Obviously i am trying to see your readings to get a better understanding of what the chances are of going on HRT would give me better chances than I already have with my natural levels to end up with a better T/Dht ratio, not have over saturated receptors and in activating damaged/shut off receptors.
I know that you have made it clear that HRT is what’s needed to do all of these things for most of the guys on this website with low levels of hormones. But I have good levels un like 90 percent of the people on this website. So I’d learn a lot by comparing my latest above referenced readings to what your levels are currently on T, hcg and armidex.
Hey 5 alpha, hope you are well, much of this condition is a mystery, my theory on the ratio of DHT to Test I believe is sound as I have read many places that when the ratio is off that neither hormones work correctly. To the point about Finasteride lowering it and changing the ratio, I thought about it, and I believe that the 5 alpha reductase activity plays a role, somehow that balances things, when the ratio is off I believe. I am no longer as concerned with the cause, as much as the treatment/cure (which is working for me). I want to mention that I believe I produce very high amounts of these enzymes, this was the reason I went on Avodart, to block them and stop me from breaking out on testosterone.
Considering the fact that my DHT levels were normal (and my doctor as I mentioned is a top hormone replacement doctor in the world), I believe this condition is based on our inability to create enough 5 alpha reductase enzymes. It makes sense, as I recover I start breaking out more and I lose hair, I have managed to stave off the hair loss with rogaine and hair transplants. I am happy to post my hormone test results on here, I had them done only 3 weeks ago or so, I had already been recovering then, so I can post them if you want.
As for the treatment, definitely lower levels of testosterone, at higher levels I have a paradoxical reaction, my hormone doctor doesn't pay much attention to PFS when I mention it, he shrugs it off and says "you are young and you will recover." I believe he has seen this a lot and seen a lot of guys recover via hormones, thus he has no need for even thinking about PFS. The reason he gave me for my reaction to test was as I mentioned over saturated and fatigued testosterone receptors.
5 alpha, I want to mention my progress with treatment so far, my doctor had me on 1cc of testosterone, I am taking enanthate, I split it in half, 0.5cc twice a week, the reason is, it seems my body can only handle about that much at a time. My body I imagine can only produce enough 5 alpha reductase enzymes to handle that amount of testosterone. I am still experimenting with therapies, so standby, but I do believe I have found a magic bullet, as I mentioned HCG. I did not inject another dose the night I wrote you as I had a date with a girl, the first since this all started, I felt I recovered enough to have sex, I did, for most guys I have a strong and healthy sex drive, but not normal to me yet.
Everything is coming back though, I just injected HCG, I am now (since I had sex with this girl I have been kinda seeing for a bit) am comfortable experimenting now. I injected testosterone today 0.5cc of testosterone enanthate. I have this positive reaction at first and then my muscles start to feel soft, it is like a battle to get bigger, but I am, so my body is now processing test again as I said I am about 50-60% recovered depending on the day. The times I feel 70% are actually when my testosterone injection is low and I have just injected HCG.
I am not sure if the HCG is somehow reactivating my receptors or if the HCG is simply inducing a lower production of testosterone that I can handle. My latest theory is that HCG may somehow be working synergistically with testosterone, somehow allowing my receptors to work with it better. Let me state that my recovery to 50-60% would not be possible if not for hormones. I also want to add that i have Sustanon, a form of testosterone that has 4 different testosterone ethers in it, my theory was that the multiple ethers would somehow trigger my system more to produce more DHT or 5 alpha reductase enzymes.
Sustanon seems to be working amazingly, I am afraid to play with too much testosterone right now as my body is finally building muscle again and when I inject too much I basically have an opposite reaction. So I understand why guys on this site have reacted poorly to hormones, but that doesn't mean hormones aren't working. Our systems simply are weakened and need to recover, let's see how I react to this injection of HCG 1000units. I have ordered a large supply of HCG, if I have positive results from this injection, I plan to go on high doses of HCG and see what that does, it is the only thing I have not tried.
