Prostatitis treatment as a novel insight into Finasteride related problems

Some links would be good. I dont doubt this can happen but I couldnt find any examples when I searched.

Also, are we now saying WOMEN suffer problems from accutane in the same way as finasteride (if it does inhibit 5aR) despite no 5aR being found in the female genitals and despite it seemingly only causing a small reduction in circulating DHT and 3aDiolG and these androgens only being found in minute amounts in the female anyway? That points away from a link imo. Although I dont rule it out.

archderm.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/124/4/540
Effect of Isotretinoin on Serum Levels of Precursor and Peripherally Derived Androgens in Patients With Acne

nature.com/jid/journal/v105/n2/abs/5610794a.html
Activity of the Type 1 5a-Reductase Exhibits Regional Differences in Isolated Sebaceous Glands and Whole Skin

Back to [Size=4]BREAKTHROUGH TREATMENT - NOVEL INSIGHT IN FINASTERIDE RELATED PROBLEMS[/size]…

Solonjk–any updates on your treatment, the new antibiotic you were awaiting or further insights from Dr. Georgiades?

Thanks.

I have been considering this thread in the back of my head and wasn’t sure if this could be the problem or not, considering JN’s recovery and others who have had thyroid replacement and cortisol. However, based on recent findings, I can say my symptoms match up pretty well to prostate problems. Here are some things that I have found that I think make some good points in relation to our problem.

Point 1: No masturbation over time brings me back to more feeling normal. Many people advocate no masturbation.

I found this website: herballove.com/article.asp?art=547 which said some interesting things regarding the prostate and masturbation. i personally have found in my own experience that i reach a point where i am somewhat normal after no masturbation for about 2 or 3 weeks, then i will masturbate then have a crash again.

“requent ejaculation can certainly cause or aggravate prostate problems. But masturbation, fantasy, and excessive sexual activity, even without ejaculation, can induce a state of inflammation that causes prostate problems. Other causes include poor diet, drug and medication use, or any other activities that induce a state of inflammation in the body.”

further it says…

" Frequent ejaculation abrades your prostate, bulbourethral glands and urethra and induces extra production of prostaglandin-E2 for swelling and burning. A swelling prostate and urethral duct causes you to experience urination difficulty after ejaculation. This is why some men experience post-ejaculation pelvic or prostate pains and precum/semen leakage in the post-ejaculation state. "

this would explain my elevated E-2 levels because I usually do masturbate before I do my bloodtests because someone I know recommended me to so we can see the “issue”. i’d have to see my blood tests with no masturbation for a prolonged period of time to know if this is correct, and i know many people have different levels of severity so it could be false. possibly the prostate is more inflamed to cause people to have these high E-2 levels without masturabation?

then i was thinking how would it be possible for people to have recoveries from thyroid related treatments if its prostate related. i found this… endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/140/4/1665

now there’s a lot of sciency type stuff in here and maybe someone will find something i didn’t, also a lot of adrogen related material its very complicated i want to go over it more in depth, but in the results it said…

" As shown in Fig. 1B, the growth of PC-3 cells was significantly stimulated by T3, though high concentrations of T3 were required (10-7–10-5 M)."

i’m assuming this is saying that t3 causes prostate cells to grow. that would possibly explain the whole “reverse t3” thing where you need to have very high amounts of T3 in order to “flush it out”, when maybe in reality you were just growing your prostate back to normal size?

also it would explain how people recovered by taking T4. it didnt make sense the whole reverse t3 syndrome by people taking t4 and recovering because t4 gets turned into reverse t3 according to the theory… with this, the extra t4 does its just and gets turned into t3 and grows the prostate. just a theory…

thats just some stuff i found to be related to this and our symptoms… i’m not 100% on it, but it seems like it could be promising if i interpreted the information correctly, again not sure if i did.

