Low Basal NO/NOx Levels and Proposed Regimen

[nate99]

Tons of random thoughts and questions here.

@ anyone that can answer: The users trying the NO/NOx protocol, are they all also doing the methylation protocol as well? We need to make sure that whatever data they give, even if it is anecdotal, makes the truth clearer.

@Mario, I can’t tell, how long did you suffer from pfs before things got better?

I would definitely love to try this protocol, but I want to wait and see if the picture clears up a bit first. Also, my diet may include somethings that I didn’t know were DHT inhibitors. In a previous thread, I think you mentioned salmon is one. I didn’t know that. So I wouldn’t want to confuse things more.

I eat at least one to two romaine heads of lettuce per day. I have had improvements over time, but I attributed that to the strict paleo and gluten free diets I was following.

Interesting thing to note: I don’t eat Spinach for my salads. When I do add spinach, I seem to always get involuntary muscle twitches at night. Not sure if that makes sense.

Hopefully there can be a spinach alternative. The males in my family have had kidney stones. I got a look at a list the doctor gave my dad of foods to eat sparingly, and spinach is at the top of that list.

@Mario, does the methylation with NO/NOx theory account for the many temporary recoveries many of us have had? This is one reason I can’t totally buy into the pathogen theory or the auto-immune theory. Assuming we all don’t change anything, why would we suddenly get better for a few weeks every year. One thing that was interesting to me in your previous thread was the issue of barometric pressure change and weather change. Not sure if it is true but it could give some reason as to why, since my PFS crash, I’ve had a decent recovery every year right when or right before spring came and the sun started coming out.

Besides not eating anti-DHT foods, do you feel we should be doing any other dietary changes? Not drinking or eating fried foods or gluten? These things did make me feel better almost immediately.

[xptriado]

Mario I haven’t seen great benefits from Methylation.
I always thought though that the Metafolin was making me slightly more talkative and better mood.
I have finally received the letter to pick up at the post office the following, in efforts to remedy my sleep:

• Bacopa
• Magnesium Malate
• Dibencozide
• relora

Basically I expect that with Relora, I will understand if what helps me from the combination of L_Arginine+L-Lysine is an elevation in NO or a decrease in cortisol, and then hopefully I can take it from there.

I have been eating veggies like crazy, always 200g a day.
I think my nighttime erections are benefiting though I can’t say for sure…as always.

Sleep wise, I can’t say it has solved anything yet.

But I have to emphasize that I’m eating much more lettuce than spinach…

Have you noticed constipation , btw?

I guess if you cut out your methylation support supplements, you’ll understand if it’s the NO increase the culprit for you feeling this good?

Btw, to anyone who’s interested:

From Magnesium Malate I expect higher bioavailability and I hope to target NMDA receptors + support krebs cycle…I think this could be helpful, especially when I read this today:
cienciahoje.pt/index.php?oid=59039&op=all (Very interesting study linking astrocytes, NMDA, depression and neuron death and krebs cycle).

[mariovitali]

UPDATE

I am on holidays on the wonderful island of Santorini. Last year i was here as well and i had to leave from the island because of intense brain fog. This year i think this will not happen. Being on holidays is great but i wasn’t able to keep my regimen. It is not easy to have 65 grams of Spinach/Rocket every 8 hours while you are on holidays. Plus, i left my food scale at home so i am not sure about the amount of rocket i eat. Yesterday i had rocket in the morning but i ran out and wasn’t able to eat at lunch and dinner. Sure enough at around 20:30 i felt a slight spontaneous tinnitus which for me signals a crash and the beginning of another vicious circle.This morning i got up early, with no morning wood and dry skin.. Yesterday, I tried humming in regular intervals instead (knowing that i cannot have spinach/rocket) but as it appears that didn’t help.

@xptriado, nate99
Spinach, Rocket and Beetroot are the highest sources of nitrates. I am not sure how much you should eat if you are eating only lettuce. @nate99 : If spinach is a problem for you switch to rocket or beetroot

@Mario, I can’t tell, how long did you suffer from pfs before things got better?

I suffer from pfs many years (first crash happened in 1999 i think) but i had periods of being well. Last 3 years things became really hard in terms of mental health, insomnia and neurological side effects.