Come Monday I plan to inject 0.5cc of Sustanon, so that will give me a total of 5 testosterone ethers in my system 0.5cc of Enanthate and 0.5cc of Sustanon. When I get things working 100% I will start eliminating things till I figure out what the bare minimum is I need. I also want to add that Arimidex 0.5mg seems to help me when I get these symptoms of needing to take a deep breath but not being able to and seems to help with my muscles getting harder. I just am not sure if it is Arimidex or not, I have to be careful as too much Arimidex kills your sex drive, so I may go back to only taking as my hormone doctor recommends 1mg of Arimidex a week. I have been taking about 0.5mg every day to every other day as I notice Estrogen symptoms.
I am recovering, I have to find out what is helping me recover faster, as I mentioned, I believe time cures this condition, but the time can be minimized with hormones. So I am at a point where my body now looks better than the body of an average guy, women are looking at me again, my muscles just will sometimes be bigger and sometimes smaller depending on hormone levels. It seems though that somehow HCG is working, as I write you my muscles are getting bigger and harder by the hour.
I have gained 5 pounds of muscle mass in the past month, I am sorry my email is jumbled, it is late and my thoughts are all over the place. So I will report back on the HCG, 5 alpha, you seem to be afraid to go on hormones, but HCG alone does nothing but awaken your receptors and cause the production of more testosterone. While you said your testosterone level was good, that is meaningless, so is mine artificially, somehow these hormones are reawakening my system, I believe the concept here is reactivating receptor activity to some extent.
I read a discussion between a doctor and I forget the Op's name who runs this site, but between him, and the doctor has suggested a protocol of high doses of DHT to reactivate something, I forget, but anyway, similar concept. I don't believe DHT is the answer though, that's what I originally though, but after finding out my DHT is normal, I believe it is the 5 alpha reductase enzymes. Let me note that HCG causes a lot of androgenic side effects like oily skin, water retention and acne, so it may be that it is working somehow to help reverse this condition. Remember that the HPTA protocol bodybuilders use to reset their receptors involves HCG.
If the HCG causes the same reaction I get with too much testosterone I will let you know, but I don't think it will, in the past couple hours my muscles turned from soft to hard. I worked out today and it's always unpredictable how I will recover, but one thing is consistent, I have been every week recovering better and growing more. Let me note that my diet is excellent, no gluten, no dairy, all organic, my food is made by a company that does this, low carb, no added salt or sugar etc.. I workout upper body for an hour then the next day lower body for an hour then the next day I take off. I also am on HGH precursors called Sermorelin with GHRP 2 and GHRP6, they do regenerate everything, so while that may be playing a role, I do believe HCG is doing this.
5 alpha, why don't you get ahold of some HCG and start injecting it? It is harmless and even healthy, all it will do is make your nuts bigger and produce more testosterone and possible reverse this condition. It could be that it is the HCG doing this, I was only taking it twice a week this whole time, since it is harmless and safe, let's see what higher doses do. I will say that HCG alone would not be able to make my muscles as big as they currently are, I am not huge but bigger than average, so somehow the HCG is allowing the testosterone to work.
I am not sure where Arimidex fits in, I am def going to try to lower it as too much Arimidex will give ALL the symptoms of PFS. It is my vanity that makes me take more, it gets rid of water retention from estrogen, when DHT is high enough it regulates estrogen. I will note that when I was injecting 1cc of test at once, I did not seem to have as much estrogen effects as my body was producing more DHT I guess, and that was keeping estrogen more in check. At least I found out what was causing my face to get bloated all this time, it was Finasteride, I used to take water pills to pee out all the water Finasteride was making me retain in my body and face, I thought it was all from testosterone, if only I had known.
DHT when lowered will cause you to bloat, the concept of using Finasteride to prevent hairloss is ridiculous, and I can't believe modern medicine would even go along with it. Also, Avodart released studies saying that it did not impede muscle mass growth, I am convinced those studies are lies, that's not possible, so it makes me question other studies now. Just some food for thought, I will report back with how I am this coming week, as well as my progress with Sustanon as well.
Let me note that this is now the 5th time after HCG that my muscles have pumped up hugely, tomorrow I expect to feel great, I just want to add that, I never feel this way after injecting testosterone alone. It is so nice to be getting my body back, when I figure out what cured me I will make sure to post it don’t worry. That is why I am keeping everything in this one thread. When I first came here it was very frustrating having to read recovery stories and people saying to look through various threads. I promise you all one thing, this thread will have the treatment/cure. I am now starting to feel the positive effects of DHT, so I am onto something here. While I was getting better every week, I could not figure out which hormone was doing it and when I would feel better, I wanted to find out what I was taking that was reversing my symptoms, that was the frustrating part. I would feel 70% better on a day I had no plans with this girl, then go back to 50% on the date, I now see a pattern here, I will report back, talk soon 5 alpha.