This is a doctor based out of the Philippines who has a similar take on Prostatitis (with respect to drainage/prostate massage + antibiotics) as Dr. Georgiades:

prostate.com.ph/services.htm
(click on Chronic Prostatits Link)

Chronic Prostatitis and Chronic Pelvic Pain Syndrome
Prostatitis is a clinical syndrome that has been categorized into 4 major symptoms such as Pelvic Pain, Urinary Symptoms, Sexual Dysfunction Symptoms, and Systemic Symptoms. Lately, elevated PSA values, histological findings of inflammation in biopsied prostate specimen and infertility was also included.

heres another doctor i found in hong kong that uses chinese herbs, among other things. this one looks promising. we need to find in the usa, they have to be here. i found this off google… it looks like its highly optimized for the search engines, so exercise caution in using this doctor, not really sure or know anything about them.

prostatitishome.com/index.html

more prostate docs, the first link provides a very interesting writeup:

NYC doc - fertilitysolution.com/Treatment-for-Chronic-Prostatitis/ [link fixed!]
LA - prostateoncology.com/staff/?pg=duke_bahn_cv
[Size=4]
taken w/o permission from an older post of Golf’s somewhere else on this forum[/size]

I’m circling back to all the prostatitis threads I never previously bothered to look at. Seems like there is a decent amount of folks with prostatitis-like symptoms…who perhaps have not received the proper treatment.

This Dr. Toth’s website is loaded w/ info.

fertilitysolution.com/Treatment-for-Chronic-Prostatitis/Etiologies-of-chronic-prostatitis.html

Excerpt:
[i]It is essential to be able to demonstrate bacteria reliably in the EPS, semen or both in order to reach the correct treatment decisions and to ensure a good outcome. Laboratory findings have shown in practice that almost all standard localization cultures are negative and that success in culturing bacteria from EPS is complicated by the presence of inhibitory substances known to exist in prostate secretion and by a history of multiple previous courses of antibiotics. Clear confirmation of the pathogenicity of bacteria in prostate tissue and/or ducts has been obtained with a group of gram-negative uropathogens including E. coli, Klebsiella spp., Serratia and Pseudomonas spp. There can also sometimes be gram-positive uropathogens such as Enterococcus spp. and Staphylococcus spp. present.

While acute prostatitis is characterized by polymorphonuclear leukocytic infiltration, the chronic phase of infection in chronic prostatitis is characterized by lymphocytic infiltrate. The degree of infiltration is not proportional to the clinical symptoms. The adjacent edema/collagen tissue formation depends on the nature of the bacteria, the host reaction to the infection, and the duration of the process. While mostly edema is seen in acute prostatitis, as the disease becomes chronic, fibrous collagen tissue will replace the prostatic tissues and later, nodular or symmetrical enlargement of the prostate will take place. Since the dawn of microbiology, repeated attempts have been made to isolate bacteria believed to be the cause of chronic prostatitis.

A number of studies implicate specific groups of bacteria but for one reason or another these studies are mostly inconclusive. Whether it was the sample size or the narrow spectrum of bacteria tested, the most these studies were able to establish was an association of a specific bacterium with prostatitis. Both gram negative and gram-positive bacteria have been implicated and are believed to be uropathogens. The anaerobic studies in most instances are hampered by the notorious difficulty encountered in isolating anaerobic bacteria. A number of studies implicate Ureaplasma/Mycoplasma as causative organisms. The same bacteria believed to cause acute prostatitis, if incorrectly treated, will become the cause for chronic bacterial prostatitis. I will list these bacteria when dealing with acute prostatitis.

Chlamydia trachomatis has been studied and implicated in a number of studies as well. As I mentioned before, in our clinic over 60% of patients presenting with the diagnosis of chronic prostatitis will reveal elementary bodies of Chlamydia in the smear prepared from a urethral swab. We use the fluorescence antibody technique to identify the elementary bodies. The antiserum is produced in animals and I believe it is more sensitive in detecting the elementary bodies of Chlamydia than the widely used PCR or nucleic acid amplification technique. My belief stems from the simple observation that after a relatively short antibiotic course, PCR tests can rapidly turn negative while the fluorescence antibody test will still reveal elementary bodies. A persistent positive reading with the antibody test is in synchrony with the clinical course and it turns negative following the resolution of the clinical symptoms. It has been documented that an amplification test used in certain parts of Sweden was unable to identify Chlamydia. Its inability to identify Chlamydia was not due to an actual drop of newly infected cases but rather to Chlamydia’s ability to change its surface antigens targeted by the testing kit. Since the fluorescence antiserum is produced in animals the host is likely to produce antibodies against many surface markers of Chlamydia, thus making the fluorescence antibody technique the gold standard for detecting Chlamydia infection.Unfortunately the test requires an expert to read it, and it is time consuming.

