"prostate symptoms" are really pelvic floor/perinium?

Symptoms Physical
#141

Thanks Tpenf,
At one time she would have turned me on :frowning:

After quitting fin my prostate area started hurting(about 2 months after quitting) and my penis started losing sensitivity. I took Cyprofloxicin for several months and then started and am currently taking Doyclycline. About 3 weeks ago I was on vacation and took only a half dose of Doxycycline for 5 days. It was then that I noticed I did not have so much pain down there. I went back to regular dose and have not had pain since. The other drugs I take are synthoid for thyroid, testosterone, vitamin D, aspirin and zinc.
I know the pain could all come back tomorrow so Iā€™m not holding my breath.

I have not however had any sensation return to my penis or noticed any other changes.

#142

Obitoo on the HardFlacid forum reports that his testosterone levels rose considerably after his trigger point therapy for CPPS, also that he regained the size in his shrunken balls.

#143

The trigger point therapy would have released knots and spasm in fibres, thus releasing spasm in the pelvic floor and improving blood flow, including testosterone from the testes. As the testicles fire up or become more active, they return to their normal size. In the same vein, PFS sufferer testicles are not permenantly damaged, they are just very underactive, therefore smaller and sometimes harder. We have previously thought that our testicles are knackered or ā€œatrophiedā€ and that finsateride did this. This new school of thought actually moves away from this. I feel our testicles are severely restricted by what they can do, thatā€™s why they are smaller. The plevic floor is sort of trapping them and starving them of sending or receiving signals from the wider body.

Some of the more science based guys might be able to do some research into this. I know Oki mentioned something about GABA being the bodies natural valium and that the pelvic floor tissues were heavily dependant on this. Something happened during cessation of finasteride, or during therapy, that meant GABA production would no longer flow into these tissues or was restricted, leading to spasmism. How we reverse this now is key - maybe long term trigger point therapy, maybe powerplate abuse, maybe supplements, maybe internal massage, maybe a combination of all. What we need though is some more people to start coming forward with benefits from working on this angle, that way this theory starts to gather momentum, more people get on board and more chance of somebody finding that wonder therapy or supplement that targets exactly what weā€™re trying to do.

For me, it has become very clear that I can now maintain a pretty decent level of wellness by using the powerplate, but currently I am definitely the wrong side of that fine line between shit land and 100%. I think i will be hopping back and forth across this line for a few months yet before finally managing to get the other side permenantly. However, what I would like to hear about more is the supplement side of things. Does anyone have any recommendations on a variety of supplements we can take to release the pelvic floor? I know Quercetin is one, but is anyone able to list some supplements off and maybe describe their proposed method of action on the plevic floor. I think at this stage this would be really useful.

#144

via viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1630&start=120

i read something about quercetin somewhere elseā€¦ ugh i canā€™t remember what it is, but i donā€™t think itā€™s a good option.

i think also long term no masturbating may help.

#145

Alright Chi, Iā€™m on your team. There is one gym in my city with the powerplate, and I plan on acquiring a 7 day pass. If it works, Iā€™ll enroll for good (which would require me discontinuing my other gym membership). And itā€™s on the other side of town. Think itā€™s worth the effort?

#146

Just wanted to share a thought, I donā€™t want to go off topic but just wanted to ask a question which is linked to this theory (potentially) or I may be talking rubbish. I have always had an issue (pre and post fin) with urinating in public i.e. a ā€˜stage frightā€™ issue completely physiological as I can go in a cubicle or anywhere im aloneā€¦ none of my mates have this issue, they laugh at me for it. The reason I mention this is that when this happens its like a muscle contraction type thing that stops me going, if I really concentrate on relaxing I can sometimes go but in the main I cant. I read somewhere that a small about of guys suffer from this and I just wanted it check on the off chance that its not something some or many of us share, I am asking here given the effects that pelvic muscles have on urine flow etc.

#147

I have the same, but then again i had this slightly before fin, not nearly as bad though. For me it just supports the idea of pelvic muscle spasmism.