Oh, I also forgot to add, as I get better my body is able to handle more testosterone which then means more positive effects, I am pretty sure this problem is linked to lack of 5 alpha reductase activity. I was wondering in bed if HCG particularly increases that activity or if all these hormones do. Perhaps it is more difficult to recover on your own as not as much of those enzymes are being induced. I also wanted to add that hormonal levels fluctuate, natural ones at least, for all you know your hormones were good for the test and back and forth later. Hormones will not hurt you 5 alpha, they will only help you recover more, I can tell you that much, not at first, but overtime. The key is finding out how much your body can handle and start out there and gradually increase, let’s see how I do this week and next with the HCG discovery.
Your T/DHT ratio and the possible link of how 5 alpha reductase activity comes into play to this ratio makes sense. You have obviously put a lot of good though into this.
It’s so hard to say how exactly the hcg you are using is coming into play. It could be because the hcg you are using is simply increasing Testosterone and that added testosterone combined with what ever your levels are from injecting testosterone works out to be your sweet spot as far as T/DHT ratio is concerned.
My endo from Boston once told me that generally speaking when it comes to T levels it’s not how it got in the blood, it’s simply how much is there. But maybe there is something about this condition that makes it so you respond better to testosterone your body produces naturally. So when you inject your hcg and it’s acting as LH would normally act in the nuts by producing testosterone you are just responding better to it than bioidentical testosterone that you are injecting.
Or maybe there is more to it and hcg is acting via some other mechanism to make you feel better.
I’m going to get the ball rolling on getting on testosterone and or hcg soon. I’m going to do some more blood work to “confirm” my good natural levels. From there I’m going to make the decision if I think going on testosterone and hcg would give me a Better chance at a better t/DHT ratio.
Also as you continue to improve I would like to see what your T/DHT ratio is as I would make it my goal to try to mimic it.
Hey 5 alpha, I am happy to report that I am producing pheromones again, to a small extent, this is important to me as I really really hated having no scent coming from my body, I felt like I was made of plastic. I do believe this plays a role in attraction, I have been dating this girl and coincidentally I finally got laid once my body started coming back. I knew that would happen, my natural scent is still very weak, but it exists again, it did not at all before.
Don’t worry about what your numbers are 5 alpha, test injections are totally different because you get a huge dose and then it levels out towards the end of the week. So while your numbers are good, something must be to the high doses of test you get with HRT. Also, you must be patient with it, you may not respond as you are supposed to, but you will have improvement over time.
I also want to mention that Sustanon seems to be helping me a lot, it is a form of test I mentioned before, next week I play to just inject sustanon and not enanthate and see what happens. The improvements I have recently had I wonder if are attributed to HCG, I really am believing that. As for it being from HCG increasing my test, no way, I have played around with a lot of testosterone injections and different amounts, I would have found these results with testosterone alone if that were the case. I do believe HCG is somehow working with this condition, much of this condition is a mystery to begin with, so why HCG is helping is also a mystery. Though, since HCG awakens receptors, it makes sense that it is helping, as I mentioned bodybuilders use it.
I wouldn’t worry about my hormones 5 alpha, they have been perfect throughout this process, I do not believe test results will help this condition. I believe this has to do with reawakening the 5 alpha reductase enzymes, I can post my results if you want, but they are useless as my hormone doctor told me they are perfect. I stopped bothering him about this as I believe he thinks I am insane now, so I am just letting time and hormones fix me, I am on week 8 I believe and I have made significant recoveries. My hormone doctor told me a few months, I am sure that is the case, but every month I make big leaps.
You should find a hormone replacement therapy clinic and not go to an endo, endo’s know nothing about HRT believe it or not. HRT is like cosmetic medicine, like botox etc… 5 alpha, if you go on hormones you will have some recovery after a month, and on month 2 you should see significant changes, you will thank me. Unfortunately you won’t respond like you should on test, but in time you will. I really don’t believe this is hormonal as much as 5 alpha reductase enzymic, so these hormones induce those enzymes to start producing or reawakening again.
