Low Basal NO/NOx Levels and Proposed Regimen

General Discussion
#113

There are really a few main questions that we are trying to answer in this thread:

  1. Will any of our symptoms go away if we increase basal NO/NOx levels?

  2. Will eating rocket/rucula/arugala, beet root juice, and spinach 200 grams a day be sufficient to raise NO/NOx levels to where you could feel any improvements if the answer to #1 is YES.

  3. Is the methylation protocol necessary in addition to basal NO/NOx levels to feel any kind of improvement?

  4. Is there any other part of our diets or protocols that could be negatively affecting NO/NOx levels?

The results thus far seem mixed. Letā€™s say increasing NO/NOx levels really do help our symptoms. We still wouldnā€™t know if that itself is just a symptom of something else broken in our bodies. Like why would a 5 ar inhibitor permanently destroy our NO/NOx levels?

@Mario, maybe I missed it but are there any studies linking NO/NOx levels to sexual function? I saw one of the studies linked it to autism.

#114

@nate99

Please see my comments inline :

Yes. This is what happened to me. It appears the regimen also helped xptriado, depressedguy,elijah and Jonson.

200 gr seems a good dose although i am not sure how can one test his NO levels. I know that some test strips which show NO levels exist but i havenā€™t tried them yet.

For my situation I would say yes because

a) I have a confirmed MTHFR Mutation
b) I felt much better with Methylation supplements. I am not sure if high doses of Methylcobalamina are needed though.
The question is : Should someone who does not know if he has MTHFR/CBS/VDR,etc Mutations start the Methylation protocol? This probably warrants self experimentation.

Yes. Do not use Mouth wash if you are trying the NO/NOx protocol. Mouthwash will kill the necessary bacteria which reside in your mouth which help the conversion of nitrate to NO/NOx. Also do not take Hydroxocobalamin or any other high dose cobalamins as these lower NO levels (with Hydroxocobalamin being the worst)

I disagree with your point of view because :

a) No one had a negative experience (So far)
b) 5 out of 6 people who tried it (mariovitali,xptriado,Jonson,Depressedguy,elijah) felt significantly better. andyuk did not find any difference. It goes without saying that we need more people to test the protocol for at least 10 days. I am trying to find out how much time it takes to repair mitochondrial function. Then we could be talking about months being on the regimen, not 10 days.

I do not know why a 5ar inhibitor would cause such a thing. I guess this is one question for those who will be researching PFS IF NO/NOx works.

NO/NOx are responsible for so many functions that i am not able to list here. Please go through the links on pubmed i posted in this thread to see why NO/NOx may be the missing key to our problems. To say the least, there can be no erections without NO. I will collect everything i have and post one summarization so you can have this info in one place.

#115

Just to add to this I wonā€™t be starting the methylation cycle for a few more weeks, I donā€™t know if the other 5 (except Mario) are all on methylation supplements.

#116

I was thinking about this today, as I had particularly good sleep last night and woke up with really strong morning breath. Why would the bacteria not be killed by just regular brushing of the teeth? The alcohol present in the mouthwash?

I think Mario you also mentioned that hot water and soap would not be good, what about taking lukewarm to cold showers? Iā€™ve actually been doing this for the last week and I must admit, itā€™s hard to deal with a cold shower but my body does feel invigorated afterwards. Not sure I could keep that up when winter rolls around.

I think we should be very conservative about how we view the results of the people trying it. We could get really excited, but I think itā€™s best to temper expectations. Weā€™ve all had things work out for a few days only to go back to full pfs. If this works, then it will work regardless of whether it is now or a month from now. Iā€™d rather see how these guys are doing 4 weeks from now without changing their regimens in any significant way.

I notice you didnā€™t mention Livingdead who seems to be feeling better, but maybe that is because he is also trying nystatin enemas as you can see in the IHP thread. He is also doing the methylation protocol.

xpatriado - Can you really say he felt significantly better? He said he was getting more wood and night and in the morning BUT he felt that maybe had to do with a recent move. Also, he is doing methylation.

Iā€™m assuming Jonson, depressedguy, and elijah are pmā€™ing you about feeling better.

Jonson - Two days after starting, says he feels better. Methylation protocol?

depressedguy - ? . Methylation protocol?

elijah - ? . Methylation protocol?

andyuk - no results thus far. NOT doing methylation

And donā€™t forget to count yourself: mariovitali - positive results. Methylation protocol.

