I apologize if my sarcastic tone bothered you but i believe that i put a good point forward. We cannot just sit back and ignore things that help numerous members on this forum because research into PFS is underway. The chance of researchers giving us the answer and a cure to PFS are very slim - i do not care what anyone says. I personally do not think it will ever happen, let alone in our lifetime. That is not to say that i don’t think we should be investigating PFS in a lab. I am very happy that researchers are looking into it and Awor deserves a medal for the work he has put into it all.
Now, can somebody clarify whether milk thistle is indeed a 5 AR inhibitor? i can’t find anything about it on the internet. I am sure that i have seen Awor mention that it is. It is of great interest to me because as many of you know, i am using Avodart and i am currently as horny as a dog.
The right question to ask is if “SILYBIN” is a 5 ar inhibitor. Milk Thistle has many flavonolignans. Maximum Milk Thistle only contains the flavonolignan“silybin”.
Effects of silymarin flavonolignans and synthetic silybin derivatives on estrogen and aryl hydrocarbon receptor activation
Martina Plíškováa, Jan Vondráčeka, b, Vladimír Křenc, Radek Gažákc, Petr Sedmerac, Daniela Walterovád, Jitka Psotovád, Vilím Šimánekd, Miroslav Machalaa, ,
Purchase
a Veterinary Research Institute, Brno, Czech Republic
b Institute of Biophysics, Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic, Brno, Czech Republic
c Institute of Microbiology, Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic, Prague, Czech Republic
d Institute of Medical Chemistry and Biochemistry, Palacký University, Olomouc, Czech Republic
Received 2 June 2005; revised 13 June 2005; Accepted 23 June 2005. Available online 1 August 2005.
Abstract
Silymarin, a standardized mixture of flavonolignans, or its major constituents could be effective for prevention and treatment of hepatic damage or skin cancer. However, their potential side effects, such as modulation of endocrine functions via the disruption of estrogen receptor (ER) and/or aryl hydrocarbon receptor (AhR) activation, are largely unknown. In the present study, we investigated impact of silymarin, its constituents and a series of their synthetic derivatives on ER- and AhR-mediated activities using in vitro reporter gene assays. We found that none of the compounds under study affected the AhR-mediated activity in rat hepatoma cells. Contrary to that, several compounds behaved as either partial or full ER agonists. Silymarin elicited partial ER activation, with silybin B being probably responsible for a majority of the weak ER-mediated activity of silymarin; silybin A and other flavonolignans were found to be inactive and potent ER agonist taxifolin is only a minor constituent of silymarin. To our knowledge, this is probably the first time, when receptor-specific in vitro effects of separated diastereomers have been demonstrated. In contrast to silymarin constituents, the synthetic silybin derivatives, potentially useful as chemoprotective agents, did not modulate the ER-mediated activity, with exception of 23-O-pivaloylsilybin. Interestingly, 7-O-benzylsilybin potentiated ER-mediated activity of 17β-estradiol despite possessing no estrogenic activity. In conclusion, our data suggest that estrogenicity of some silymarin constituents should be taken in account as their potential side effect when considered as chemopreventive compounds. These results also stress the need to study biological activities of purified or synthesized diastereomers of silybin derivatives.
Type I is a guy who is sick as a dog and does nothing about it and just waits for some kind of miracle.
Type II is out there trying everything possible to find something that works while Type I sits there bitching and moaning about how shitty his life is
I’m in the latter catagory. I’m not sitting on my ass waiting for western medicine to fix this. All that research that is taking place is great but I CAN’T sit here doing nothing while my life goes down the drain.
you never know. Many claim vit D3 being 5 AR inhibitor. Many on this forum say they felt bad after taking vit D3, but I have been on it for the last 2 years and I can say for sure it helped me 100%.
I’m sorry to have to say this but I’m really surprised either of you are still allowed to post here as you contribute nothing but complete nonsense time and again. I don’t “sit and bitch”. I’ve interviewed with several publications and I’ve attempted numerous treatments with two of the top PFS docs over the last year and a half. I think Shippen and Jacobs have a of better clue what to try than either of you.
If you guys want to try it go ahead. I’m not saying there isn’t any value to that at all. Certainly makes alot more sense than flying to Kos.
I continue to feel much more normal today. Again, I am NOT cured, but the positive influence is truly uncanny.
I think Awor is about as reliable as anyone you may find on this site, and I would be skeptical based on his warnings alone. However, he tried a different brand, and as Maria has explained multiple times in this thread, this particular brand is simply different (I will not even begin to try and explain this to you myself because I do not understand science etc. to save my own life).In my honest opinion, Awor himself would benefit from this particular product, based on my own experience. All I know is, the last two days (so far) have been the best I have had, without question since this whole nightmare began (and that is what this has been, a bad dream, and true nightmare beyond anything I knew to be humanly possible). Again, I am NOT cured, but I feel better in ALL aspects.
