Pretty much, yes - but i have been here before a number of times. Let’s keep this thread on topic please. I will send you a PM.
I wasn’t talking about you in particular, but it is VERY frustrating when you find something that helps several people and everyone keeps shooting it to pieces. I also can’t for the life of me understand why people are so reluctant to try new things.
Good luck with your PFS docs. I have spent over ten grand on those doctors and got absolutely nowhere.
Milk thistle helps with RT3, maybe that’s why people are feeling better.
stopthethyroidmadness.com/2011/12/10/why-iron-is-so-important-milk-thistle/
I am the last person around here that is against trying new things or getting cured. As many of you know, I have tried many things myself in the past and have devoted a substantial part of my life in the past 4+ years to advancing our cause from a scientific as opposed to a purely empiric point of view. The input from people trying things (with success or not), is essential to better understanding this problem. In order to avoid confusion, let me summarize again what I was stating:
- The research project we that we have completed with the genital skin has given us significant evidence about what this PFS problem is all about. From what we know, and without getting into details, it makes lots of sense that substances which reduce androgenic action can help us feel better.
- Based on scientific research, we know that the MT compounds silymarin and silibinin reduce androgenic action. Given the above, it makes sense that MT compounds can alleviate symtoms.
- However, it is also pretty clear that it is not primarly the inhibition of 5AR but rather the lack of activation of the AR (and transcriptional machinery) that somehow leads to this problem. As such, a substances like silymarin and silibinin, which reduce AR action, pose a potential risk of aggravating our condition.
What we currently strictly know nothing about (as opposed to what we think might be going ob), is what the exact mechanism of persistency of the PFS problem is.
- It can theoretically be, that reducing androgenic action to the right degree can help us break out of this.
- It can just as well be, that doing so re-triggers what fin did to us and eventually makes us worse.
The fact is, we simply don’t know. Now let’s look at the evidence regarding MT here in the forum:
Currently, I seem to be the only one around in this place who has gotten seriously hurt by consuming milk thistle: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5454. Some have taken it, and have not felt much effect. A few are consuming it since months and reporting success. Go figure. Of course, one could claim that Maximum Milk thistle is something completely different, void of any damaging components. Maybe so, who knows. To me, that argument doesn’t make much sense though.
In the bottom line, all I was saying is that there is a potential risk involved in taking MT based substances. I am not trying to tell anybody what to do or not to do. It just seemed important to me that the people who are trying this are informed about what they are doing.
If you are going down this route, my advice would just be to track how you progressing. If you feel that you are continually doing better, like some seem to be, then it may make sense to keep going. On the other hand, if you feel that your symptoms are getting worse, I wouldn’t look too far for alternative explanations. Then it is probably MT which is causing you problems.
From my side, I would just like to leave it at that for the moment. I will continue to follow this thread attentively, because I think whatever comes out of it will be very significant either way. In the mean time, I wish everybody good recovery on their chosen route.
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Guys - one thing I have noticed is that most folks systems are very fragile and sensitive. Folks who have recovered at least partially through time have taken to good diets - raw food, paleo, etc. and slowly their bodies have healed. I think fin fucked our livers to some extent - why else would so many have bad reactions to alcohol, certain foods, etc. Even the fact that our bodies have hormonal imbalnaces (too much E, too much SHBG) again points to liver functioning porrly in ridding the body of excess hormones.
So two things with this product:
- it seems to help the liver heal itself. Milk thistle is used for poisoning cases, cirohsis, etc.
- This seems to be very alkaline.
It may be our pH is also off kilter - we show many of thesigns of being too acidic. Diets like paleo/raw food correct that, so do things like acai berry, etc. Peraps this also helps to rebalance our pH.
I am still waiting for my bottle so I have no idea if it will help/hurt but this is one theory that could explainw hy it improves at least some of condition…
I seem to have a bad reaction to acetaminophen which is harmful to the liver. I advise everyone to avoid it if possible.
I have one question if you don’t mind answering.
Why are [EDIT TYPO] other 5-alpha-reductase inhibitors commonly prescribed to PFS sufferers, inhibitors such as zinc or d3?
Sorry, I don’t understand your question. Could you restate please?
Zinc inhibits 5-alpha reductase activity.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3207614
PFS doctors prescibe zinc to their patients, PFS suffereres tell fellow PFS sufferers to take zinc.
Do you agree that PFS sufferers should supplement with zinc consdering it inhibits 5 AR activity?
In my experience I was initially fluctuating a great deal on MMT, feeling really great to crashing, back to great, to crashing. However, something inside of me said that I should keep taking it. This far I am VERY happy I did. My fluctuations evened out and I am now stable and feel a million times better than in April.
All of my symptoms can be traced to a poorly functioning liver. Maybe, just maybe, the positive results I have on MMT are a result of it aiding my liver and helping with detoxing it via significantly increasing the most potent antioxidant in our bodies, namely glutathione. Maybe, just maybe, this is true since MT is the most potent liver herb known to man.
I am nowhere near cured sexually but in all other areas I am very close to recovered. I normally feel 80% these days. Sometimes 100%.
Another day where I feel absolutely fantastic. Life is good. I went for a walk today and I was thinking about how for the first time in ages I feel truly happy. I never thought I would feel like this again. I’m going to place another order for MMT today
This basically boils down to the same question if taking MT is a good idea or not. It may well be that reducing transcription of AR responsive genes within certain bounds can be helpful in resolving this problem. If I look back at my own personal experience, the thing that probably helped me most was to reduce my TRT dosage compared to what I was taking pre-fin. This was my own way to reduce androgenic action. In that sense, maybe Zinc is helpful to some like MT seems to be helpful to some. In my case, Zinc was not helpful and made me feel worse.
