Thanks for the link Pete
I’ve been using collagen (gelatin) as a source of amino acids to try to resolve skin problems, digestion problems, and autoimmune problems.
I think the autoimmune problems may have a connection to skin problem, joint pain, anxiety, insomnia, depression, fatigue, brain fog, de-realization (and schizophrenia). People with leaky guts end up with autoimmune problems and have similar symptoms. Collagen, in the form of gelatin or collagen peptides, fixes leaky guts.
axolotl pointed out in another thread that many pfs sufferers have their androgen receptors working twice as much as they should. Those receptors playing a great part in regulating the immune system, he thought there may be a link as to why many of us suddenly end up being intolerant to food we used to tolerate.
I have a theory (it’s just my opinion) that having our androgen receptors inhibited by fin for so long forced them to work twice as hard to achieve the same result. And when we stopped taking fin and they were not inhibited anymore, I have this theory that they may have ended up working twice as hard as they should, causing all kinds of problem including an overreacting immune system causing new food allergies and the mental, digestive and joints symptoms that come with it.
BrongFogBoy pointed out in a thread some time ago, the possible relationship between the post fin hormonal crash and its impact on the guts and the guts flora. The guts having 97% of the serotonin contained in our body (yes I know. Look it up, I also didn’t believe it) and having the most neurons after the brain, it seems trying out something that would fix the guts would make sense.
Now I understand that if the problem is with the androgen receptors, fixing the guts won’t fix the androgen receptors. However, if someone already had leaky guts before pfs, than it may only became worst after pfs. In that case fixing the guts may lower the autoimmune response.
So with the help of Greek, we started a new thread on the use of collagen where I will keep you posted on what I tried and my results. My goal is simple: eating pizza in two weeks without crashing (ha ha ha ! I love pizza but can’t eat it anymore). If I succeed in doing that, it could possibly indicate that in my case, part of my neurological and physical symptoms were due to an autoimmune response caused by pfs.
Here’s the link to it: The use of Collagen
Thank you Greek and axolotl for your help.
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I just received my amino acids from the US.
Considering I’m doing an experiment on collagen and In an attempt to minimize the variables, I will restrain from using them until the collagen experiment has been concluded.
I will stick as much as possible to what I was doing before the experiment began so that, to the extend that I can control it, the only variable is the addition of collagen.
So I will resume experimenting with aminos (other than those contained in collagen) as soon as that is done.
My next target will be trying to weaken the androgen receptors by giving them less work, like a muscle gets weaker from not exercising. At the same time and because I think they are correlated, I will direct my efforts toward the sexual symptoms by addressing the levels of nitric acid and hydrogen sulfate (which incidentally have an effect on depression, anxiety and insomnia) as well as looking at what can be done to stimulate the GABA (A) and dopamine receptors. (And it’s going to keep me busy while the real scientists are looking for a cure. Ha ha !)
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@Ozeph @Pete1989 I’ve been busy for the last few weeks and haven’t been on here much. So get this, I’ve increased my AA consumption and added several different things. I bought a bottle of capsules that have 15 non-essential acids in it. I figured this would help even more. Boy was I wrong. My symptoms started coming back. I thought that the effects was just wearing off and I was heading back to pfs hell again. Refractory period was not resetting for like 24 to 48 hrs. Gyno started getting sensitive again. Put me in kind of a depression. So my wife asked me what I was doing different and I told her. She said, “Well, just go back to what you were doing to start with.” So, I cut everything out except Arginine, Citrulline, BCAA’s, and Tyrosine and everything started working again. Refrac is back to an hour, gyno has started reversing again. I don’t even know how to explain this one. I’m confused.
Can you link me to the bottle of 15 non-essentials you consumed?
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I think you overreached just as I did yesterday (I kinda had a little crash yesterday)
(see my latest post on The use of Collagen)
On that thread I also posted:
Quote: "That reminds me when I was drinking alcohol. I would get to a point where I was euphoric and was having fun, so then I would drink more, thinking what I was doing was making me feel better until it didn’t anymore and I would end up sick.
What if the mistake is to go on talking a supplement past the point where it has been beneficial ?
If I felt good today, maybe it means I should now stop so that I don’t overreach it and get off the other side."
I think your wife’s response is the solution: Go back to what you were doing before.
I used 3g L-Citrulline, 3g L-Arginine AKG, and 7g of the BCAAs daily for a little over a month because it seemed low-risk and because I had a previous “upswing” in symptoms while taking NO-Xplode, which contains L-Citrulline and L-Arginine AKG.
