Were you guys taking oral progesterone or cream? Thinking about picking some up today. These recoveries also coincide with mark.r.d’s story about how he recovered when he added in deca nandolone to his TRT regime(deca increases progesterone.)
Ok so after trying a small dose 2nd time round , i notice my libido has defs increased. Not to the way it was…but a big difference from where i was at the beginning of this mess. It is becoming easier to get a boner…but i still can’t feel it. Anyone had the same experience? Libido returning but estrogens must still be high because i got no ‘bone’ about my penis.
Ta
You could try an aromataze inhibitor to keep estrogen down as you take the progesterone, That way the progesterone won’t become estrogen, but stay as androgens.
I want to add my two cents to this potential treatment.
Lets start with what we know.
- We know our CSF is deficient in progesterone, dopamine and testosterone metabolites.
- We know our tissues show signs of androgen hypersensitivity
- We know finasteride inhibits 5 alpha reductase type 2 but also type 3 and type 1 and also inhibits the production of neurosteroids
- We know testosterone suppplementation has very mixed results at best and can actually worsen symptoms - most likely to post translational changes when in contact with a hypersensitive receptor.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16834758
Progesterone is a substrate of the 5 alpha reductase enzyme and competitively binds to the receptor. Thus progesterone decreases DHT. This will lead to a decline in sexual function noted by people who initially start progesterone. I noticed slowing of facial hair growth when i took it. On top of this the question arises what happens to androgen receptor expression when in contact with progesterone. Does it increase as DHT decreases? Or does it decrease?
The below articles point to the idea that androgen receptor expression decreases. However, its uncertain as 5 alpha reductase inhibitors like finasteride increases androgen expression.
link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF01613000
jcem.endojournals.org/content/86/6/2668.short
On top of this the role of progesterone as an important hormone in male sexual function comes to play. It is not well studied enough to say whether it is progesterone or its metabolites that are important. My erections certainly improved in some aspects after progesterone.
sciencedirect.com/science/ar … 7305001530
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 … x/abstract
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 … x/abstract
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8961281
Another factor comes to play which is dopamine. Dopamine is becoming more and more important in the realm of sexual function linked with reward and erectile function. We certainly lack a zest for life, have less satisfying orgasms and quite a few of us have raised prolactin levels. Increasing dopamine would be beneficial.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11805404
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10880821
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17164075
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8961281
And there are many links between progesterone (+metabolites) and dopamine!
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12153544
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2375984
With this in mind what then is a suitable treatment?
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Selegiline i think is the first answer.
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Progesterone supplementation is a tricky one as it could potentially make things worse as it reduces DHT. Its action on the androgen receptor is the crucial part i think though. If it affects it negatively it could be bad for us. If it reduces it it could be good and will lead to a sustained bounce back after discontinuing after an initial low. Also progesterones actions on erectile function could be helpful also and its interactions with dopamine is likely to be helpful. One could even argue it is our lack of progesterone metabolites that induced a hypersensitive receptor.
Progesterone will reduce androgen function though in the short term for sure and make you sleepy due to its GABA action.
- Maximising testosterone. Testosterone levels are not the problem. If we were to increase them whilst the androgen receptor is in a normal state it could be beneficial. Increasing them on a hypersensitive receptor is a bad idea. But IF progesterone reduces hypersensitivity it could be beneficial. This guys story leads some credence to this: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7142
I would only recommend increasing it through LH inducing or natural mechanisms.
If you look at what light at the end did - he did all three.
Also have to say be careful of some forms of progesterone cream. Some have saw palmetto and grapeseed extract in which are not helpful. Go with bioveas one for women (not the male one). Use a low dose - about 5mg. Thats my intention.
19- nice work!! I have been screaming from the mountain tops that IMO it is all neurological, that something has happened at the progesterone receptor site. Check out all the studies where they purposefully use finasteride to destroy/abolish the protective effects of neurosteroids.
Check out this study:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3274763/
"Moreover, endogenous 5α-reduced metabolites of progesterone provide resistance to brain damage, as neuron death in the hippocampus resulting from hypoxia is markedly increased after infusion of the 5α-reductase inhibitor finasteride (Yawno et al., 2007)"Agreed. I’m going to give it a shot at some point. I think that’s a very important part of this protocal. Perhaps the MOST important.
It seems like selegeline is, but again are dopamine levels low because of another triggering event…in other words what is the exact root cause?
Interesting to note that increasing testosterone can lead to a negative effect on allopregnanolone.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3100179/
Perhaps the worsening and crashes people experience are related to not the influx of androgens on a hypersensitive androgen receptor as previously postulated but due to the negative downregulation of neurosteroid production associated with the increased level of androgens.
My vision for example got significantly worse on androgen increasing products.
So by increasing androgens we reduce progesterone metabolites and by increasing progesterone we reduce androgen metabolites including the conversion of testosterone to DHT.
Lets say we need to increase both. It’s a tricky business!
Did I miss a study? Why do you think dopamine is low post-finasteride? Are you suggesting less neurotransmitter is being released or there is a lack of response?
To my knowledge, Finasteride seems to increase dopamine release by blocking postsynaptic receptors. Thus overall Finasteride is a dopamine antagonist. This fits in with research showing Finasterides efficacy in alleviating addictive behaviors thought to stem from dopamine overactivity. But whether or not dopamine remains low after finasteride, I think, remains an open question.
