This is from another thread, I wanted to post it here, just so you know IGF-1 is what is released by HGH, here is scientific evidence to back my claims and experiences.
Androgen induction of steroid 5 alpha-reductase may be mediated via insulin-like growth factor-I
The abstract:
The action of added insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) on steroid 5 alpha-reductase (5 alpha R) activity was studied using primary cultures of rat or human scrotal skin fibroblasts. Agents were added to cultured cells (2 x 10(5) cells) for 2 days, and enzyme activity was measured by the percent conversion of [3H] testosterone to DHT over a 4-h period in the absence of fetal calf serum or other growth factors. DHT, but not testosterone, at 10(-7) M significantly increased 5 alpha R activity (rat, 1.5 +/- 0.3% to 3.0 +/- 0.4%; human, 7.6 +/- 1.7% to 11.4 +/- 2.9%; P < 0.01). IGF-I (10(-9)-6.4 x 10(-9) M), but not IGF-II (10(-9)-10(-8) M) or insulin (10(-9)-10(-7) M), increased enzyme activity in a dose-related fashion [i.e. 1.5 +/- 0.5 to 10 +/- 2 in rat and 6.0 +/- 1.1 to 9.8 +/- 1.6% (P < 0.01) in human cells]. No change in cell numbers was observed in any experiment. Since the effect of IGF-I was about 100 times that of androgen, we studied the possibility that androgen induction of the enzyme activity could be via IGF-I production. Addition of a monoclonal antibody against IGF-I significantly reduced the effect of DHT, and simultaneous addition of a specific IGF-I receptor antibody blocked the expected induction of 5 alpha R activity (control, 4.9 +/- 0.5; DHT, 8.0 +/- 1.9; DHT plus IGF-I receptor antibody, 3.7 +/- 0.4%). No effect on 3 alpha-reduction of [3H]DHT to 3 alpha-androstanediol was detected in separate experiments. These studies indicate that IGF-I may be an important regulator of skin 5 alpha R activity and, thus, may influence DHT formation. The previously known androgen induction of this peripheral steroidogenic enzyme may be via paracrine/autocrine production of an IGF-I-type growth factor.
I also wanted to repost this, something MEW posted a while back, I plan to look into this peptide as well, but since I am on something that has been studied and I know is safe, I am not going to try this unless the HGH protocol stops working. Apparently it is a peptide that is some kind of synthetic 5AR enzyme, I have not looked into it yet as I am in remission, but for research purposes I will post it here.
SRD5A2 peptide available for purchase, for research purposes… wether this could be useful to us or not I have no idea… but if it turns out through genetic testing 5AR2 turns out to be defective/inactivated, perhaps this could help restore activity? Would need to speak to a geneticist.
“Since the effect of IGF-I was about 100 times that of androgen, we studied the possibility that androgen induction of the enzyme activity could be via IGF-I production.”
I just noticed this, these scientists theorize that based on their experiments it may be that IGF-1 (HGH) may be the MEANS to which testosterone is converted to DHT. In other words for Testosterone to have the ability to convert to DHT, it may use HGH for that purpose.
All this just is science backing my current PFS remission, HGH is like the car Testosterone drives to get to DHT. Its like Testosterone is a hot guy, and HGH is his hot car, and DHT is a nightclub where he is at there VIP. So if the Car is missing, the guy can't get to the nightclub, I mean you could send a cab, but all the girls he would be hanging with would see the cab or his car, but none of the girls would care about him because he would have no hot car. So transportation isn't the only role of the car, it has other purposes, the car is the 5 alpha reductase enzymes, but the fuel may be HGH according to this study and my experiences.
So I made an appointment with an anti-aging doctor for next week. Starting to put together all of my info and notes from here to discuss with him – and this is obviously going to be a big part of it. Will let you know what we discuss and decide, if anything.
The info about the actions of those 5ar enzymes is really interesting. I didn’t know that’s how it worked. I’m just wondering if a few of the things I’ve experienced fit with your sense of what’s going on:
I lost my libido/dick retracted after a high-stress episode: This occurred while I was still on Propecia. I remember it vividly. I was dumped and took it extremely hard. Didn’t sleep for a weekend, crying all the time, heart racing etc. Like a panic attack. I’ve never experienced something like that. And it was during that that I suddenly lost that daily craving for sex – found myself going weeks without jerking off, no random erections during the day etc. Is there a relationship that you know of between an intense stress event like that and 5ar function?
A huge issue for me is weight redistribution. Basically, it collects in a feminine way now – thighs have gotten monstrous, gyno, lots of fat around midsection. This has been brutal to deal with. It’s not related to diet/exercise – I was in great shape, exercised all the time, while on Propecia. The gyno, interestingly, only seemed to start after I quit. The thighs and midsection stuff started while I was on it. Also, my forearms and lower legs are much thinner now, and so is my face – guessing this is collagen loss? If you just looked at my face, you’d say I’m skeletal. If you just looked at my torso, you’d say I’m fat.