We will only know for sure what really works or harms long term once people taking these substances can provide us with their long term experience.
[Size=4]Silibinin attenuates antigen-specific IgE production through the modulation of Th1/Th2 balance in ovalbumin-sensitized BALB/c mice.[/size]
Kuo FH, Jan TR.
SourceDepartment and Graduate Institute of Veterinary Medicine, National Taiwan University, No. 1, Sec. 4, Roosevelt Road, Taipei 10617, Taiwan, ROC.
Abstract
The effect of silibinin on antigen-specific antibody production and T-cell cytokine expression was investigated. BALB/c mice were either left untreated or administered daily with vehicle (VH; saline) and/or silibinin (200 or 400 mg/kg) by gavage for 3 consecutive days prior to sensitization with ovalbumin (OVA). The antibody production in the serum and T-cell-derived cytokine expression by splenocytes were determined 7 days post OVA sensitization. Our results demonstrated that the production of OVA-specific serum IgE and total IgE was significantly attenuated by silibinin treatment, whereas OVA-specific IgG(2a) was markedly enhanced. In parallel with the differential modulation of the production of IgG(2a) and IgE, treatment of OVA-sensitized mice with silibinin markedly increased and decreased the production of IFN-gamma and IL-4, respectively, by splenocytes cultured in the presence of OVA. Together, these results suggest that silibinin treatment polarizes the Th1/Th2 immune balance toward the Th1-dominant direction, which may be beneficial against IgE-mediated allergy.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18771904
[Size=4]Inhibition of atopic dermatitis by topical application of silymarin in NC/Nga mice.
[/size]Kang JS, Yoon WK, Han MH, Lee H, Lee CW, Lee KH, Han SB, Lee K, Yang KH, Park SK, Kim HM.
SourceBioevaluation Center, KRIBB, Cheongwon, Chungbuk, Republic of Korea.
Abstract
Silymarin has been known to inhibit chemical-induced irritant contact dermatitis. In the present study, we report that topical application of silymarin suppresses dust mite extract (DPE)-induced atopic dermatitis (AD) in NC/Nga mice. Repeated topical application of ears with DPE caused AD-like skin lesions in NC/Nga mice. However, silymarin reduced AD-like skin lesions in these mice, resulting in decreased ear swelling and leukocyte infiltration into the ear. Moreover, our results showed that mast cell infiltration into the ear was suppressed by silymarin treatment in DPE-treated NC/Nga mice. Silymarin also reduced plasma level of IL-4 and IgE in these mice. Further study demonstrated that the mRNA expression of IL-4 was increased and that of IFN-gamma was decreased by DPE treatment in the ears of NC/Nga mice. However, DPE-induced changes in IL-4 and IFN-gamma mRNA expression were reversed by silymarin. DPE-induced increase in TNF-alpha mRNA expression was also suppressed by silymarin treatment. The results presented in this report suggest that silymarin might be beneficial for the treatment of AD.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18593606
This is my understanding of silibinin from wiki:
“Silibinin (INN), also known as silybin, is the major active constituent of silymarin”
I post these studies because the two men that have been tested for immunoglubin e (ige)
have been high out of range. Not a big enough pool to be sure it is consistant for all pfs sufferers but surely a potential reason why some are benifiting from MMT.
Any chance you can summarize that for a dummy like myself? Thanks man.
I am having a really good day again. My face is actually producing oil again. Since my crash, the skin above my eyebrows feels like sand paper and the skin on my nose would peel like I had a sun burn. Now, it is almost back to normal. Well, only time can tell.
Oscar – Immunoglobulin E (IgE) 691 kU/L (0-120)
Amsch test 1 – IgE: 149,70 lU/ml (0,00 - 100,00)
Amsch test 2 – IgE: 132,60 IU/ml (0,00-100,00)
Good find, Tim. 
I swear I didnt want to post in this forum anymore, but you guys are killing me with this…
Dont obsess about the brand “Maximum Milk Thistle” or “Ultrathistle”, what you guys are looking for is SILIPHOS ™. So dont worry if you cannot get MMT easily, many other brands do siliphos (MMT is nothing more than Siliphos ™, and yes, Siliphos ™ is Siliphos is Siliphos - Silibyn phytosome - 1 part silybin extract, 2 parts phosphatodilcholine). Among other brands, Thorne research does it (you can find it at Iherb), so does Swanson, and enzymatic therapy has their own version of silybin phytosome formula that should be equivalent.
You can get the Thorne and Enzymatic therapy products at Iherb and other health stores, the Swanson product on the Swanson website or amazon and others health stores (amazon.co.uk also carries it but at a much higher price).
The most cost effective are, in order, first Swanson siliphos (US price), then Ultrathistle, then MMT, then Enzymatic therapy (but isnt exactly siliphos), then Thorne research Siliphos (expensive per mg).
Also there is a LOT of research on PubMed with “Siliphos”
You’re welcome
Great find there Tim.
Venceremos, can you post up some links? i might get some of this ordered now. There is nowhere to get the maximum milk thistle in the UK now.
What more do you need? You can order the swanson product from the UK at amazon.co.uk, or from the US at swansonvitamins.com, same price but in USD instead of GBP - much cheaper - but beware of shipping charges, or order the thorne product from Iherb (only 4USD shipping fees, and please use the code BIC107 for 5% discount on your first order). Just look for SILIPHOS.
Of course the dosage of siliphos per pill varies depending on the product, but you just have to change the number of pills you’re taking.
Again, all Siliphos product contain the same Siliphos which is a trademarked compound that is only manufactured by Indena which holds the patent phytosomes.info/public/siliphos.asp
Something along the lines of :
A allergy to Dht
Or Antibodies (by the looks ige) against t, dht, 5ar2 or the AR