#117

Guys, i may have felt something positive in regards to wood but i havent given this regimen a good try yet because ive been eating lettuce and in fact i just stopped it after having constipation for a few days in a row.
Im doing nothing for the moment except suffering with insomnia and anxiety and a few sleeping pills who seem to help me fall asleepā€¦but not maintain it

This problem fā€¦ing sucks

Edit: this person tried this too and monitored the results with some strips and blood pressure monitor. He says even the brand of the stripsā€¦ peaktestosterone.com/Boost_Y ā€¦ Oxide.aspx

#118

Any Mouth wash contains some kind of antibacterial agent i believe, which is the problem.

Thatā€™s right, hot water and soap kills AO Bacteria.

Agreed, you will find me using very strict language (see how often i use the word ā€œappearsā€) when talking about the results. More people should try the protocol and for as long as possible and take it from there.

I highly doubt that he got the positive results from moving to another place. Of course, i have no way to prove this, only time will tell.

Yes, but you can also read their posts in this thread

FYI i think that methylation protocol IS NOT the solution. I believe that NO/NOx plays a much more significant role to our problem -i dare to say as much as 90%- although again this is just my speculation.I followed the Methylation protocol for more than 6 months and i had problems. Just 10 days on the NO/NOx and i felt something really changed and this was not a coincidence (my belief). All of us who boosted NO/NOx should be feeling really bad according to the Methylation protocol theory as both Dr Pall and Rich V Konynenburg believe that NO is one of the main culprits.

So letā€™s try to spread the word out and see whether NO/NOx protocol works. There is no other way to know.

#119

Mario, so have you returned from your vacation and reestablished your protocol and are feeling better?

You have not said you are fully recovered yet. Where are you in terms of symptoms and can you elaborate on what aspects you still feel negatively affected by? Like what would it take before you feel you are totally better?

In reading your previous thread about methylation there are many posts on which you say you are feeling better and better. What makes you now look back on it and feel that you had problems those days compared to now? This is just to engage your thought process, not meant to be accusatory.

#120

No i am still on vacations, will be returning back home this Friday.

For as long as i remember myself with PFS, i felt that i was in some sort of a vicious cycle, which i could try to depict as follows :

Crash -> Feeling slightly ok->Feeling more ok->Feeling great->Tinnitus->Crash

As i kept getting older this cycle was keep getting smaller and smaller in terms of the days of the cycle. So aging appeared to have some significance. I tried boosting Testosterone but this did not stop this vicious cycle. As time passed by several neurological side effects also appeared. The cycle kept becoming smaller and smaller and occurences of tinnitus became more frequent (which for me was the beginning of problems (insomnia, depression, impotence,etc).

Only with NO/NOx i felt that this cycle has stopped. Being on the methylation regimen has given me a great boost : I was severely depressed, sleeping 5 hours a day and with severe neurological side effects. Methylation made me 70% better consistently but there would always be occurences of tinnitus. Iā€™ve found out that when i was feeling great i was eating spinach and sausages (i keep a very detailed record of what i eat and how i feel). I still have neurological side effects which i can barely feel now. Weather changes only slightly affect me and i get no tinnitus at all (also elijah discussed this - search for his post here)

I couldnā€™t understand why but i knew that i felt good with spinach and thought that the reason for this was the high Vitamin K2 content. So i stopped eating spinach and took K2 vitamin instead.

I will explain at a later time how i reached the conclusion on NO/NOx being possibly the final piece of the puzzle.

#121

Ok so do I have to eat this stuff raw or cooked? What about you guys, what stuff works for you?

actually, tldr (lol got bored of my own post):

We gotta try lower the price and treshold/work on this protocol, for me the ā‚¬/kg price for all NO-veggies save beetroots and lettuce are pretty high.
Thus:

  1. test out if canned or cooked beetroot does well VS raw
  2. test out lettuce in terms of how much needs to be consumed for similar.

ā€“> mariovitaaaaliiiā€¦ i think mariovitali could be ideal candidate for testing, has the clearest results of us all. but itā€™s up to you man. iā€™m just saying that it could help the cause and encourage others to ā€œmake this workā€/make this experiment part of their protocols.

at least: even if rucola or spinach is a -must-, there could be something to fall back on in a case of an emergency, something that gives enough motivation for everyone to try this.

#122

Nate99 you might remember that this is not a court room and Mario is not on trial nor does he have to answer to anybody here. His posts are a log of what he is doing and we are privileged to see this. Some of your questions should be asked in private. Sometimes thereā€™s a lack of dignity on this board thatā€™s really quite unsettling. Mario once again the gentleman, look forward to your next post.

#123

yeah andyuk, i feel like im pushing with my veggie experiment - suggestion but i just have to do it out of concern. i have to concede that i could had been more sensitive, itā€™s after all his time and dignity in play.

