. This has been debunked many times in the past across numerous threads on this site.

For example:

Candida does not cause you to lose nocturnal, morning or spontaneous erections within days of depriving your body of DHT – androgen deprivation therapy (Finasteride) does. Loss of morning erections was a statistically significant event compared to placebo in the FDA Propecia clinical trials.

Candida does not cause depression, anxiety or memory impairment – Finasteride inhibition of 5AR2-derived neurosteroids does. Numerous studies have shown Finasteride inhibits neurosteroids in the brain, and the potential cognitive ramifications of the deficits of Allopregnanolone and THDOC.

Candida does not cause changes in semen viscosity, decreased semen output or force – Finasteride does via prostatic involution and cellular apoptosis. This is a documented side effect of the drug as listed by Merck and in various studies, including decreased semnical vesicle weights and changes in fertility.

Candida does not cause complete loss of sex drive or genital shrinkage within 2 weeks of quitting the drug – the massive drop in Testosterone production to hypogonadal values does. The more presseing question is WHY does this happen, and why do most men fail to respond to androgens from this point forward despite androgen supplementation or increases in their own levels.

Candida does not cause penile and scrotal tissue numbness – inhibition of 5AR/DHT/AR and Nitric Oxide synthase in those tissues does. Again there are studies showing androgens are required for proper genital size and function, the loss of which lead to tissue death, fibrosis, collagenous fiber deposits and decreased nerve capacity in both penile and prostatic nerve bundles which nourish the penis.

Candida does not cause gynecomastia, Finasteride does by altering the androgen/estrogen ratio in otherwise healthy men. This has been documented and is a listed side effect of the manufacturer, the potential outcome of which can rarely lead to male breast cancer (also a warning now added to the label for drug).

Please, think logically and review the mechanisms of action of Finasteride and what it does rather than grasp at straws in your searches for answers.

1 Like
#48

Nothing has been debunked. It’s this expected backlash to anyone discussing the C-word that prevents people who’ve confirmed the presence of systemic yeast and who are improving significantly from reporting back.

I don’t understand how we can afford to be so dogmatic in which theories we choose to entertain. If another theory is so strong, a few confirmed cases of Candida won’t displace them. As if they even need to!

The original poster of this thread has tried every treatment under the sun, mentions exploring candida, and a couple of folks come forward to comment on their experience. Why the dismissal of anything that doesn’t fit a preconceived notion? Is it because then we don’t have finasteride to blame? Because those of us behind the scenes who buy into Candida being at least part of the equation believe that it’s finasteride that screws up our organs, our immune system, our everything and allows such an infection to occur.

Objectively speaking, lots of men, of all ages can experience erectile dysfunction. Some will happen to have taken finasteride. For some of these people, the finasteride use is coincidental, perhaps not the primary cause, or perhaps a double whammy. There are physical, mechanical causes of E.D., and there are many other reasons a person will get E.D., and there are many reasons to believe that finasteride can initiate a storm inside a male’s body. I would in no way venture to say that everyone, or even a significant percentage of the population on this forum suffer from Candida. But when you have confirmed diagnosis, you treat. Why create an environment that discourages people from sharing anything they’ve experienced relief from?

There are threads on this forum for the thyroid, on HPTA dysregulation, on the liver, etc. Every damn organ. I think they’re all fucked! There is no such thing as an isolated part of the human body, it’s all inter-connected, and our commonly-termed PFS is a manifestation and conglomeration of a multitude of knobs that need tweaking within our systems.

When I think back to my crash, my susceptibility to infection, my general malaise, my fatigue, etc., I remember having the distinct feeling that my immune system was shutting down. I was at an all-time low, system was haywire.

I’ve had surgery, I’ve had TRT, I’ve taken a million damn supplements and medicines. I’m still not there. All I can do is chip away. And changing my diet (and I mean for the last 6 months, super-religiously) and taking anti-fungal products has produced the improvements I mentioned earlier. The same tactics have made someone I’ve met personally able to have rounds of sex whereas before he was just as impotent as me. Now I come across a thread that mentions prostatitis, something I never really considered. The author of the post mentions candida. A connection is made in my head…what if? This is simple brainstorming. Let people come forth and share ideas and personal experiences. There sure are a million other threads containing treatments and medicines that did not work. What’s the harm here?

Mew, I have the utmost respect for you and your intellect, and what you do for all of us. Please do not misconstrue this as being a confrontational attack. I just really would rather we dispense with the back and forth about even being allowed to discuss this topic. I’ve seen it happen in other candida threads, and I would hate to stunt the momentum of people contributing ideas in the context of the original poster’s message on prostatitis and questions regarding the connection to candida.