I would definitely love to try this protocol, but I want to wait and see if the picture clears up a bit first. Also, my diet may include somethings that I didn’t know were DHT inhibitors. In a previous thread, I think you mentioned salmon is one. I didn’t know that. So I wouldn’t want to confuse things more.

Salmon contains astaxanthin which is a DHT inhibitor. Other DHT inhibitors (Foods) : Red Peppers (contain Astaxanthin), White button mushrooms

Interesting thing to note: I don’t eat Spinach for my salads. When I do add spinach, I seem to always get involuntary muscle twitches at night. Not sure if that makes sense.

Hopefully there can be a spinach alternative. The males in my family have had kidney stones. I got a look at a list the doctor gave my dad of foods to eat sparingly, and spinach is at the top of that list.

Yes there are alternatives : Rocket (Rukola) and Beetroot. These have the highest amount of nitrates among any other vegetable.

@Mario, does the methylation with NO/NOx theory account for the many temporary recoveries many of us have had? This is one reason I can’t totally buy into the pathogen theory or the auto-immune theory. Assuming we all don’t change anything, why would we suddenly get better for a few weeks every year. One thing that was interesting to me in your previous thread was the issue of barometric pressure change and weather change. Not sure if it is true but it could give some reason as to why, since my PFS crash, I’ve had a decent recovery every year right when or right before spring came and the sun started coming out.

Besides not eating anti-DHT foods, do you feel we should be doing any other dietary changes? Not drinking or eating fried foods or gluten? These things did make me feel better almost immediately.

D3 does help and my theory is that it does so because of NOS (Nitric Oxide Synthase) induction. In Spring and Summer you do not have so many abrupt weather changes as in winter hence we feel better during that period (again just my theory). I see no other need for dietary changes apart from keeping away from DHT inhibitors which can create problems we all know.

Again i am not sure about the methylation regimen. I do remember that it definitely helped me from being depressed (possibly because of SAMe induction) and probably also helped my sleep.

@xptriado you are right, my next step is to stop slowly the methylation supplements i take although i believe that i need Metafolin as i have the MTHFR mutation (homozygous). My belief is that the crash (tinnitus) that happens to me is NMDA overexcitation . Magnesium will definitely help but again, Low levels of NO are certainly a reason of increased NMDA activity and subsequent neuronal death. This is not a theory, this is a fact.

I do not have constipation any more. And i do agree 100% with you that Cortisol has to be in check.

[nate99]

Just my opinion which you obviously don’t have to listen to.

I think you should not change a thing about your protocol if it is making you feel better right now. If you feel fully recovered, don’t change a thing for 4 months to get an official recovery, then start to dial stuff back carefully.

With so much changing stuff around, how can you be sure any gains or losses are based on the new thing you are trying or the after effects of the old thing? We will at least know for you if the methylation protocol + NO/NOx will work. I’m particularly curious if you end up testing as hyperthyroid in a few days. That would really be something interesting.

[nate99]

Don’t know if this study was already seen or even applies:

alcalc.oxfordjournals.org/content/39/2/106.full

“Conclusions: Binge drinking causes a significant increase of serum NOx evident after 12 h with a return after 24 h at pre-drinking levels in healthy controls and patients with chronic viral hepatitis. In cirrhosis, such an increase is not observed serum levels being constantly elevated throughout the study period.”

People always seems to feel a little better the day after drinking a lot.

[mariovitali]

@nate99

Don’t know if this study was already seen or even applies:

alcalc.oxfordjournals.org/content/39/2/106.full

“Conclusions: Binge drinking causes a significant increase of serum NOx evident after 12 h with a return after 24 h at pre-drinking levels in healthy controls and patients with chronic viral hepatitis. In cirrhosis, such an increase is not observed serum levels being constantly elevated throughout the study period.”

People always seems to feel a little better the day after drinking a lot.

Count me in too on this. I always felt better (mainly morning wood) the night after drinking.

@nate99

I think you should not change a thing about your protocol if it is making you feel better right now. If you feel fully recovered, don’t change a thing for 4 months to get an official recovery, then start to dial stuff back carefully.

You are right and this is exactly what i plan to do.

