Did you get neurological effects like vision that got better with your TRT? What about numbness? That get better?
Hi JustQuitDut,
Can you elaborate on āhormone replacement doctorā. Does this mean an endocrinologist? Urologist? OBGYN with specialty in HRT? Iād love to find the right doctor to go to but am just not sure who to turn to. Any recommendations?
Thanks, LTU
Justquitdut, you are under the impression that this is a basic hormonal issue/5ar inactivity issue. It is not. the large majority of men here have good blood values but bad sides. Myself included. I have high t and dht and low E. Men have been tampering with pct and hormones since this syndrome came to existance. Occassionally short lived recoveries occur and some sides can be reduced in intensity but for the large part pfs persists.
You are naive to think we should all hope on some random hormone replacement therapy and get better. Perhaps have a read around the forum at the multiple efforts and see the lack of success before proclaiming a cure. I m glad you feel better pumping hormones into yourself but it has little to no effect on most. In some cases worsening of symptoms occurs.
I hope you continue to improve
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I see what you are saying. However if you really read everything Justquitdut is saying heās offering a suggestion as to why taking hormones does not help at first and sometimes makes us worse. He Is saying that he believes this condition is all about testosterone to DHT ratios and that this ratio needs to be in itās āsweet spotā for us to feel normal. Heās also saying this not only is are ratios off when suffering from PFS that going on hormones can make this ratio even worse which can be a possible explanation on why some of us get worse on HRT. His main point is if are natural production of hormones are so messed up because of pfs than we will never have a good testosterone- DHT ration which means we canāt get better. With that said I think heās more or less saying that we have the best chance of having this āsweet spotā as far as what we need are T/DHT ratios to be if we are taking testosterone. In other words if I am understanding his theory correctly stay on testosterone and in the long run this gives your body the best chance to come to that proper testostetone to DHT ratio that is screwed up by messing with the 5 alpha reductase enzymes.
Justquitdut good to hear you are doing pretty good. Better than most here anyway. Iām curious to know what your T-DHT ratios is right now 6.5 weeks into this condition.
Could u post them?
I actually have my first DHT and T-DHT ratio readings that I will post on this thread soon. When I do could u tell me what u think about my T-DHT ratio.
Keep up the good progress and continue to keep us updated
Thanks
The more I think about this T-DHT ratio theory the more it makes sense.
I mean after all we know 2 things for a fact:
-
endoās say that T-estrogen ratios are important for a normal
Functioning endocrine system so we know hormone ratios are important. -
we all took drugs that decrease DHT obviously messing with are T- DHT ratios.
I think the true way to test this theory is that we need guys who got there T-DHT ratios tested before and after pfs onsetā¦
You can take testosterone. You can take DHT. You can reduce E2.
If it was just these three hormones at play, PFS would be completely curable. Thereās no such thing as a āsweet-spotā, just varying levels of androgenity. Before PFS many of us had too much androgens, hence premature hairloss. After PFS we now have insufficient androgenic activity.
Iāve injected huge amounts of testosterone. Iāve used 3 tubes of Andractim (DHT cream), Iāve taken Masteron, Proviron, Androhard and Winstrol. (All DHT derivatives)
The androgens in my body should be hugely elevated - yet my heads no even itchy. I havenāt shed any hair since PFS, I was losing more hair when I was actually on the drug.
This suggests there is something counteracting the effects of these androgens - we know itās not E2 since AIs simply do not work.
Yeah I dunno about this theory. If it were simply t:dht ratio would we not have been at our worst on the drug when 70% dht was being inhibited? I felt more or less fine on the drug, just slightly lower libido which I didn t want to deal with so I came off. Thatās when things went to shit. Massive crash 2 months after quitting having considered myself largly recovered at that point.
Agree here. Feels like some critical downstream stuff beyond the basic plasma hormone concentration. The fuel is all there according to my bloods but It just isn t igniting. The chain is broken.