We believe that the most common cause of chronic prostatitis is a Chlamydia infection that is hardly ever treated properly at the time of the first visit.

The clinical course of chronic prostatitis cannot be explained well without recalling the lifecycle of Chlamydia trachomatis. The quick response to relatively short courses of antibiotic therapy at the beginning of the infection only eliminates those extracellular elementary bodies that are sensitive to that particular antibiotic. The relatively quick recurrence of the infectious symptoms is best explained by either the fact that bacteria that were not sensitive to the original antibiotic are now selected out and start multiplying even before the first course of antibiotic is finished. The second time around, therefore there is no symptomatic improvement from the same antibiotic, even if longer courses are prescribed. The second reason is that most prescribed antibiotics will only affect the extra cellular phase of bacterial growth. The intracellular multiplication and emergence of the reticulate bodies, after a symptom free period of varying length can cause recurring symptoms long after the initial antibiotic therapy is completed.Chlamydia is known to change its antibiotic sensitivity and it will alter its growth rate after exposure to multiple antibiotics. Also, the state of the immune system and host of other factors can influence the effect of Chlamydia on the host’s tissues. As the growth rate of the intracellular forms of Chlamydia diminishes and eventually spore forms develop, the time interval between reoccurrences widens. Chlamydia is uniquely suitable to interact with intracellular nucleotides, thus, as it has been associated with increased female cervical cancer risk,it would not be an unreasonable speculation to associate chronic Chlamydia infection with the development of prostate cancer.

It is good to remember that Chlamydia trachomatis is not one bacterium. Within the family an infinite variety of different sub species can be found. These bacteria differ not only in their size and multiplication rate but they can have different pathogenic potential, including different interaction with the immune system, different antibiotic sensitivity, different speed in developing resistance to antibiotics and different ways of coexisting, irritating or destroying the tissues they infect.

The clinical course of chronic prostatitis cannot be explained well without recalling the lifecycle of Chlamydia trachomatis. The quick response to relatively short courses of antibiotic therapy at the beginning of the infection only eliminates those extracellular elementary bodies that are sensitive to that particular antibiotic. The relatively quick recurrence of the infectious symptoms is best explained by either the fact that bacteria that were not sensitive to the original antibiotic are now selected out and start multiplying even before the first course of antibiotic is finished. The second time around. Therefore there is no symptomatic improvement from the same antibiotic, even if longer courses are prescribed. The second reason is that most prescribed antibiotics will only affect the extra cellular phase of bacterial growth. The intracellular multiplication and emergence of the reticulate bodies, after a symptom free period of varying length can cause recurring symptoms long after the initial antibiotic therapy is completed.

Chlamydia is known to change its antibiotic sensitivity and it will alter its growth rate after exposure to multiple antibiotics. Also, the state of the immune system and host of other factors can influence the effect of Chlamydia on the host’s tissues. As the growth rate of the intracellular forms of Chlamydia diminishes and eventually spore forms develop, the time interval between reoccurrences widens. Chlamydia is uniquely suitable to interact with intracellular nucleotides, thus, as it has been associated with increased female cervical cancer risk, it would not be an unreasonable speculation to associate chronic Chlamydia infection with the development of prostate cancer.

It is good to remember that Chlamydia trachomatis is not one bacterium. Within the family an infinite variety of different sub species can be found. These bacteria differ not only in their size and multiplication rate but they can have different pathogenic potential, including different interaction with the immune system, different antibiotic sensitivity, different speed in developing resistance to antibiotics and different ways of coexisting, irritating or destroying the tissues they infect.