#125

Iā€™m sorry if you feel that my line of questioning was putting him on trial. I thought that was pretty clear by saying ā€œThis is just to engage your thought process, not meant to be accusatory.ā€ that that was not my intention.

Iā€™m asking questions that Iā€™m sure the most critical of users, ones that are especially wary of any talk of protocols, are probably thinking. Mario is very positive in this thread, but there were also posts in the other thread that sounded very positive. A simple question about how this protocol puts the results of the previous one into perspective is not only a fair and valid question but a completely necessary one.

I think the norm around here has been to argue and accuse. I hope youā€™ll be able to see that is not what I am doing.

#126

@Mario, looking forward to hearing how you ended up believing NO/NOx would be the key to your problems.

Beet juice is better than cooked beets? Meaning I can just buy a bunch of beets and juice them? That sounds great and It would be awesome to get some use out of that masticating juicer I got for the CDnuts protocol.

#127

Yes this appears to be true Nate. The problem is that we do not know what is the best way to monitor NO levels and also what this level should be. Since you are based in US, it is very easy for you to order test strips for Nitric Oxide and have them in a couple of days whereas for us in Europe this will take much more time.

For what itā€™s worth i kept data of more than a year on how i felt what i ate and what supplements i used because i knew there were days that i felt great and days that i felt really bad. State-of-the-art Statistical Natural-Language Processing and Machine Learning techniques were used to reach this conclusion. I am not implying that these techniques guarantee that a valid solution will be found but they guarantee that a valid hypothesis can be found.

Regarding you being skeptic on what i say i understand you and your questioning is/was on a logical basis. You have to also walk into my shoes and try to understand that my life was in a real mess a year ago. I had so many problems with my health and had suicidal thoughts. Then comes this protocol (Methylation) which changed so many things on how i felt. Then i realized that by inducing P450 i felt even better. However tinnitus (tinnitus meant problems) would always catch up no matter what i did. But NO/NOx changed this, at least for now.

I am happy that you are willing to try the protocol. Rocket is by far the best in terms of nitrate content. Give it a shot and see how you feel. If you donā€™t feel a thing then increase nitrate content for a week to see if this changes your condition. Please let us know what happened.

Good Luck.

#128

Haha, il mio amicoā€¦ I just realized the same last night while I was in bed, that I could just go with the table you provided and figure out the amounts from it.

Thanks for that link though - seems like weā€™re better off buying regular beet juice from shop than trying to cook/steam them (for nitrate content). Canned beets are probably the worst in terms of nitrate content, theyā€™re probably too processed (cut, steamed, put in juice, etc.).

To clarify: If you can try the lettuce or beets then that would be great, since you get clear tinnitus episodes very quickly and exceptionally clearly if the NO content isnā€™t enough for you. You are to NO-rich foods what CFS people in Phoenix Rising are to methylation supplements: if the methylation supplement isnā€™t working for them (eg. manufacturer changes the fillers in b-vitamin complex pill) then they get worse quickly and clearly.

Iā€™m going to try to get on this now to the best extent I can, though without methylation supplements for now.

#129

Iā€™m going to wait a couple of weeks to see what everyone says before throwing my hat in as well.

Beetroot juice will not be very hard to find/make. Arugula seems to be a bit pricey. It is mostly mixed in with Spinach. I saw at Trader Joes there is organic arugula for $2.50 for about 200 grams. I saw it at Vonā€™s for $5 for about 400 grams. I was hoping I could find a bulk amount so I will check Costco soon. Spinach seems like maybe the cheapest option, but it could potentially be problematic for kidney stones.

#131

@mario: you had tested low for active b12 and b9 wasnā€™t it?
Are u planning to retest?
Did you find a link between nitric oxide depletion and depletion of b9 and b12 active forms?

If we know what came before,the chicken or the egg, we can understand if we should first eat these salads or first replenish these vitaminsā€¦

#132

Iā€™ve never tested for either of these vitamins. Must be someone else

#133

I had my parents fax me the list of high oxalate foods that increase your risk of kidney stones. Turns out beetroots are just as high risk as spinach. Both are categorized as VERY HIGH for oxalate.

So I guess if I do this protocol, I will be trying to use arugula. Is there any opinion about whether it is better to juice the arugula (not eating the pulp leftover) or to eat it straight?

#134

I believe there is no need to juice arugula. I am working on lowering the dose of 200gr of arugula because this might be too much of a dose of nitrates. Probably 100 gr of arugula per day is more than enough but i will have to try to see if i get tinnitus with this amount of dosing.

The good thing is that the incidences of tinnitus, give me the necessary feedback for the correct dose, until i can get on my hands the test strips for NO levels.