Sweating and body odor. You’ve mentioned body odor in yours – and I think we’re dealing with the same issue. For me, it happened when I quit. I started sweating much less, like an 80% reduction, and my body odor is now something between vinegar and cat piss.
Just curious how these sorts of symptoms – particularly the way I lost my libido – fit (or don’t fit) with what you think is going on in us…
Yes yes yes, PFS, probably your testosterone levels are completely fucked too, so I suggest HRT, but you won't be able to respond to HRT except for a half a dose of whatever they prescribe (if you are lucky), you will need the HGH protocol to respond to testosterone. So basically the 5 alpha reductase enzymes are responsible for all the masculinity you lost, the regulation and possible production of these are fucked. The 5 AR 1 enzyme would have given you male phenomenal scent which is now gone. I have only slightly restored mine, but I am still on a low dose of testosterone.
The side effects of the HGH therapy is that my muscles got huge really fast, either it is from that or because my body is responding to testosterone again or both. As for your face, it is not collagen, I am pretty sure it is muscle loss, I was in the cosmetic medicine business, so I know a thing or two about this. When I crashed I took photos during the whole process, my face looks totally different now than it did during the crash as my muscle came back from this therapy.
When you lose the muscle in your face, your face starts looking old and feminine, it is horrid. When I crashed I had so much muscle on me that I had no idea what was going on, and what's worse, I was in the middle of a unique experience with a female that I rather not describe on here, but it just made things worse. I threw her out of my room when she wanted to sleep with me because I wasn't getting hard and couldn't figure out why.
This condition is beyond the scope of regular medicine, endocrinologists only look at numbers, they have no idea how to treat a condition like this. This is something only anti-aging doctors can treat, but even they don't know how to treat it, I do, I found out by accident. Let me give you some advice, please take it to heart, save your notes and leave them home, don't discuss PFS with the doctor, don't discuss 5AR enzyme activity, none of this, leave that for here. 5 alpha can tell you as he was banned from his endocrinologist's office, I have been banned, had appointments cancelled. My anti-aging doctor stopped taking me seriously when I brought this stuff up, so play dumb, and just describe what happened and your symptoms.
The one thing you can say in hopes that this doctor has some unique perspective none of us have encountered is that you have found others with the same reaction as you on the internet and every single one of those guys did not react to hormones correctly after the event. If he brushes it off, or whatever, just leave it at that, if you insist or try to educate him, his ego will take over and/or he will think you are nuts. Just tell him someone else with the same problem started feeling better from Sermorelin/GHRP2/GHRP6 (HGH PRECURSOR therapy).
You don't need to go to a doctor, but I don't have the time to explain everything to you, so I recommend you start the hormones with an anti-aging doctor and learn all about how they work. You can reverse the symptoms of PFS to an extent with HGH therapy, but you will need hormones as your testosterone is probably shot, you must be prepared for a long commitment. If you did not have PFS one shot would make you feel amazing, but because you have PFS, you will have to give the HGH therapy a good 6 months to work before the testosterone starts to work. However, we do not know how Sermorelin/GHRP2/GHRP6 works in a PFS sufferer when they first start it, it may quickly start regulating your 5AR activity. I also would suggest in the meantime you go to a vitamin shop and buy yourself some DHEA, it will improve your symptoms quite a bit if you take it every day, a couple times a day even.
Now HGH therapy is very expensive, and using these precursors it is entirely safe, so once you are comfortable, look at my page 11 of this thread and follow my protocol to mix and make the drug yourself for only about $100 a month. Once you learn how everything works you can buy it all on the net for much cheaper in the future. Just take my advice, do not bring up PFS or any of this, it will result in an argument or irritation on your side or the doctor's. My anti-aging doctor's nurse told me "oh stop reading things on the internet," they don't have the answer, but they have the treatment.
I and whoever is reading what I am saying are the only people who know what PFS is, let me give you some more advice. When you go to a doctor it is their obligation to treat you, when you tell them what is already wrong you make their job easier and they stop listening. It is irritating but you have to play dumb and play the doctor, it will save you a lot of trouble. I have given up on trying to "recover," and have switched to "treatment," I do believe I will recover in time, and you too, but in the meantime, I found a trick that works.
Apparently increasing HGH levels puts PFS at bay, not 100%, but enough, I went from being skinny to being buff, like overnight! How long has it been since I started this protocol? Maybe a few weeks, maybe 2 before that, I gained about 30 lbs of muscle, you should see the guys at the gym wondering what the fuck I am taking lol. I am still experimenting with this, trying to find what works the best with doses and all, because this condition is unique. We don't produce enough 5AR enzymes, most guys when they are injected with testosterone just produce a bunch of them, unlimited.