I didn’t notice any effect.
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I don’t want to jynx anything, but I’m having good success with my regimen the way it is for 3 weeks now. Sexual function and sleep are dialed in very well. If anyone wants the details feel free to PM me. Have a great thanksgiving.
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Hi Pete. I think it’s of interest to everyone. Would you mind posting it on this thread ?
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I’m feeling pretty good as well. of all my symptoms, only 3 remains:
Insomnia: I have to take pills to sleep and even with the drugs I don’t always get a good enough quality of sleep to be ok the next day.
Genital desensitization: I can still feels things down there but I have to concentrate to stay connected and it’s hard to have orgasms.
My balls still hurt although the pain is not intense. They’ve been hurting since I crashed. It feels like I’ve been kicked in the balls 20 minutes ago and i’m still feeling residual pain.
Here’s what I do (and I do it religiously, to the letter. I even set alarms on my phone to be on time for each event)
It’s 3 things: Diet, supplements, and exercise.
6:30am: Wake up, bring children to school.
7:30am: Have the following on an empty stomach: 600 mcg of biotin as well as 25mg of each of the B vitamin complex (total 250mg)
7:30am Have a coffee with a little milk, some 35% cream and 3 tabs of Equal (I seem to tolerate it)
I drink coffee because it stimulate testosterone and progesterone, and shake away the drowsiness from the sleeping pills. Progesterone is a precursor to allopregnanolone (if I manage to produce some 5α-Reductase)
8am-10am: I have around 35 gr of chocolate whey protein isolate shake and a duck egg with water (0.5 gr of carbs) and 2 tbsp of coconut oil.
11:30am: I have 200 gr of ribeye steak as well as 200 gr of steamed spinach, kale or bok choy. Sometime I’ll eat previously infused Jiaogulan leaf left overs or some raw cabbage. I drink a lot of Jiaogulan cold tea during lunch and throughout daytime, about 1 liter a day.
After lunch, I take the following supplements: Vitamin D3 10000ui, Vitamin D2 1000ui, some multi vitamin for men (they have selenium and no iron) and zinc gluconate 50mg.
During the after noon, I will take 6oz of electrolyte mix, along with 2oz of sparkling water.
My electrolyte mix is 6gr of magnesium chloride, 6gr of potassium chloride, and 3gr of sodium bicarbonate. I put all that in a 1.5 liter bottle with 150ml of lemon juice and fill the bottle with water. I add 30 drops each of both natural lemon extract and orange extract for flavor. It lasts me around 8 days.
5pm: Dinner. Sometimes something light like a gaspacho (low carbs Spanish soup) on which I put a generous portion of marinated feta cheese in olive oil (and lots of oil) or a low carb vegetable soup with some cheddar cheese. If I feel the need, I would have another rib eye steak with veggies instead but never past 6pm. If I eat late, I eat light. I may eat raw celery or romaine lettuce as well.
I have a tendency to take at least 1 tbsp of coconut oil each time I eat red meat. Lauric acid, which makes up 50% of coconut oil, prevents colon cancer (which red meat promotes)
7pm : If I didn’t take it before, I have 2 tbsp of coconut oil. (cold pressed, extra virgin. Especially not cooking oil, which gives me nausea, or regular virgin which is also hard on the stomach)
8pm: 30gr of whey protein isolate shake (with water), this time plain or vanilla.
9pm: about 50mg of magnesium chloride and sometimes 5gr of 99% dark chocolate (t helps me sleep)
9:10pm I take my sleeping pill and antidepressant: 2.5mg of clonazepam and 25mg of Agomelatine
9:30pm I go to sleep.
Every three days, I do weight lifting, cardio vascular exercise or I go swimming. Exercise is important to me.
I will soon taper off the antidepressant ( Agomelatine). It’s a non addictive medicine that acts like a ssri but does not have withdrawal symptom. It acts on the melatonin receptors as well and is supposed to help regulate sleep. Nonetheless, the sooner I manage to quit the drugs, the better.
As a result of all this, I’m free of all mental symptoms except a little insomnia around 4am, which seem to become less intense and those 3 things I wrote at the beginning.
Anxiety, depression, panic attack, brain fog, inability to solve not so complicated problems, extreme fatigue, speech slur, headache, gastric reflux, inability to stand up or climb the stairs, lack of coordination, lack of balance: all gone.
Thanks to this regimen, I can pretty much work and function like a normal healthy guy (although this regimen is quite a thing to keep up. It’s anything but normal. But as long as it works, I’m Ok with it.)