#49

Those symptoms are the ones that patients of his doc were experiencing… NONE of these are prostate related, yet once he performed that treatment on the prostate, nearly all of the patients were back to normal…

#50

I wrote my previous post upon seeing just the first line; with regards to the rest of the entry on candida “vs.” finasteride: I do not understand why candida and finasteride use or any other diagnosis of ailment must be mutually exclusive. Not everyone has the exact same pattern of illness. There may be 5 variations, or 10 or 100. We may have a common set of top 5 or 10 complaints, but they’re not always identical.

Yeah, there are a lot of scammers selling b.s. products on candida, and yeah, a lot of docs, make that most, won’t acknowledge it—sound familiar?

I became interested in this thread because of solonjk’s info on prostatitis. I do not know if I have prostatitis, but I do know I have some of the symptoms. And I’m trying to make some connections to some things that I have confirmed diagnoses for.

The way I look at it, every little thing I can do to improve my health, my immune system, every organ, is worth examination and trying.

All the things you say are not linked to candida–essentially endocrine system illness-are linked to candida. Doesn’t mean that everyone has it. Doesn’t mean that my problems end when I eradicate it. But it’s one piece of the puzzle for me, and at least a handful of others who’ve had detailed analyses performed. Solonjk himself said that while he’s been diagnosed with Prostatitis, it doesn’t rule out a level of androgen resistance. If your thyroid is messed up, it doesn’t mean your liver isn’t also messed up.

It is not inconceivable, especially for those of you out there with a history of IBS-type symptoms, hemorrhoids, antibiotic use, high processed carb/sugar diet that finasteride triggered something in your system. Or magnified a prostate inflammation as was suggested.

If it was so obvious that we’re merely androgen deprived, we would be hearing more recoveries from people who shoot up T like body builders who restart their systems. There is so much reason to doubt this, yet the first thing any doctor will do (and understandably so) is give you clomid. Again, this is an appeal to just let the convo, in the context of this thread (not another person’s unrelated theory’s thread) unfold as it may. Let’s allow those who are experiencing symptoms of prostatitis or candida or infection or immune deficiency report, compare, discuss. How many of us have had crash courses in reading lab results after being told by docs that “everything was normal”? Only to later realize that ranges are relative. That TSH alone doesn’t tell the full picture. That “normal” is based on the assumption that the people who tested the original assay were perfectly healthy? I don’t put stock in that standard blood panel that says everything is all right, when I’ve seen for my own eyes a disgusting mess under the microscope. On a personal note, my mother, a former immunohematologist reviewed the DVD recording of my 1 hour blood analysis—she was aghast! She looked at me and wondered how I could “appear so healthy” when she was looking at the blood of a sick person.

Gosh, I hate to preach, I just want this discussion to keep flowing. We all just want to get better. This PFS shit has taken 4 years of my life. I don’t know that any singular associated condition is the answer (candida included), but I sure do want to address it and be aware of anything I might be missing. I want my liver, my gut, my immune system, and everything in the best possible shape. I’m tired of docs simply wanting to shoot me up with Testosterone. I wanna know what all root causes for my misalignment are, if you will. So pipe up people! Share, discuss! :slight_smile:

#51

good source of info on prostatitis (no apparent commercial ties):

prostatitis.org/causes.html

Bacterial infection,
Auto-immune response or disordered immune response,
Neuromuscular, tension or physical injury problem
Additional possible causes:
a uric acid disorder,
prostate stones,
a urethral stricture,
a rare tumor,
prostate cancer,
benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH, non-cancerous growth of the prostate),
a food allergy,
a yeast infestation, prostatitis.org/yeastessay.html
a specific yeast problem from the Genus Candida,
or a virus.

#52

mew, the problem is to find a univocal pattern for PFS.
if not, anyone can doubt on his personal situation

#53

Sounds like your getting conned then.

Why was this blood test ordered in the first place?

Are naturopaths/homeopaths involved?

If you are seeing the same ‘doctor’ as Ihatepropecia702 how did this doctor come to be seeing two post-fin patients?

#54

Regarding candida and those who believe they are treating it and improving their symptoms, you are guessing at the cause and not attributing other benefits of lifestyle changes to your improved condition. The paleo diet alone can be credited for improvement in overall condition but it doesn’t mean you are curing candida and therefore your PFS problems.

You are simply attributing a suspected benefit from a diet change to the elimination of a suspected cause (candida).

Fin may have weakened some immune systems and allowed candida to infect some but for the overwhelming number of people here this isn’t the case. Just by eating paleo over the long term you are supplying your body with different and plentiful proteins it may not have been getting before despite possible existence of candida.