Possible temporary pathogens in prostate tissue and/or ducts under certain conditions can be: coagulase-negative Staphylococcus species, Chlamydia, Ureaplasma, Candida and Trichomonas.

Acknowledged not to be pathogens so far are: Diphteroids, Lactobacilli and Corynebacteria spp.[/i]

fertilitysolution.com/Treatment-for-Chronic-Prostatitis/Etiologies-of-chronic-prostatitis.html

And regarding “non-bacterial prostatitis”:

[i][Size=4]Microbiological Considerations[/size]
In our laboratory, a negative semen, urethral swab specimen or EPS culture is a very rare finding. Patients visiting us, in the great majority of cases, will bring along negative culture reports. The few positive microbiological findings encountered are without exception relatively fast growing aerobic bacteria. Isolation of anaerobic bacteria needs a minimum of ten days incubation, a length of time not affordable for commercial laboratories. Without the participation of a dedicated laboratory in sample analysis, the true microbiology of chronic prostatitis remains a confusing, anecdotal chapter in medicine. We also take issue with using PCR as the gold standard for testing for Chlamydia trachomatis. The Swedish experience has shown that Chlamydia is an exceptionally resourceful organism which is able to change its surface markers, thus enabling it to elude detection by a system that is looking for one or two specific markers. That phenomenon would explain why a PCR test turns negative after a relatively short antibiotic course. Animals injected with a mixture of different strains of Chlamydia trachomatis will produce IgG type antibodies against a wide range of markers of the OMP (Outer Membrane Protein) of Chlamydia. This antibody is used in the IFA (Immune Fluorescent Antibody) system. Even if the bacterium loses some of its surface markers during an antibiotic therapy course, there will be an ample number of markers left for the IFA antibody to adhere to and the attached fluorescent material will give away the presence of Chlamydia. Unfortunately, IFA testing is time consuming and needs trained eyes to read the slides. In our experience IFA is far superior in following treatment response than the PCR test. IFA detects Chlamydia elementary bodies in a significant number in Category 2 and 3 patients. Chlamydia is detected in significant frequency. These cases have responded favorably to injection therapy. Issues Concerning the Seminal Vesicles.

If the inflammation involves the seminal vesicles or extends beyond the prostate capsule, adhesions could form between the prostate or seminal vesicles and the pelvic side wall. Due to their anatomic proximity and communicating duct systems, transrectal ultrasound examination of the prostate should be considered incomplete without careful examination of the seminal vesicles. Injection therapy always should involve both seminal vesicles even if typical sonographic signs of chronic seminal vesiculitis are missing. Deep pelvic discomfort, lower back pain, reduced ejaculatory vo

fertilitysolution.com/Treatment-for-Chronic-Prostatitis/Non-bacterial-Prostatitis.html
[/i]

An Italian specialist (click on the arrows on the bottom/right to flow through the presentation of diagnosis and ultimately direct injection treatment similar to the above doctor’s method):
prostatitis2000.org/eng/intro.htm

List of prostatitis Clinics in U.S. and abroad:
prostatitis.org/clinics.html

Very interesting read, basically an infection can be very hard to detect and can even not show up on certain tests.

I have noticed that a few member are booked in for trans rectal ultrasounds or are going to be. Anyone that has one done, please post results in here or somewhere on the forum!

nhs.uk/Conditions/Prostatitis/Pages/Symptoms.aspx

NHS info on symptoms of Prostatitis; (the same symptoms are also found in the link provided by others!!!)

Acute prostatitis

•high temperature (fever) – 38ºC (100.4ºF) or above
•severe pain in the pelvis, genitals, lower back and buttocks
•pain when urinating
•frequent need to urinate
•difficult urinating, such as problems starting, or intermittent (‘stop-start’) urination
•pain when ejaculating

Chronic prostatitis

The symptoms of chronic prostatitis (both bacterial and non-bacterial) are the same as acute prostatitis, although the pain is not as severe. Other symptoms of chronic prostatitis include:

•tiredness
•joint pain
•muscle pain


What are we ignoring these symptoms (although, solonjk may have them) Those advocating that we all have prostatitis have to ignore all of the normal symptoms of such a condition and think it is only causing some, rarer?, symptoms. A massive leap of the imagination. We could just claim we have any old illness, ignore all of the normal symptoms and just pretend we are suffering only some very rare symptoms of that illness.