You can find Sustanon on the net on websites in Europe I am sure, it’s good to have a bottle in your arsenal in case you want to play around with things. Blood test results won’t help you my friend, this is something only you can know by how you feel, and don’t expect any doctors to understand what you are going through. The hell if I am sitting around on this forum waiting for a cure or treatment that is NEVER coming, the fact is that this condition affects far too few guys and the great amount of guys affected have no idea it is from finasteride. Others go on hormone replacement therapy and get better from that and no one knows it is from this.
You must take measures to fix yourself, no one else is going to, and I have already managed to get myself half way there.
5 alpha, your “sweet spot” theory seems to integrate well into what is going on with me. I injected testosterone again, this week I did not have as many bad symptoms as prior weeks, usually I would feel crappy at first then good as the test levels lowered to what I apparently can handle. The “Sweet spot,” is in fact true, I plan to find out where it is and get myself on that dose consistently, but how much I can handle is increasing with every month.
My latest theory is that this condition is a result of damage done by these drugs preventing enough 5 alpha reductase enzymes from being produces. As a result the body cannot reduce testosterone properly, some is reduced, some isn’t, the extra testosterone then causes the receptors to behave as though they are being over saturated or over stimulated and shut down.
Receptors don’t shut down even at high doses of steroids and testosterone, so this has to have something to do with the 5 alpha reductase enzyme. However, one or some or all the hormones I am taking seem to be helping me recover by producing more of these enzymes or reawakening my system to produce more.
I have been moving my two 0.5cc injections of testosterone to the same day again, as I mentioned I am injecting 0.5cc of Testosterone Enanthate and 05cc of Testosteron Sustanon. I believe the Sustanon is helping me, but it may also be just as effective as Enanthate but it comes on faster. I am not sure, but the reason I am going back to once a week injections is so that I can figure out where my “sweet spot” is. It occurs every week, but with my divided doses I have trouble isolating what is causing it. I do know that every week I am improving, and every week I inject test, I started out last month after my crash with a totally reverse reaction to it to now where I am able to handle and process about half the injection or more. I have reverse reactions only to a lesser degree now.
I would say that if I just injected 0.5cc of testosterone a week, I would process that much, every week I can handle more. The reason I want to find this “sweet spot” is to bring some stability to my life. On certain days I feel great, on others I do not, my body is coming back a lot. I look like a muscular built guy, I am told I have an amazing body, but I am not big as I was before this happened. Everything seems to work together, as my skin gets more oily, my muscles grow more and my sex drive increases.
Let’s see how this week goes, I will know more as my injections were so close together, next week will just be 1 injection. It may be that no matter what I do, these hormones are just speeding up my recovery a lot and as my doctor recommended, staying on the same dose of everything and I will recover in a few months. It seems to be the case, I am just curious if I can keep myself in the “Sweet spot” 24/7 till I recover.
I know why people here have had these reactions to hormones, I just wish people here would listen to me and go on HRT, if everyone here was on it, people would start recovering overtime I believe. Anyway, I will report back this week. 5 alpha, let me know how the HRT goes, when do you plan to go on it? I would like to compare notes with you and experiences, perhaps if you start recovering too, others who are open minded can learn from this thread and recover as well.
Please go away. Everyone has already tried every format of HRT known to man years ago with negligible success. You never even ‘crashed’ to begin with, you had bad side effects ON the drug then, being someone already obsessed/involved with hormone therapies, decided to jump on HRT straight away rather than just wait to recover naturally outwith as you almost certainly would have done outwith the five week half life of duta.
Stop talking to us like we’re idiots and haven’t tried all of this already, when you’ve been here five minutes and don’t actually have POST finasteride syndrome.
Hey Douchebag, I did crash about 8 weeks ago and lost all my muscle, libido, everything, muscle twitches, trouble taking deep breathes, I had every side effect of everyone here. I was already on HRT, the testosterone stopped working, I had a reverse reaction to it, my hormone doctor who is one of the top in the world told me to stay on hormones. I stayed on, having a reverse reaction to testosterone for weeks until finally I started to respond. Now I have about a 60% positive response to testosterone, with a reverse reaction for 2 to 4 days that has minimized a lot and then I feel normal again almost.