If you think candida is your issue find a message board that deals with it, run through the treatments, if you get cured come back and tell us how and why. If you still end up with PFS problems, which you probably will because candida doesn’t cause man-tits, share your experience here.

I for one am skeptical about the long term viability of the prostate treatment too. Whenever I get anything massaged I end up with more problems than when I started. I hope it works. But whenever I get massaged I get tighter, weaker muscles that feel much worse for an extended period of time. I suspect that what the prostate massages are doing is stimulating the prostate but over time you will grow tolerant to this and lose benefit. I hope I’m wrong. Please keep us updated.

#55

HI LADS, NEW PFS VICTIM HERE.VERY INTERESTED IN FINDING OUT THE NAME OF THE DOCTOR PERFORMING THIS TREATMENT,IM WILLING TO TRY ANYTHING TO GET MU MOJO BACK…

#56

There is some anecdotal evidence on this site that antibiotics can provide some degree of relief. This may well apply to dexamethasone as well, possibly by a mechanism identical to that of antibiotics (acetylation, inhibition of deacetylase - as stated in my post above). I was just providing a more plausible explanation as to why antibiotics and dexamethasone (along with GHB) may work. The prostate theory is not a credible one. I couldn’t find any peer reviewed literature that supports the notion that prostatitis can cause things such as rapid muscle wasting, tinnitus, accelerated hair loss or severe endocrine disorders.

The following scientific review came up with an endocrine disorder incidence rate of 6.3% amongst prostatitis patients:
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1525-1497.2001.01223.x/full
Compare this to the more like 70% endocrine disorder incidence rate we are seeing on this site (hypogonadal LH/T, thyroids, etc.). Also, the causative relationship between mental disorders and prostatitis is not clear in scientific literature (what causes what). In other words, depression may also cause prostatitis and not necessarily the other way around. We’re not talking about the same problem here.

At the end of the day, if these substances help - and your doctor is agreeable to prescribing them - then yes, it may be a path forward. From a HDACI point of view, I find it plausible that they could work. The only problem with these substances is - as usual - the side effects (and in the case of antibiotics - creating antibiotic resistance).

I would welcome a thread such as “Post your experience with Antibiotics/HDACI agents here”, similar like the one we have for TRT (just experience reports please - no discussions). This way we could gain a better overview and how antibiotics and other HDACI agents work for people (this would also include dexamethasone, GHB, etc.). I find the discussion highly interesting, even if I don’t agree with the prostatitis part of it.

#57

Yes i do think antibiotics can help people. I had a degree of success when on them. However, this didn’t stick when i stopped. I am not convinced there is much evidence to suggest we suffer from an infection and even if we did it is unlikely that it would cause the syndrome we have.

Awor - could you give more evidence for when you say antibiotics and GHB are both HDACIs? I can’t find much that says antibiotics are. I have tried both GHB and antibiotics and had more success with antibiotics. Is there any evidence to suggest nystatin does something similar?

I would suggest people try antibiotics and post their results up.

#58

Ihatepropecia702 and I have a couple of doctors in common who are not naturopaths (sensing a derogatory tone there). As an aside, I see no reason to knock a non M.D. It was an M.D. that prescribed me propecia. And multiple M.D.s have denied that propecia could be responsible for my illness. (Although most do not).

The visual blood inspection was done in person in real time with a nutritional microscopy microbiologist. Ihatepropecia suspected Candida, treated and saw improvements, and later sought visual confirmation. I too, sought this confirmation as I did not trust the notoriously unreliable standard Candida antibodies testing (what if your immune system is so suppressed that you cannot even produce proper antibodies?) and had a high probability of infection based on the official questionnaire which more reliably diagnoses the condition. The con might be the reliance on standard Labcorp blood panel testing. Just 'cause it appears normal, doesn’t mean it is. Same goes for the liver values; the only way to know if you have liver damage is to have a biopsy (no thanks). Just saying…

Anyways, you’ll find that if you present this data to a progressive doc (you know, one that “believes” in PFS, issues TRT, and “believes” in adrenal “fatigue”) they’ll also be among the minority of docs who “believe” and treat Candida, and have detoxification protocols.

I’m not going to continue the back and forth regarding candida. It’s silly. Such a shame that people feel it’s all or nothing. That you have to draw a straight line from Candida to our symptoms. That finasteride cannot be the catalyst, the major player. That Candida cannot be but one manifestation of a lot of things that go wrong when one takes finasteride. Remember, most people don’t experience the prolonged side effects. Nobody has explained why we continue to have side effects upon discontinuation. It might be that we have outstanding prostate, liver and immune system issues.