Androstenedione: 0.6. (Ref range 0.5-2.2)
Testosterone (Te). 6.1 (ref range 2.6-8.9)
DHT. 0.77. (Ref range 0.24-0.84)
Te/DHT ratio 8.0. (7.9-15.2)
5a-Androstane-3B, 17B-DIOL (3B-Adiol) 3.7 low. (Ref range 4.0-20.2)
5a-Androstane-3a,17B-DIOL (3a-Adiol) 3.3 (Ref range 2.3-10.5)
3B-Adiol (DHT-3a-Adiol) ratio 0.9. (Ref range 0.8-6.5)
Justquitdut these guys bring up some good points to debunk the T-DHT ratio theory. But Iām still considering it as a possible explanation. My latest test results are posted above. What do you think about that T-DHT ratio. According to that scale itās coming in pretty low. But my DHT and T levels look great. What do u think?
Maybe these results confirm your theory because although my DHT and T levels are looking real good my t-DHT ratio is 2 far on the low end of the scaleā¦
Thatās a good point as 2 why this theory does not make sense.
Only thing I could think of in your case as far as your endocrine system is concerned those lowered DHT levels u had while on the drug was still a better T-DHT ratio than the T-DHT ratio u ended up with once your DHT levels went back up from stoping the drug. Deff not a full proof explanation but itās something
I mean y else am i not feeling right with those above mentioned DHT and t levels?
Is it really possibly my body is resistant to hormones?
What about a possibly explanation on how reducing DHT in your body can result in your body becoming resistant to hormones? If we had one maybe the resistance theory could carry more weight
I get what u r saying. What u bring up deff pokes holes in his theory. But do u think that itās possible that large amounts of hormones no longer make your head itch and hair fall out because testosterone is no longer being 5 alpha reduced in your scalp because the DHT inhibiter having long term effects on preventing that conversion to DHT on your scalp.
In other words do u think there is a diff between being resistant to hormones and DHT just not being produced in certain areas such as the scalp?
Iām all for the resistance theory but looking through every post on this website looking for a well thought out explanation on why reducing DHT than allowing DHT levels to rise again (stoping the drug Iām referring 2 obviously) could cause the body to be resistant to that DHT. All that has taken place was is the DHT levels went up and downā¦
At least the t- DHT ratio theory makes sense in the regard that lowering/rising DHT levels will obviously change the t-DHT ratio in your bodyā¦ Although like u mentioned there r other parts of the theory that donāt make much sense
Itās a good thing to look into 2. A member whoās user name is Vincent is looking into this. He is looking into a link between high levels of a DHT metabolite that he believes acts as an estrogen in the body. He bases this theory on a recent study that was done in Italy that showed high levels of this metabolite in people with PFS.
I did suffer those effects in the early stages of my crash, but since I was on hormones I quickly recovered from those effects. Those effects are directly linked to the 5 alpha reductase 3 enzyme.
Friends, hello again, I have great news, I am on the verge of something big! For everyone here, I donāt want to get hopes up, but as you all know I have refused to sit idle and do nothing, I have extensive knowledge in hormones and medicine and access to lots of hormones and drugs. I have one of the best hormone doctors in the world, but in the end I have been left with time to heal me, and as I have mentioned, I have been recovering quickly due to being on hormones.
I did not make the link until today that a certain hormone I am taking is reversing the symptoms of PFS, I donāt want to get your hopes up yet. As I have told you friends, I am the guinea pig, I have found a specific form of testosterone and a certain hormone to possibly be a treatment and a cure. Let me note though that I do not believe anyone here can be completely cured without being on Hormone replacement therapy.
These drugs destroy your hormone production, when it recovers it is never the same, thus I have had low testosterone for years and had no idea that it was Finasteride that caused it. Avodart finished me, thankfully I was on hormones when it happened or I think I would have killed myself. I am finding the approach to fixing this is not through hormones in, but through hormones OUT!.
So while we need Testosterone replacement for sure, we need HCG, as many of you may know here HCG is a testosterone precursor and used in HPTA Reset protocol. I have yet to isolate if Arimidex is helping me or if it is a coincidence. As I had my blood levels tested they were perfect, but at the time it was the next day after I injected HCG. Only today did I notice a trend that somehow I did not notice before, it seems that my symptoms reverse greatly after HCG injections. Let it be noted that if my testosterone levels are too high I feel as though I have no testosterone. My hormone doctor tells me my receptors are getting tired and over saturated, I believe this condition somehow exhausts our receptors.
This is where HCG comes in, HCG reawakens receptors, it causes your testicles to produce more testosterone, it awakens the HPTA system. I have been experimenting with everything, I am currently on Sustanon, it is a very potent form of testosterone, it has 4 testosterone ethers in it. I have taken a small dose of that and of Testosterone Enanthate, my theory was that the more test ethers, the more DHT ignited. I am doing the reverse of what I always have done, I am trying to create side effects! Side effects are in response to DHT.