It also does not answer problems regards to other physical mental symptoms.

I know for a fact that prostatis can cause sexual dysfunction and some forms do not have any of the more noticeable side effects because my doctor and I researched it together. Again, Oscar, you are correct, we don’t know we have it until we get the ultrasound done. But it could be a possibility for some people.

I think what needs to happen is when people get the ultrasound done, then instead of arguing if its possible or not, we can work on treatment. I will hopefully be getting this ultrasound in the next 2 weeks. Waiting to make an appointment on insurance delays. :angry:

Spoke to my endo about this.

He is lining me up a prostrate MRI. He thought that would be more useful than a ultrasound? What do you guys think? He said it’d take up to 4 months though but atleast it’s another thing on the agenda.

Why not get both? I have not seen any of these prostate web sites discussing an MRI, but by all means do it. 4 months is a long time, though!

Both? I dunno. I maybe will in time.

It’s not at the absolute top of my priorites. 4 months passes quickly when im doing other stuff.

I would like someone to chime in and tell me if an MRI would be useful enough to spot potential problems?

I migth email that greek guy. I literally would take a month in the summer and travel over if i thought it would recover me. But i’d need some confirmatino of the prostrate being the definate source first, particularly when i dont have the generic symptoms (urination issues for instance),

My right hand man Chillin reckons his treatment plan can fix prostatitus naturally too. I’m giving preg (and maybe T3) a shot soon if the arimidex doesn’t start working its magic!!

I think Chillns treatment may cure Aids as well…

[attachment=0]Prostatits Symptoms Chart.png[/attachment]

lol

cross-referencing another thread here:

Recent Pat Antiinfect Drug Discov. 2009 Nov;4(3):206-13.
[Size=4]Rediscovering the antibiotics of the hive.[/size]
Boukraâ L, Sulaiman SA.
Source

Department of Pharmacology, School of Medical Sciences, Universiti Sains Malaysia, Health Campus, 16150 Kubang Kerian, Kelantan, Malaysia. lboukraa@kk.usm.my
Abstract
Honey and other bee products were subjected to laboratory and clinical investigations during the past few decades and the most remarkable discovery was their antibacterial activity. Honey has been used since ancient times for the treatment of some diseases and for the healing of wounds but its use as an anti-infective agent was superseded by modern dressings and antibiotic therapy. However, the emergence of antibiotic resistant strains of bacteria has confounded the current use of antibiotic therapy leading to the re-examination of former remedies. Honey, propolis, royal jelly and bee venom have a strong antibacterial activity. Even antibiotic-resistant strains such as epidemic strains of methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) and Vancomycine resistant Enterococcus (VRE) have been found to be as sensitive to honey as the antibiotic-sensitive strains of the same species. Sensitivity of bacteria to bee products varies considerably within the product and the varieties of the same product. Botanical origin plays a major role in its antibacterial activity. Propolis has been found to have the strongest action against bacteria. This is probably due to its richness in flavonoids. The most challenging problems of using hive products for medical purposes are dosage and safety. Honey and royal jelly produced as a food often are not well filtered, and may contain various particles. Processed for use in wound care, they are passed through fine filters which remove most of the pollen and other impurities to prevent allergies. Also, although honey does not allow vegetative bacteria to survive, it does contain viable spores, including clostridia. With the increased availability of licensed medical stuffs containing bee products, clinical use is expected to increase and further evidence will become available. Their use in professional care centres should be limited to those which are safe and with certified antibacterial activities. The present article is a short review of recent patents on antibiotics of hives.

[Size=4]PMID: 19673699[/size]

From the discussion on Royal Jelly here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=165&p=37162&hilit=royal+jelly#p37162