@nate99

With so much changing stuff around, how can you be sure any gains or losses are based on the new thing you are trying or the after effects of the old thing? We will at least know for you if the methylation protocol + NO/NOx will work. I’m particularly curious if you end up testing as hyperthyroid in a few days. That would really be something interesting.

I am certain that it was NO/NOx that changed things with the “vicious cycle” of feeling great and then something happening and starting all over again. I find it extremely unlikely that the Methylation protocol suddenly worked once i started NO/NOx protocol.

Notice also that in my regimen i use Ashwagandha, Magnesium, Selenium,C, ALCAR and CoQ10 although i doubt these are part of the solution as i’ve taken them before. ALCAR and CoQ10 have a synergistic effect in fixing mitochondrial function (which i believe is part of our problem). Magnesium is good for NMDA excitotoxicity. Ashwagandha is used for lowering Cortisol which could also be a problem.

Tomorrow i will have the Thyroid panel results and will post them although i am fairly sure given how i feel (now i do not get tired easily) that i was hyperthyroid. Anyway, we will know very soon.

[Andrew35]

@nate99

Don’t know if this study was already seen or even applies:

alcalc.oxfordjournals.org/content/39/2/106.full

“Conclusions: Binge drinking causes a significant increase of serum NOx evident after 12 h with a return after 24 h at pre-drinking levels in healthy controls and patients with chronic viral hepatitis. In cirrhosis, such an increase is not observed serum levels being constantly elevated throughout the study period.”

People always seems to feel a little better the day after drinking a lot.

I only need to drink 1 bottle of larger to waking up feeling calmer the next day and the anxiety in my chest has gone, although the effect does wear off in the afternoon. I don’t really notice any other changes though.

[mariovitali]

@andyuk

@nate99

Don’t know if this study was already seen or even applies:

alcalc.oxfordjournals.org/content/39/2/106.full

“Conclusions: Binge drinking causes a significant increase of serum NOx evident after 12 h with a return after 24 h at pre-drinking levels in healthy controls and patients with chronic viral hepatitis. In cirrhosis, such an increase is not observed serum levels being constantly elevated throughout the study period.”

People always seems to feel a little better the day after drinking a lot.

I only need to drink 1 bottle of larger to waking up feeling calmer the next day and the anxiety in my chest has gone, although the effect does wear off in the afternoon. I don’t really notice any other changes though.

It is possible that your NO is not raised significantly whereas for someone else, even with a small alcohol intake the increase may be significant.

Have you tried the regimen having Rocket / Spinach / Beetroot every 8 hours?

[Andrew35]

Mario I have started the regime although I haven’t noticed any difference as yet, I think it’s been about a week. So the alcohol raises my NO within 12 hours but the veggies don’t seem to have the same effect so far. Something must be missing.

[mariovitali]

@andyuk

Mario I have started the regime although I haven’t noticed any difference as yet, I think it’s been about a week. So the alcohol raises my NO within 12 hours but the veggies don’t seem to have the same effect so far. Something must be missing.

What kind of veggies? Do you eat mostly rocket (the most potent of all in nitrates) or some other combo? How many grams do you eat every 8 hrs? (Should be around 65gr).

[Andrew35]

@mariovitali

@andyuk

Mario I have started the regime although I haven’t noticed any difference as yet, I think it’s been about a week. So the alcohol raises my NO within 12 hours but the veggies don’t seem to have the same effect so far. Something must be missing.

What kind of veggies? Do you eat mostly rocket (the most potent of all in nitrates) or some other combo? How many grams do you eat every 8 hrs? (Should be around 65gr).

I’m following it to the letter with a combo of rocket and spinach plus I’m eating a large salad once a day and consuming a few extra nitrate veggies with that meal. Either I need to eat more veggies or something is missing from the process that is included when I have a bottle of beer.

[mariovitali]

@andyuk

@mariovitali

@andyuk

Mario I have started the regime although I haven’t noticed any difference as yet, I think it’s been about a week. So the alcohol raises my NO within 12 hours but the veggies don’t seem to have the same effect so far. Something must be missing.

What kind of veggies? Do you eat mostly rocket (the most potent of all in nitrates) or some other combo? How many grams do you eat every 8 hrs? (Should be around 65gr).