Since it is too complicated to regulate DHT to testosterone ratio, my latest theory is HCG, please note that my theories are based on my personal responses and experiences, so they are theories based on real data. Right now I am doing well, my muscles are pumped up, today I masturbated like 5 times and am still horny, have made 2 dates with girls. I have been trying to find a way to get myself consistent, it seems HCG may be the road, but then again it could be Sustanon, and it could be Arimidex, or a combination.
I am currently going to be experimenting with all 3 isolating each one to find out which is working, but I am pretty sure it is HCG since that has caused this positive response every time, and it makes sense. This week I am getting a huge order of HCG from a doctor friend, I plan to be using large doses of HCG every other day, HCG is very safe, and in fact healthy, in women it doesnāt do much hormonally, in guys it is very potent. It is a hormone produced by pregnant women found in their urine, it is used for hormone replacement therapy to reverse testicular atrophy and as a fertility drug for men.
It can be purchased in injectable form online for relatively cheap $150 for an average monthly supply (buying from steroid websites online bla bla). Many of you here are afraid to go on hormone replacement therapy, let me point out that HCG only causes your body to produce more of its own testosterone, if you take it for a while and quit, it has no backlash, all it does is push your body to produce more test. I have found body builders to be using this in their HTPA reset protocols after they exhaust their receptors from overuse of steroids.
Oh yes, I am on the verge of a treatment, I just have to find out if Sustanon plays in, and how much HCG and how and when. Right now I am doing well, I made a date tomorrow, I am considering injecting another dose of HCG. Normally I wouldnāt care, it causes my nuts to get bigger and I get more horny and produce more test, but with this condition things are unpredictable. Though, if you read my posts you will find that by week 7 I am 60% better, I may even be 70% better, but I donāt know. What happens is I make a recovery leap and then I remain there for a while, but I never go back.
I will keep you guys up to date on my progress, but if someone did not want to go on hormone replacement therapy, a guy could get some of the effects with HCG alone. In fact, some doctors use high doses of HCG alone for low test. I really wish I wouldnāt go and inject more HCG as right now I am doing great as of today, but knowing myself, I will probably inject it tonight. This condition is weird, it seems too much testosterone is a bad thing, but lower doses seem to work. Look at it as that is all your body can handle right now, but by week 7 I have recovered so much. Right now my body looks amazing, definitely not as big as I was, but my muscles are coming back and I am already bigger in size than the average guy who works out.
I just didnāt make the link between HCG and my symptoms improving, I was too focused on trying to get testosterone to start working again. Let me also note I am on Sermorelin (an HGH precursor), that is probably helping me regenerate things that are damaged, but I do believe I am on the right path. Think about it, body builders use HCG to reset their hormones, I am improving after I inject it, I am not putting another hormone in my body, I am making it produce more. Screw it I am going to inject more HCG after I am done here, if I have a reverse reaction I will cancel my date, right now finding a treatment and a cure is more important.
Also, please let me mention, anyone here who is taking Nizoral shampoo, STAY AWAY FROM IT!!! It is an anti-androgenic shampoo that helps hairloss, I thought it would be harmless, it is not, it demolished my libido which just recovered after a few days off of it.
Will keep you guys posted!
Finbasteride, I hear you, but please read my recent post, I do not believe as you say, I know why you are all not responding to hormones correctly. My values are perfect as well, but it is the 5 alpha reductase activity, this CANNOT be tested, the problem is the ratio of testosterone to DHT, itās all screwed up, and it is a receptor problem as well. We are not the only ones to suffer all these sides, body builders do too, who abuse steroids for years. Anyway, I have explained in my last post what is going on, I am working with one of the top hormone doctors in the world as well as my knowledge and experience in medicine, I was an executive of an anti-aging medical company.
I am trying to help everyone here with my recovery, I am not recovering because I am lucky Finbasteride, I am not reacting to hormones properly either, and my levels are all perfect, nevertheless I am recovering at a rapid rate, week 7 I am already about 60% better. Itās not luck, the entire hormonal system is screwed up, the hormones I am on are reawakening it and allowing my body to fix itself faster, without hormones I would be recovering as slow as everyone else here for sure. How do I know this? Simple, my hormones have been keeping me to a state of where I was before I was on them, and gradually have become better and better, if it were not for them I would still be recovering slowly from that horrible crash.