I am absolutely 100% down this avenue now and for so many reasons. It would be really good to get some support from people on the forum on the supplement side of things for releasing pelvic muscle spasmism and/or increasing GABAA for muscle relaxation in this region. We need a very targetted approach to this, but with more than just me going at it. Iā€™ve done some light research and cannot find anything that specifically talks about releasing severe Pelvic Floor tension.

#148

Yes

Go on it for 7 days straight and it would be good to see how youā€™re doing. Take 2000mg fish oil 1-2 hrs before going on it, this will help to relax you a bit.

#149

From my experience natural supplements do not help a whole lot.

Hydrocortisone and alpha-1 blockers defiantly help tho.

I have not tried, but there is a study that shows Gabapentin helps and also some on Benzos.

#150

fuck prescription drugsā€¦

glutamine and tyosine I believe are the pre cursors to GABA in the bodyā€¦ you should find what naturally makes what you are looking for and start taking itā€¦

#151

I have used glutamine and tyrosine. Neither have helped. I have used nearly every natural supplement under the sun.

The issue with many of these is that they work on multiple levels because they have multiple compounds and chemicals in them. For example, glutamine also will increase the NT glutamate, which is an excitatory NT.

Who cares if its natural or Rx. If it works it works. Either one can have possible side effects.

#152

Looks like Iā€™m heading for xyrem, then, to act on GABA

#153

can you go more into glutamine and how the increase in glutamate will affect us? iā€™m not familiar with glutamate or what NT is?

#154

NTs = nuerotransmitters

Basically you have two types of neurotransmittersā€¦excitatory and inhibitory. As the names imply - excitatory NTs tend to make you more energetic, tense, awakened, hypertrophic (think hard flaccid penis), etc - and inhibitory NTs tend to make you more relaxed, tired, calm, smooth, etc.

Some NTs have both inhibitory and excitatory actions, although not many.

GABA is an inhibitory NT. In fact, I believe it is by far the most numerous NT there is. It promotes muscle relaxation. A theory on this particular thread is that because Propecia inhibits 5AR, it also inhibits GABA (allopreganenlone acts on GABA receptorsā€¦allopregnanelone is made form progesteroneā€¦5AR is needed to convert progesterone into allopregnanelone). So with the GABA receptor not being acted upon by allopregnanelone, this causes ceratin muscles in our body to become tense and hypertrophic. Particularly our pelvic floor musclesā€¦

I donā€™t know if you have followed the thread on GHB, but it seems that anyone able to get a hold of it mentioned recovery or improved symptoms. Well, GHB acts mainly on GABA receptors.

To answer your question about Glutamate, it is also a NT that is very numerous. It is an excitatory NT. Now I am not saying that we have high Glutamate levels, but Glutamine is a precursor to Glutamate so it sort of would have the opposite effect from what we want.

Adrenaline (epinephrine) and noradrenaline (norepinephrine) are also very strong excitatory NTs.

#155

Interesting. I actually made a post in the GHB thread about how the GABA could possibly be relaxing the muscles in the pelvic floor region bringing relief for people.

I thought acetylcholine was the neurotransmitter responsible for adrenaline (also sweat)? Okay, so I see what you are saying when you said that glutamate is excitatory and could be causing problems, but glutamate is the pre cursor to GABA in the body, so I donā€™t understand if itā€™s doing bad or if itā€™s doing good.

Regarding adrenaline, I know GABA inhibits acetycholine, which is what I thought the glutamine was good option if it indeed was turned into GABA. I have read reports of people having high adrenaline like symptoms. also, the lack of sweating people experience or changes in sweating people experience, I thought may have been caused by too much acetylcholine, which I was thinking would be helped by GABA.

What do you think?

#156

Hang tight fellas, I have my GP appointment today where I plan on getting a referral to a sleep centre that prescribes Xyrem. My GP (a woman) has been very supportive throughout all of this, so I am optimistic all will go ok. I think it will come down to whether my PCT (Patient Care Trust or something) can afford the prescription. Itā€™s 13K per year!! I do have a good case though, my sleep has been consistently bad for almost 1 year now. Never wake up refreshed. At the moment itā€™s terrible. I will of course keep you all updated.