I’m following it to the letter with a combo of rocket and spinach plus I’m eating a large salad once a day and consuming a few extra nitrate veggies with that meal. Either I need to eat more veggies or something is missing from the process that is included when I have a bottle of beer.

OK Andy,

Lets wait to hear also from others to tell us how they feel . I will also keep you updated once i have news regarding my latest blood tests for my thyroid (hopefully tomorrow)

[Andrew35]

Thanks Mario, good luck with your blood tests

[mariovitali]

@andyuk

Thanks Mario, good luck with your blood tests

Cheers Mate

[elijah]

Hello guys, I started this protocol right after ending a seven day wast fast, in which I took no supplements whatsoever. I don’t know if this is the result of fasting or else, but in terms of general well-being the results have been great: no ear ringing, increased energy and focus, feeling emotional involvement with others, and better erection quality. I’m so glad of the results that I believe this protocol would have been a great addition even if I didn’t acquire PFS, I wish I knew about this since my teens and early twenties, I would have achieved much more thanks to the increased mental focus. Probably I had low basal NO/NOx even before PFS. Before the fast I used to take Forskolin, Selenium, Zinc, Iodine, DIM, ALCAR, B12, Vit D, Ashwagandha, then during the fast I took nothing for 8 days. Once I broke the fast I started eating right away large bowls of rocket/spinach salad and raw sauerkraut, the only other supplements that I resumed taking are hydroxocobalamin (holisticHealth) and Iodine (Detoxadine), but they never gave me this effect before. Regarding the difference between raising NO/NOx with aminoacids and raising basal NO/NOx, in the past when I wanted a temporary sexual boost I took a few grams of Citrulline Malate + Aginine + Vitamin B6 as P5P, (in the ratio 1g, 2g, 0.1g) they helped a lot for sexual health, but they never gave me a persistent recovery.
One detail: with the 23andMe genetic test + GeneticGenie.org + NutraHacker.com I recently found that I’m both MTHFR and MAO-A homozygous, and COMT heterozygous. I don’t know if other people who do not have the mutation would feel the same benefits, but I would advise to try, there is no downside!
Another detail: I entered the fast with oily and itching scalp, but since the start of the protocol my scalp has been neither oily nor itching. contrary to other’s experience during previous temporary recoveries I experienced very little skin oiliness/hair loss, whereas during mini crashes my scalp itched more.
Honestly, I believe PFS is a very complex condition, with damage to sex hormones receptors (e.g. progesterone), reduced enzymatic activity (e.g. p450) damaged myelination and decreased methylation. It’s unlikely that a single silver bullet remedy exists at all. The body may progressively fix itself after a long time, but that doesn’t happen to everyone: some get stuck at 50% of what they used to be. I don’t want to be among the latter, so that’s why I’m eager to find a solution and try anything that may help.

[Andrew35]

Elijah can I ask what supplements are you taking to address MTHFR and MAO-A homozygous, both are flagged as concerns on my methylation report. I also need to address VDR Taq which relates to Vit D. Thanks.

[mariovitali]

@ elijah

Really glad you are feeling much better! FYI Hydroxocobalamin is a potent NO Scavenger so whatever NO you are raising you might be wasting it through Hydroxocobalamin supplementation. You may get even better results if you stop it - please give it a try if this is not a problem for you and let us know.

@andyuk

Just to give my 2 cents : I have homozygous MTHFR and also the VDR Mutation.

MTHFR : Metafolin, Methylcobalamin, perhaps TMG
VDR : Vitamin D3 supplementation 4000-500 IU/day after checking through blood work your 25 (OH) D Levels.

[Andrew35]

Thanks Mario. Methylcobalamin I’ve taken before and noticed at low levels 500mg per day it increased my anxiety??? I’ve have the other 2 MTHR supplements on order and Vit D I already take, cheers.

[xptriado]

When was.the last time.you checked these values?
Beforr the spinach diet?

[mariovitali]

@xptriado

When was.the last time.you checked these values?
Beforr the spinach diet?

It was 3 months before and i remember that TSH was around 1.45. I started the NO/NOx regimen 18 days ago i think.

From these test results it appears that my thyroid is overworking, ideally TSH should be around 1…but i feel great and so for the time being i will wait to see how my HPA axis reacts.