Dannyfc, you are wrong, the reason those hormones did not work is because your entire hormonal system is screwed up. We are not hormone resistant, I have proven that, I have stayed on hormones consistently as my top hormone doctor suggested, if it were not for him I would have quit long ago, nevertheless by week 7 my system has come around about 60% better, perhaps 70%. As for why on Finasteride with 70% of DHT suppressed that you guys were doing fine, well, that was BEFORE the 5 alpha reductase crash! The crash screwed everything up, I was fine before I took Avodart. My hormone doctor has seen guys go through this and they have all recovered on hormone replacement therapy consistently after a few months.
DHT will not help as you have no way of regulating the DHT to Testosterone ratio, there is in fact a āsweet spot,ā I reach it every week, it is getting better and better and always after injecting certain hormones. Initially I was ready to go on DHT, but my hormone doctor stopped me, it would have made things worse, and he told me more testosterone would make things worse, he was right. Look, I am not some moron on here injecting stuff I buy off the net, I am a former executive of an anti-aging medical company with top class doctors at my disposal and hormones and knowledge. Most importantly, I am getting better every week, never worse.
You can believe me or not, but either way I will continue to share my experiences to help everyone here. 5 alpha, it is the enzyme activity for sure to answer your questions, I hope my reply did. It has to be the enzyme activity, it is no mystery that if you suppress the 5 alpha reductase 3 enzyme that you have all sorts of visual and neurological defects, that explains why many here have those effects.
Let me note that my 5 alpha reductase activity has restarted, my skin is oily again, I am breaking out again, who would have thought that would be a positive thing? I have lost a lot of hair having quit finasteride, but I recently had hair transplants, that and rogaine are keeping me good for now. Had I not just had hair transplants I canāt imagine where I would be right now.
5 alpha, also I wanted to say that I do not believe this is incurable, I believe without hormones it takes a while, a long time, between 1 month to 4 years, but with hormones the process can be sped up very quickly. Just look at it this way, if you break your arm, you wear a cast, why? It provides strength to your arm where strength is weak, so that it can recover quickly and more efficiently. I just donāt see how this is a permanent problem when I have had every symptom here and I am recovering. Last month I was not responding to testosterone correctly, this month I am responding to it 50% correctly, when I over-inject I have a reverse reaction as my receptors and body canāt handle it. I simply am not producing enough of the 5 alpha enzyme to reduce test to DHT. Now I am producing more, I am almost recovered, I think another 1 to 3 months and I will be 100%, perhaps only 1 month as I am almost there.
As for blood level tests, they will not help, there is no way to measure the 5 alpha enzyme activity, it is no coincidence that as my skin becomes more oily my symptoms improve, itās all connected. This is a lack of 5 alpha enzyme production, without those enzymes regulating hormone levels, you could inject all you want and nothing will work right. Furthermore, while all your hormones are going crazy your receptors are getting over saturated and exhausted and fatigued. Of course if you inject different steroids they will not provide a magic quick fix, you have to be on steady HRT consistently to help your body recover.
Let me also state that people studying this condition are not going to keep someone suffering from it on HRT long term waiting for them to heal, why would they? We react paradoxically to hormones, but my HRT doctor is world famous and he has a lot of experience with this, he insisted I stay on the hormones. I wonāt deny I lost hope a lot, but he was right. Studies are usually not done long term and the similartiies between PFS sufferers may be a result of androgen receptor deprivation damage. I point to the most recent study posted here on penile tissue? It found differences in those with and without PFS, the study suggested it was due to androgen deprivation damage. That was one key reason I had no problem staying on hormones, I Wanted to prevent that damage.
Hi Longtimeuser, good question, one would think a hormone replacement doctor would be an Endocrinologist, seems logical no? I mean, wouldnāt you assume the best injectors of botox or filler would be a plastic surgeon? In both cases you would be wrong, plastic surgeons are the worst cosmetic injectors, it is a specialty and an art, Cosmetic Dermatologists are the best. These are doctors who specialized just in injectables and skin, and beauty, plastic surgeons deal with cosmetic surgery, and cosmetic surgery is becoming more rare with injectables.