Moonman has explained the science very well, this was exactly my thought process too, I just canā€™t explain it with all the correct science terms.

#157

Good luck Chi! ā€˜Ehhā€™ has managed to get hold of GBL (which gets converted to GHB in the liver) will definitely be keeping an eye on his progress too!

Going by ithappens and paulwaters stories you may well not need anything like a years supply to (hopefully) correct the issues with gaba receptors, both definitely mention months if not weeksā€¦ obviously everyone is different but worth bearing in mind if cost became an issue.

#158

@CHI

In the United States, I recall seeing something stating the company which makes Xyrem offers a program for those in need where they can get Xyrem for free, or at least a very discounted rate. I do not know if this program is offered in the UK. For the life of me, I cannot remember the place I read this, but I will try to locate it and send you the link. In the meantime, research via internet any type of similar program in the UK. Of course, you will need the initial prescription. Sorry I do not have the link at the moment, but I will take a look.

#159

Thanks guys for the words of support.

I am very optimistic about this route I am taking. Itā€™s taken me almost a year to start really figuring out this problem, but I feel like iā€™m getting close to the heart of it now, thanks really to this thread and the 2 other GHB recovery threads; it really got my mind thinking about what has happened. I KNOW that I donā€™t have a problem with androgens or receptors per se, because I have had 2 periods where I was completely normal, albeit brief. I also get benefits from exercise, always have done, just not enough to cure myself. Fortunately, Iā€™ve not lost too much muscle either. This lead me to believe that my problem is something else. Sleep was an issue since the beginning, always present, but something iā€™ve just got used to. Itā€™s amazing how many things iā€™ve just got used to with this condition - like waking up feeling like a heap of shit, or the fact I canā€™t see properly. My hearing is starting to go recently too.

Other things that point to GABA for me is involuntary muscle spasm. My girlfriend laughs now when we fall asleep together; my leg or arm will just shoot off a couple of times as we fall asleep, my whole body flinches; you guys must know this as it has happened to most people even without this mess. I get it much more than before, but just got used to it. Anyway, shit loads of other issues that you all know about, iā€™ve got most on the list, fortunately I can still perform, albeit without any desire/libido. This leads me to believe that my situation actually bares an uncanny resemblance to ItHappens, so hopefully this bodes well as I intend to start Xyrem. Weā€™ll see, iā€™m going to try and tame my excitement though. Iā€™m not interested in GBL, I need to do this under competent medical staff with the proper stuff. Itā€™s likely I will start on other things such as GABApentin first, but when they see my medical history for the past year they may well put me straight on to Xyrem.

Thanks for the heads up re the Xyrem funding, Iā€™ll see what the outcome is with my GP visit and the sleep centre visits etc.

#160

Acetylcholine does not influence adrenaline a whole lot, at least not directly (ok it does but not in the sense we are talking). Adrenaline and Noradrenaline are catecholamines and actually get made from Dopamine, which gets made from DOPA, which gets made from the amino acid L- Tyrosine. It is actually very plausible that we all have low Dopamine levels, since it is THE most important chemical for libido. It is so tough to legitimately test for certain NTs though that its just speculation. There is a guy who is a medical consultant who states that many of the PFS patients he sees do have low Dopamine levels though. But again just speculation.

Acetylcholine is known to have some implications on the sympathetic system (excitatory). But it also can have some implications on the
parasympathetic system (inhibitory). Under normal conditions it is mainly parasympathetic, but considering so many systems in our body are just out of whack, its hard to say what it leans towards with us. I have used Choline and ALCAR supplements together, which the ALCAR will lend its acetyl group to the choline, so in theory AC should be more available. I can say that it helped more than hindered, but it was not nearly enough of a change to where I would ā€œrecommendā€ it.