As far as the Paleo diet is concerned, I’m a big, big, big proponent. In the course of treating myself and learning about the significance of nutrition, I’ve found that 99% of what we’re taught is bunk. (Key influential readings: Nutritional and Physical Degeneration by Weston A. Price; Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes; Fat and Cholesterol are Good for you! by Uffe Ravnskov, MD, PhD, The Primal Blueprint by Mark Sisson). So, no question, the Paleo diet (and thus the absence of sugars which feed fungus) improved my skin. My seborrheic dermatitis was well managed by daily topical Selsun Blue (selenium sulfide) application. But with the introduction of Diflucan/Nystatin, I found I no longer needed to do anything to my skin. No itchiness or redness or flaring up if I missed a Selsun Blue application. For someone who used Nizoral cream for years, this was a major breakthrough. I did some research and found:
[i]
[The significance of yeasts in seborrheic eczema].
[Article in German]
Buslau M, Hänel H, Holzmann H.

Zentrum der Dermatologie und Venerologie der Johann Wolfgang Goethe-Universität Frankfurt am Main.
Abstract

The high prevalence of seborrheic dermatitis in HIV-infected subjects has led to intensified the discussion of the etiopathogenesis of this dermatological disease. There is increasing controversy about the significance of Pityrosporum in seborrheic dermatitis. On the other hand, recent clinical and experimental data favor the role of intestinal candidiasis in seborrheic dermatitis: a high quantity of Candida in the feces of the affected patients, elevated phospholipase activity of the Candida sp. with special pathogenic relevance for mucosal adhesion and fast and long-lasting regression of seborrheic dermatitis after vigorous therapy with oral nystatin. Similar findings have been recorded in the seborrheic forms of psoriasis.[/i]

Bottom line: there is no need to shit on somebody else’s experience. If you have no reason to suspect candida or prostatitis, then don’t. If some of what people have written resonates with you, it could be a small or large part of what’s ailing you. Do your due diligence.

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to make some calls to urologists…I do hope that this thread gets back onto prostatitis and connections between prostatitis and infections and candida from those that have insight into those matters.

#59

One should always be careful with antibiotics.
Candida overgrowth is said to be most often the result of a long course (or repeated use) of antibiotics (they also kill the “good” intestinal flora that keep candida under control). Could this be the reason why the positive results from antibiotics dont stick upon cessation?
Anyone willing to try antibiotics should be propably be running a good quality probiotics concurrently and for a while after the treatment.
Also, based on what ive read, any possible mercury toxicity should be adressed or candida will come back forever.(google this)

Im am going to try this (mercuy chelation and candida treatment) before I try the heavy antibiotic prostatitis treatment, because I have used a lot of antibiotics in my life (especially during childhood), and have had very frequent balanitis (penis fungus infection) episodes in my life, also since childhood. I also used to have mercury dental amalgams (they have been removed now).
So, Im first doing mercury chelation, then candida treatment, then I’ll try solonjk prostatitis treatment if necessary, then propably use a candida detox protocol again for extra safety.

I share with Xhorndog the opinion that we should try to adress anything that could help us get better, even though it doesnt always seem to be linked with finasteride.

#60

Upon presenting my microscopic findings to my doctor, I was issued a 10-day cleansing cocktail (Amoxicillin, Metronidazole, Calrithromycin along with Omeprazole). This was in addition to antifungals (Nystatin, Fluconazole). As well as a plethora of high potency probiotics (VSL #3, etc.).

Let me tell you, that 10 days was fucking hell. I was homebound, shitting my brains out 7-8 times a day, just shit soup. I was lethargic, drained, fever-like at times. I tried hanging out with friends towards the end of the cleanse, but felt so exhausted and frail. It took a few weeks to regain some strength. What I experienced is supposedly die-off symptoms.

Now, ironically, right after the 10-day cleanse, I started another trial run of Cabergoline (just one dose on a Monday and one dose on a Thursday). Unlike my first attempt at using cabergoline (2 weeks, no results), I got severely constipated, something the doc expected to happen the first time. I took lots of magnesium to loosen things up, but it only modestly helped, it was painful and scary. Digestive enzymes finally did the trick (and I suspect time). Since then, I’ve been super regular, stomach feels really really good (I’ve had a history of stomach troubles). I feel the detox supplements and digestive enzymes are doing their work.

My warning to anyone trying to experiment with antibiotics: they kill everything. MAKE SURE YOU REPOPULATE YOUR GUT WITH BENEFICIAL BACTERIA. Also, as far as Nystatin, unfortunately, I’m still trying to get my hands on the (more effective and pure) powder version.