The comparison is that my hormone replacement doctor is not an endo as I suspected, but a doctor who specialized in this specific field (I also want to mention my hair transplant doctor is a dermatologist). You have to look for a hormone replacement therapy clinic on google nearby. You can google search for a good doctor, the therapy isnāt as expensive as you would think. I pay $600 for 10 weeks, it includes all drugs and hormones and doctor visits, comes to $60 a week.
It is unlikely the HRT doctor will know much about PFS, but he may have experience with guys who quit 5 alpha inhibitors and had negative experiences and then recovered with hormones. You will have to be patient, it may take a while for your body to come around, I was on hormones before, during and after, so my recovery has been quick. I have no idea how long it will take someone who wasnāt on hormones, but I suspect you will respond just as quickly.
This disorder many people here like to think of as permanent is not, there are plenty of recovery stories and they all are similar. In the end it is time that heals this, nothing else, everything all these guys have tried has done little but perhaps enhance their hormones to better recover. What I am saying is that hormone replacement therapy speeds up that time, if hormones are the fuel and everything we want is the fire, more speed it up.
This isnāt just a theory, I am going through it now, it took me 6 weeks to notice any change, in the beginning I was reacting opposite to testosterone. I would inject it and feel all opposite effects, now I realize my receptors were/are overstimulated and are just recovering and/or I wasnāt creating enough 5 alpha reductase enzymes. You may be disappointed for a month or 2, but if you stick to it, you will recover, otherwise you leave your recovery to your own weakened hormones.
One of the problems with hormones is they change a lot, so testing with this condition isnāt useful, plus, something about hormones is helping recovery, I cannot say for certain what. I can say my doctor has experience with this and probably never took PFS seriously, he probably sees it as patients who have had these sides and then recovered on hormones. Remember, lots of guys end up like this and get better, older guys go on HRT and donāt have much improvement at first, but then mysteriously do 6 months down the road, doctors say āoh they are slow responders.ā Perhaps they were PFS sufferers, I think that the differences in PFS sufferers and non PFS sufferers are temporary and that they are just androgen deprivation damage (as a recent study mentions).
I bet if they did a study on recovered PFS sufferers they would find no differences in them and non PFS sufferers. You can sit around and do nothing about it like the doom sayers on here, afraid at the effects of hormones, or you can fight this and give it a shot. Itās working for me, and I donāt know about you all, but the hell if I was going to remain like that forever, I canāt imagine the post crash for the rest of my life, I just want to help people here. When I first went through this I couldnāt imagine things getting worse, so even though testosterone wasnāt working at all, I felt that staying on was better than going off, and my doctor kept promising I would get better.
I will say last month I lost hope many times, but it was because I was recovering but so slowly I couldnāt notice it. I now know I have recovered significantly, the sensation in my penis is going back to when I was on testosterone before this happened. The best description is if you remember when you were 18 and your penis was more sensitive and felt great, it wasnāt because you were young! It was hormones! I was surprised to find that out when I first went on test before all this.
Anyway, itās back to that, I wish you would all get better as well, thatās why I take my time to share my experiences as I know that I have more resources than most people (both financially and doctor wise). I know I have something to add that can help people, so I am trying to share it in this one post so that one day you all can tell people to read this post and not have to search through a million posts. This is my documenting the entire recovery.
Justquitdut good to hear things are still looking pretty good for you.
So in summery after I have gone through all of your posts you credit your 60-70 percent recovery on lowering your T dosage which was beneficially to you because it created a better T/DHT ratio than the t/DHT ratio you had on a higher dose of T. Also the lower does of T helped your receptors from not being overworked and over saturated with hormones. You also feel as if the HcG has helped you as well because not only is the hcg resulting in testosterone production but itās somehow activating damaged/shut off receptors in your body.
All good info and again good news.
Would you be willing to get blood work done and post the results on this thread. Iām interested to know what your readings are coming in as now that you feel 60-70 percent recovered.
I know as u already explained blood work values are of little use for us as they do not reflect 5 alpha reductase activity. However you have also made it clear that you believe the right t/DHT ratios need to be at their sweet spot for the purpose of not over saturating the receptors and for the purpose of having good t/DHT ratios. I want to compare my current natural readings to your current readings to see how close they are. I know u mentioned how you recently lowered your T dosage so Iām curious to know how they compare to my Readings.