I am glad you are trying “natural,” how is that working for you buddy? You are so obsessed with being incurable that when someone like me has a top doctor and top therapy and is getting better, you deny reality. So go sit in the dark and mope and cure naturally while I recover and help others who actually wish to be helped.
I do have this syndrome, I wish I did not, but I do, it was the hormones that helped me recover, and yes many of you tried hormones undoubtably with the same response I had, a negative one. You all quit it, none of you stayed on the hormones DESPITE the negative response like I did as my hormone doctor asked me to, it took 1 month before I started to see recovery, then I became more optimistic, now I am about 60% recovered. So if you want to be a douchebag then go sit in the dark and mope and be one to yourself, this post is to help people to recover like I am recovering. How would you like it if I told you that you don’t have PFS??? My doctor has encountered this with other patients and successfully treated them with hormones and they came around after a few months.
Many people get this syndrome and recover thinking it is low Test, they stay on the therapy not knowing that they are having a reverse reaction as they never took test before. Perhaps you did not read that I was an executive of an anti-aging company and plastic surgery company, I have EXTENSIVE knowledge in hormones and medicine, far more than you, I am sure of it.
5 alpha, ignore this douchebag, I wanted to add my “sweet spot” occurs 4 days post injection, the paradoxical reaction only lasts about 4 days now, then my receptors are not overstimulated and behave more normally. This week I plan to inject less testosterone to see if I can maintain myself in this “sweet spot” till my body heals more and can handle more test.
You didn’t crash at all, you had sides ON the drug then started pumping yourself full of hormones when if you’d just have waited it out until the drug was out of your system ( dutas has a 5 week half life) you would have recovered like the other 95% plus of users. Can’t you read? The majority of men here crash days/weeks AFTER stopping due to the half life of propecia which is even shorter than dutas.Therefore the entire thread is a waste of time, as the lack of respondents you now get testifies.
Dozens of men have tried long term TRT with some of the ‘best’ hormone doctors in the world and felt little to nothing. Your walls of text are irrelevant, tedious and possibly misleading to the unitiated. Just go away and be grateful you never had this syndrome.
Man, I really wish that were true, but 8 or 9 weeks ago I crashed really hard, lost everything, had no emotion, became a zombie for days. I had already been on hormones, they stopped working, I expected to recover in 5 weeks, but I did not, my hormone doctor told me to stay on the hormones and I would recover. If I were having side effects from Avodart, by now at 9 weeks with the blood plasma level probably at around 20%, I should be fine. I have come back a lot, about 60%, but that's it. My muscles are growing slowly, they don't get hard, I have the symptoms of this disorder in full.
I believe being on the hormones have helped me recover, I have read this whole forum and have not found anyone who stayed on HRT for 8 or 9 weeks despite the paradoxical reactions. Look, testosterone is not working right on me, it's a lot better, but only 3 to 4 days after I inject, before that my receptors shut off or something.
I am recovering because of the hormones, it can be very frustrating right after I inject test to feel the opposite. If I weren't on hormones I would be far worse off, show me one story of one person who was on hormones consistently for 2 months, not changing all the levels, but a normal dose.
My research and post may help other victims of AVODART, why would you deny them this information? I can tell you one thing, if I had this entire post when this first started, I would have done much better. The night I crashed was the worst crash I ever experienced. I believe natural recovery would have been possible, but taken much longer.
I am not trying to harm anyone, I want someone to at least gain something from my experiences here, perhaps it can help someone who knows. I am just past the point of "side effects," and I am in recovery, perhaps being on hormones during the crash helped too, who knows. I just want someone to have access to my experiences. I am getting progressively better.
Hey brother I feel ure pain… I myself crashed last year and I got on TRT and as it sits right now I have nocturnals and morning wood and I can have sex 3 days a week without taking ed meds… I can do it from behind…I can t get on top or let them ride me but I can do it from behind… At the moment if take a 1mg daily Cialis 3 times a week I can get on top and women can ride me… So either way I don’t need meds to perform…Still have low libido but im getting better…TRT has definitely helped me… I think about 6 more months I will be 90 percent… I will say it took at least 7 months to get here being on TRT… Doc said it was reversible… And it is reversing…Slowly but surely… I hope this gives other people hope
Hey Praying To Heal, be careful, don’t say that here! Heaven forbid you ever say that hormones are helping you recover, you will be attacked by all kinds of PFS nazis calling you a heretic for not agreeing with their religious doctrines lol. It seems you are not doing as well as me time wise, I believe that being on hormones during this ordeal helped me a great deal.