I have found a protocol which will bring a PFS sufferer to about 90%, and because of the protocol, you will be better than pre-PFS in some ways, in fact you may see it as 150% since you never experienced HRT before PFS. So the hope is that our body's will recover on their own eventually, but in the meantime, we can at least function and live normally. Hopefully the HGH therapy is speeding up recovery from this, I mean HGH speeds up all recovery, why not this? Save yourself the trouble and take my advice, I have been dealing with this for 5 months and I have tried everything and so far others have responded the way I predicted to the things I told them to take.
This is a real condition, fasting, lizard tails and parsley will not cure this, you need hard core shit, but look at the bright side, once you get on all the hormones and get the dosages right, eventually you will be able to live normally and feel great. It just seems that if you stop the HGH therapy, this condition relapses, and you need high doses of it too. I don't know about you, but I cannot live with PFS for even 1 more day, I am willing to take anything, and thankfully the treatment is something that has been tested and studied and we know is safe.
Also keep in mind testosterone propionate, you may want to score a bottle online, when you need a boost I highly recommend it, it is great for PFS because it induces so much 5AR activity. I decided not to use it as I started breaking out and losing more hair, it enhances the side effects, but just in case I keep it around. Bare in mind that if you get those side effects it means your PFS is in remission, so it is not a bad thing per se, but once I got my PFS in remission I had to focus on other things like looking good etc..
Good luck, please let us know how it goes and remember that we don't know that Sermorelin/GHRP2/GHRP6 will work right away, it will probably take 6 months, this is a commitment.
That’s probably true about the doctor. I’ve seen a number of specialists, even well-meaning ones, who end up only hearing about 10 percent of my story before tuning me out.
Anyway, yeah – my testosterone is very low. Low T, low free T, and high SHBG. I wonder why? I mean, Propecia acts on 5ar – so I get why DHT would be messed up. But why would it result in lower T too?
I know that when you’re on Propecia, one of the risks – supposedly – is that you’re T will get higher (because it isn’t being converted) and that your E might then increase too, leading to gyno and other estrogen issues. Estrogen isn’t my problem, though – at least not according to bloodwork. My first bloodwork was done about two weeks after I quit Propecia, and it showed everything was low – T, free T, and estrogen. Only SHBG was high. (Unfortunately, I had no bloodwork done while I was actually on Propecia.) I still wonder why losing my libido coincided with getting dumped. This wasn’t just a psychological, I’m-sad-and-can’t-get-hard thing – this was a complete loss of libido that has persisted for 2 1/2 years, along with a rectraccted dick that seems to have pivoted at the base and changed physically.
I can explain that, there are male sexual characteristics that you probably lost during the course of taking propecia and you just don’t understand how it affects how women perceive you. Your face, your scent, your attitude, your body, I am sure it all didn’t change as soon as you got dumped, your levels were falling and low and the female lost interest. Personality alone, after my crash I became a lot more effeminate, I returned now to masculine, but that occurred after the crash, it was horrid, it all was, even I with my deep understanding of these things had no idea to what extent I was affected until things came back.
When she dumped you it just so happens things got worse, I am sure it didn’t help, but her dumping you didn’t cause these things to happen. We are programmed to attribute something to something bad so we don’t do that something again, you throw up after you eat pizza and you stop eating it for a year etc… Let me give you an example, after my crash a female that thought I was hot became my friend and lost interest in me, now that everything has come back she fucks me anytime I want. After my crash I would beg her and get nothing out of her.
I also want to report that I raised my testosterone and male phenomenal scent is coming out, very minimal but it is probably enough for the subconscious to detect in women. Forget Estrogen, don’t listen to people who say to take arimidex, it will ANNIHILATE your sex drive if you have one, Estrogen is responsible for libido and mood as well. Don’t worry about all that, just get on HRT, it will improve your situation about 50%, the rest will need to be done with HGH therapy.
Increasing testosterone from propecia is a total scam, as your body can’t do much with it after PFS, I am surprised you haven’t tried HRT before you came to this forum? How do you know that’s not all you need? I can’t imagine PFS in addition to low testosterone, I think I would definitely do myself in at that point, and that is why I have been so aggressive with treatments for myself. As for how propecia caused low testosterone, who knows? We don’t even know how it caused PFS, trust me, once you get this under control you will stop caring so much.
I believe there are different levels of PFS, yours may not be as bad as you think, you have no way of knowing without going on HRT. Fuck endocrinologists, they are fucking useless, I haven’t found one who even deals with low testosterone, only anti-aging (aka HRT) doctors do. Your best bet with this condition is to pretty much keep it to yourself, don’t discuss it with people or doctors, it will only make people think you are insane, and doctors will not take you seriously. We must wait for this condition to be recognized by modern medicine, before that happens it’s best to keep discussions here in my opinion.