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I wanted to try pine pollen see if it did anything to help things but after reading one or two reviews from bodybuilders I’m unsure as to bother.
Vega Plant Based Protein Powder 1 cup daily as instructed.
Amazon.com: Vega Sport Protein Powder Mocha (19 Servings, 1.78 lb) - Plant-Based Vegan Protein Powder, BCAAs, Amino Acid, tart cherry, Non Dairy, Gluten Free, Non GMO (Packaging May Vary): Health & Personal Care
Nutricost L-Carnitine Tartrate .5 - 1 gram daily
Amazon.com: Nutricost L-Carnitine Tartrate Powder (250 Grams) - 1 Gram per Serving, 250 Servings: Health & Personal Care
L- Carnitine is the subject of many studies due to the fact that it is believed to be important in the production of energy and the oxidation of fatty acids.
Read this article to learn more about how it works: https://www.themodernmanmarket.com/home/2016/8/30/l-carnitine-l-tartrate-your-androgen-receptors-love-this-supplement
USDA Organic Pure Pine Pollen - 1 scoop every other day
Amazon.com: USDA Organic Pure Pine Pollen Powder, 6 Ounce, Powerfully Improves Prostate Health, Protects The Cardiovascular System and Provides Immune Support. Non-GMO and Vegan Friendly: Health & Personal Care
NOW Sports L-Arginine & Ornithine 1 gram daily this helps with Nitric Oxide production which is essential for producing solid erections. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0013OVZXS?ref=yo_pop_ma_swf
On the weekend I don’t consume any of the above, I take a Essential amino multivitamin instead. Those are basically the four go to’s, but I make sure to maintain a healthy balance and not over consume any aminos.
In addition I take Rainbow multivitamin for men, fish oil, vitamin E, and Zinc. Ive been taking Zinc for 2 years with no issues, don’t really want to debate over it - but if anyone wants to know the combined dosage of Zinc intake in this regimen is 16mg daily (11 in the rainbow multi and 5 separately).
Lastly, exercise is key. I work out 5 days a week lifting heavy usually 3 out of 5 days, the other 2 days i’ll do low weight high rep and cardio for 30 minutes. Cardio is know to raise estrogen, however it also promotes blood flow. So if your hesitant on doing cardio, substituting with high interval training, sprints, or a stairmaster will also be beneficial.
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What symptoms improved with this regimen ?
You could take it with DMSO as the guy suggest.
Altered life has done a great job highlighting what’s helped him, has anyone experienced equal recovery to him using this method ? Thanks guys
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That would help clear my liver with all the fat I’m eating. However, it also makes the androgen receptors (AR) more sensitive (more dense) according to the article.
pfs sufferer have their AR work twice as much as normal people . I believe this is a result of having been inhibited for so long by fin, making them work harder for the same results, and then the inhibition stopped and they work too hard causing all kind of problems system wide. People have been trying AR inhibitors with often catastrophic results. I would say taking something that can boost your AR further more should be done with extreme caution, at low doses first, and should be stopped at first sign of trouble.
That being said, I’m going to try it with caution.
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I agree to an extent with this sentiment, I believe at the AR is overexpressed until a system wide shutdown occurs which may explain why people experience a crash, high estro manifesting in gyco, etc. Cartinine allows for better utilization of new T (whether it be training induced or through various sources) via NEW AR production (see studies below). Another indicator that ex-fin users experience depleted AR as opposed to over expressed AR is that the symptoms commonly we commonly discuss are associated with low AR. A study surrounding androgen deprivation therapy for prostate cancer patients and it’s effects on males sited ED, muscle wastage and loss in muscle function, compromised metabolic function, bone mass resulting in obese frailty as first hand side effects. I don’t buy that our AR is permanently over expressed, because if that’s the case your Free-T would be extremely low and DHT would be high which isn’t what we’ve seen on blood panels posted on this forum.
Another thing to note is that the form of Cartinine I take (l-cartinine tartrate) is metobilized in the muscle, not blood-brain barrier. So unless you are actively stimulating new T development through working out, this probably won’t work for you.
I don’t like throwing around the word “recovery”, but I am symptom free at the moment
I would be using it to oxidize fatty acid and clean up my liver. The AR are all over the body though. Not just in the brain. And if if it helps sorting out the AR, it’s worth a shot.
I’ll use caution and start slowly.
I agree and Congratulation ! I’m almost there too.
But to be cured would mean not having to use any diet or supplement and eat and do whatever we want like we did before taking fin.
Anyway. I’ll take symptom free. That’s excellent.
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