Based on my own experience, I can honestly say, please guys, try this. It is cheap, it seems safe based on its current track record on this forum, albeit a small sample size, and so far, it ACTUALLY works.
NO. NOBODY TRY THIS; IT’S WAY TOO DANGEROUS. GO AND WASTE YOUR MONEY ON SEEING DR SHIPPEN OR DR CRISLER - THAT’S A MUCH BETTER IDEA. LENNON - GET OFF MILK THISTLE NOW.
Shutup Boston332. I never said you bitch or whine. You crashed around the same time as me and your symptoms sound pretty horrific, like mine. I am not trying to have a go at you, i just cannot believe that your telling people not to try something that has now helped 3/3 people.
Myself and Joetz have probably contributed way more to this forum than you. Just because you have money and you can afford to see top doctors who haven’t helped a single person, doesn’t mean your better than us.
Anyway, enough. This place seems so strange when you are feeling good and hearing this sort of shit from posters like you.
WHAT? Don’t tell me they don’t have it in stock anymore. That really frightens me. I bought some there just 3 weeks ago. I am going to their shop next week. I live really close. I can’t imagine that they stopped selling it completely because a few times they have sold out when I was there to refill (i.e. it’s in high demand). I will check next week and ask them how you can get it to Germany.
Have you tried to call the company, Natural Wellness, to see if they ship abroad?
Scroll down to the bottom of this page. The company that produce Maximum Milk Thistle ships from the US to Europe. International shipping is a bit expensive though. shop.naturalwellnessonline.com/customer-service.asp
The question is not if SILYBIN is an 5AR inhibitor; the right question to ask is if the mechanism of action of SILYBIN is capable of causing or worsening PFS. After all, that is what (some of) the people in this thread are worried about.
First of all, it is increasingly clear that any substance which reduces AR activation, be it through the reduction of DHT levels (like 5AR inhibitors), or through other mechanisms (such as SSRI’s), or high dosed estrogens (like Maria took), can cause the same problem - namely the syndrome we currently call “PFS”. Even if you don’t believe this, just assume it to be true for a moment.
Now here is what the components of milk thistle have found to be doing:
From the Maximum Milk Thistle website:
In case you are wondering if “silybin” is the same thing as “silibinin”:
From what we have found in the first round of experiments, it is very pretty clear why substances that REDUCE AR activation can (initially) improve symptoms. The question is for HOW LONG, and if taking such substances can even make you worse in the long term. Wasn’t there some guy that claimed to have felt better after taking finasteride? Or the chap in this thread that is feeling great on Avodart? It’s basically the same story.
Just to be clear: I am not saying that there is no chance that this stuff can make some people actually get better. I can only guarantee you, that it will eventually make some people feel worse. I am one of them. What no once can say in advance is what side of the line you will be on. Just like no one could tell you this about finasteride. If it is worth to take the risk to find out is each ones own personal decision.
First of all, you did not take the same stuff. The fact is that when I took the same stuff that you took, I also felt really bad. Second of all, you cannot “guarantee” anything. Sorry but you just can’t claim that you can “guarantee” that it will make some people worse.
Man, that post is a major bummer. I feel great overall right now. It is unfortunate to think that this could actually make me worse than I was. I am torn now, because I have great respect for what you do.
I have to keep going on this though. It has made a huge positive difference that nothing else could. Wish me luck, and I can only hope I am not making a huge mistake. We shall see…
“From what we have found in the first round of experiments, it is very pretty clear why substances that REDUCE AR activation can (initially) improve symptoms. The question is for HOW LONG, and if taking such substances can even make you worse in the long term. Wasn’t there some guy that claimed to have felt better after taking finasteride? Or the chap in this thread that is feeling great on Avodart? It’s basically the same story.”
What are these experiments? PFS sufferers have taken 5 AR inhibitors as experiments? how many people?
If there have been experiments on PFS sufferers - why have you not told us about them before?
I am extremely confused and concerned about what you have just said
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. – Buddha
But that makes no sense. How can a piece of skin off someone’s penis show that initially, 5 AR inhibitors make a post finasteride sufferer feel good and then it wears off?
I want a full explanation to this because Awor has written that as if it is some sort of fact or proven in an experiment with PFS sufferers.
Also Lennon, please just carry on with the Milk Thistle. We need as many people as possible trying things that cause our condition to improve.
If the Avodart does not cure me then i will try this too if someone has sustained improvements.