I am about 60% recovered, my friend, you know just as well as I do that if you weren’t on the hormones, how much worse would you be! How much slower the recovery!? I am glad you are on them and getting better, I have played around with doses and different forms of testosterone. You can read my research and experiences in my post, perhaps they will help you get better quicker.
A lot of people here seem to think that PFS is unknown to all doctors, many are aware of it, but they don’t consider it a disorder, just “side effects” from being on these types of inhibitors. HRT doctors are familiar with it and hormones have always reversed it for their patients I guess. A lot of people in this forum refuse to stay on hormones or give them a chance or are looking for a quick fix or they deny anything can help if it doesn’t work over night.
I know this condition and situation is frustrating, but only time heals it, and hormones definitely minimize the time it takes to heal. Anyway, FYI, I am taking a form of testosterone called Sustanon, I have had better results with it than regular test, you can get it on the net from sites in other countries if your doctor won’t give it, worth a shot.
Thanks for your response man and keep up the good fight, also, just to let you know, I have had better success with lower amounts of testosterone than higher amounts, if you lower your dose you may have better results. It sucks, but it seems as though this condition limits how much testosterone your body can handle, even though you may need more, but time seems to be allowing more and more.
Man when I first crashed I couldn’t even get a blowjob… I ate a 20 mg Cialis and couldn’t keep an erection long enough to get a blowjob… Now almost a year later I can fuck every 48 hours and I mean good sex…of course it doggiestlyle but I am able to do it and keep erection… Am I chalking this up to TRT… hell yeah I am … I know without a doubt the reason this is taking place is because of TRT…As it sits right now I can eat a 1mg or less daily Cialis 3 days a week and I can get on top and grind it out and not lose erection and women can ride me no problem…When I got on trt last yeat the doc said it was reversible and he was right…i know without a doubt I wouldn’t be able to do this now if I wouldn’t have got on trt… im in the same boat… And ur right its not gonna happen overnight…it takes time to fix things… it took me 7 months to get here… but im here I may drop dosage down to where my t runs between 600 and see if erection improves like that… Either way I can be somewhat normal like this and doc said it was reversible and he also said that libido would come back in full force over time…its a time process and I truly believe I am speeding it up… If I would have only done it 3 months I wouldn’t have been able to tell it was helping me long term but it truly has…
scaredoutofmymind, how long were you on it? It is not a quick fix, I was on it before, during and after the crash, it all stopped working after the crash form Avodart. It is now 9 weeks later and it is working about 50% I would say, I am recovered about 60%. How many months were you on it? It takes time, but it definitely speeds up the process as hormone doctors are familiar with this condition, just not by name, and many have been on hormones and recovered from it. I want you and everyone here to recover, I am just trying to share my experiences in hopes that it helps some.
I really wasnt on it but for a few weeks. One thing that scared me was I was having daily chest pains. After seeing hardly any benefits except maybe a little more bulky shoulders, I quit.
Test is only 600? My HRT doctor is progressive and believes it should be 1200, same as when you were 18, you might want to up the test and you will have better results sexually. Your body may be able to handle higher doses of test, at only the 8th week I am now for the first time seemingly able to handle 1CC of test enanthate 200mg. So far no paradoxical (reverse) reactions, this is the first time I have reacted normally to a test injection. If I have any reactions on the second day when it peaks, I know they will go away on the 3rd and 4th day based on my previous experience thus far. Keep up the good fight, I think you are on way too little test, what dose you on? How much HCG? What type of testosterone? I am on Enanthate and was playing around with Sustanon. Testosterone made me feel like shit the past 2 months, only now do I feel great and normal again, muscles have come back, though they aren’t yet as hard like before the crash, they are bigger than a normal guy and my body looks amazing. Everything is almost back to normal, I would put myself at about 70-80% right now by week 9.