If Finasteride acts like other dopamine antagonists, e.g. haloperidol, upon discontinuation the dopamine response would be too strong. Any thoughts?
Its unclear in truth.
One side of the story says that by having reduced neurosteroids we have reduced dopamine:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12153544
Another side says that finasteride reduces neurosteroids and therefore potentiates dopamine release (in a sort of coping strategy).
books.google.co.uk/books?id=00Jb … ne&f=false
Interesting to note also that morphine increases 5AR expression and increases overall 5 alpha reductase activity in the brain!
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16143488
Other drugs (not saying its a good idea) increase neurosteroids too : ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15619118
However, morphine reduces GnRH secretion:
molecularpain.com/content/6/1/69
On a side note as i was worried about having gynaecomastia I took 2 days of tamoxifen. Bad idea! Got worse in all departments. Sure i’ll bounce back. Shame it has a long half life.
Hi Guys,
Just thought i’d drop in for a quick update.
In March my beautiful baby boy was born- he is extremely healthy, strong and well developed- couldn’t be happier in this regard 
Issues with the mother however did induce a rather chronic stress attack which resulted in what i believe to be a relapse in PFS symptoms. Fight or Flight response was pretty much constant and heavy consistently- it obviously took its toll. I pretty much reverted back to depression, no energy, no libido, brain fog, weakness ETC ETC.
I recall some time ago that i did some research into a novel method for relieving anxiety and stress without resorting to acute drugs (which i try and avoid). Now, i understand that this is all very likely just the effect of stress- and i’m WELL aware of its various and somewhat crippling side effects- but please bear with me.
Decided against progesterone for no reason other than the sense of exploration- trying something new.
Not sure if your all aware but the function of FAAH- which is fatty acid amide hyrdrolase, but it is essentially thought to be responsible for the metabolism of anandamide- which is by definition an endocannabinoid- similar in its effects as THC. Now, anandamide has been associated in the past with increasing allopregnanolone- as well as exhibiting its own anxiolytic effects. I remember researching this some time ago- as it was related to potentially alleviating stress in my course in psychopharmacology. (There are a number of up-coming drugs pharma companys are pursuing to capitalize on this).
Long story short- a natural inhibitor of FAAH is Biochanin A, found in decent quantities in legumes and red clover extract- both of which i started ingesting two days after my panic attack. (Chick peas were my chosen legume btw- and red clover extract)
Now-a natural recovery from a stress episode is VERY VERY likely – I willing concede this. However, i did anecdotally ‘feel’ ALOT better quite quickly after a couple of weeks whist trialing this interesting approach. Given its scientific backing revolving around what we here wish to achieve (increasing neuro-steriods etc)- i thought i should share just in case it helps at all or spawns an new approaches towards remedying PFS.
Btw i’m almost completely fine again- thank freken christ.
Once again everything I have state here is IMO- this might be my being completely far fetched and jumping the gun, but it does seem relevant and thus should be mentioned. (Apologies if it has been mentioned before). Please do your own research in terms of finding supporting studies (which are pretty vast btw if you simply use Google – I believe the list of beneficial effects of biochanin A are pretty impressive, coinciding with those from THC) , as I believe doing it yourself reinforces your resolve.
But here’s one to get your started.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2882713/
All the best guys.
Wait, so, do you have PFS again now or are you recovered again?
LOL cap-
sorry if that seemed ambiguous…
yeah i’m fine again mate- all systems normal. Though i’m pretty sure that cronic and acute stress can be marked off as something which can DEVESTATE anyone if you don’t get it under control asap… common knowledge i know.
Ah, ok. Well glad to hear you’re doing well. Congratulations on the kid! I used to always think I’d make a great dad, but who knows about all that now. Hope to be where you are one day if I make it. Enjoy every minute of it, man.
since quitting the progesterone cream around two months ago i now have more sides than before starting it,i have the worst anxiety and depression of my life by far,also my balls have been hurting constantly,pain in my pc muscle area also???,im absolutely tired out all of the time now,i feel back to my crash days six years ago,after feeling great for the first two weeks on it i went down hill from there,i have well and truly fucked myself up with it,what a mistake,imo the stuff is poison,anyone else having negative affects from it???
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So you’re thinking if someone is going to start taking testosterone, they NEED Progesterone at the same time? I’m asking because my Endo/Naturopath has been offering this to me for a while but I have been reserved to taking it. She says that the Progesterone will block any of the T converting to E.
Same exact thing happened to me. Definitely made everything worse. Felt a little bit better in the beginning but then went back and when came off completely everything got worse, especially the anxiety. Definitely a mistake.
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How many have tried the selegeline with or without progesterone?
I’m on seligiline and progesterone. Shame to hear people’s negative reactions. I suspect it’s secondary to the fact progesterone supplementation leads to decreased LH pulse frequency and amplitude and due to the decrease in DHT. So it reduces androgens big time and eventually decreases estrogen conversion via aromatase too.
The more I’ve read the more it seems the useful effects of progesterone need adequate amounts of estradiol to function.
Seligiline attempts to ameliorate some of the symptoms by increasing LH secretion and reducing prolactin secretion. It can however not help increase testosterone levels as it inhibits the responsiveness of LH at leydig cells due to lower prolactin levels. If prolactin is raised by progesterone a careful balance could theoretically form.
So it’s a very tricky situation. You could potentially mess things up with this.
I’m only going to allow short courses of progesterone treatment as worry about long term LH suppression. Will let you know how I get on.