You will be a lot better if you do what I say, when do you plan on going?
So I have tried HRT. I was on Testosterone injections from November 2012 through September 2013 – and I tried another T shot (at a low dose) a few weeks ago as well. What I found:
First shot in 11/12 restored my sex drive. It was amazing. I would get rock hard at the slightest sexual/romantic thought and I’d just instinctively think about sex – and the horniness would build until I got some kind of release. Just like it had always been before this. Weirdly, this flickered on and off for about 2 weeks. Some days, it would be like this – just totally on. I remember one of those days I jerked off 4 times and then had sex that night. And when I was having sex, I was so hard and so into it – nothing like it is now. Other days, there’d be nothing. It was just so weird: It was like a light switch – it would turn on and off, 100% to 0 and back to 100% day to day. Then, after about 2 weeks, it just stopped turning back and on and stayed off.
Kept taking injections through September '13. Tried raising/lowering dosage and frequency, but nothing did anything. Just no response. It was as if I was injecting water into myself or something.
Waited a year and tried another injection – this was a few weeks ago. Very small dose. Wanted to see if my body would handle it differently now. But no response (except that problems I’ve had with very frequent urination did improve)
So yes, it did work once. But never again. I think back a lot to those 2 weeks that it was working – gives me hope this must be beatable somehow.
I do think there was a connection for me between getting dumped and losing my libido. I mean, it was so exact. I was crushed when I got dumped – worst emotional episode of my life. Like someone I love dying. (I think in hindsight that Propecia made me a lot less capable of dealing with stress and anxiety, which contributed to how hard I took it.) But anyway – the difference in libido after that weekend (I didn’t sleep, I was so emotional) was profound. I remember realizing a few days later that it had been a week since I’d jerked off – and that I hadn’t even thought about it. Fucking scary feeling. I chalked it up to the stress of the break-up then, but 2.5 years later, it never came back – except for those two weeks when the T shot was working. And like I said, there are the physical issues with my dick too – retracting and all of that.
As I think about this, your double-barrel approach – supplementing T and promoting 5ar – does seem consistent with some of the recovery stories on here. I know one guy used AndroHard and felt real improvement with it. That’s off the market now, but there’s a fairly close substitute – AlphaHard – and from what I’ve read, these may promote 5ar production/activity. If that’s right, then combined with a t-raising regimen, maybe they’d help? I do have Alpha Hard here, and I’ve never used it. Wondering if I might give it a try before leaping into something like HGH precursors, to see if there’s any response.
My appointment is Monday. I’ll temper my expectations. But I can show him all of the lab work that’s been done on me, describe the nightmare I’ve been living for 2.5 years, and try to impress on him what I’ve found on here in terms of recovery stories. Maybe he’ll surprise me…
I should add: Before I lost my libido I was having Propecia side effects too. The libido loss came in May '12, but I started on the drug in March '11. And in the months after I started Propecia, I experienced a gradual onset of issues – first was fat around my belly/midsection, then my thighs, and also profuse sweating (but no strange smell or anything), night sweats, and ridiculous sensitivity to temperatures. I’d be shivering if it was 70 degrees in a room and I didn’t have a sweatshirt on, but I’d also start sweating like crazy with slight exertion.
All of this preceded losing my libido, so definitely sometime bad was going on due to Propecia even before the sexual stuff started. I just couldn’t figure out at the time what it was. Only made the connection after the fact…
Your relationship fell apart because of propecia, it turned off your male sexuality, it is horrible, I am sorry, but you must move on and try not to think about the past. I am excited for you to go on my protocol, I believe it will change your life, the hormones for sure, at least 50% better for sure. Let’s see what happens with the HGH therapy, you may respond as I did and one other PFS sufferer.
I also would get very cold when PFS was in full effect, that same symptom occurred when I took too much arimidex in the past. Arimidex lowers estrogen, this condition is a nightmare, I just injected testosterone, having normal reactions yet again. Thanks to this HGH precursor protocol, it works, it is regulating my 5AR enzymes.
I recommend a low dose of testosterone with the HGH protocol, where everyone has gone wrong is thinking the dose isn’t high enough. With PFS you need a low dose, because you only have so many 5AR enzymes. The HGH protocol should help you to handle more, but let’s see, I wish I had me in the future to help me in the past with PFS, knowing what I know now, so that’s why I am happy to share my knowledge.
The testosterone will fix your body issues once you start responding to it, also HGH burns body fat and causes muscle growth etc… Rock hard orgasms, most importantly, it can repair the damage done to your body by PFS.
i was going through extreme stress also right before the crash,definately a connection with the stress i believe,fingers crossed this works for you,good luck…
Im starting to think i don’t have PFS because every thing i try i never crash like u are talking about… My symptoms keep improving… like on topical test i would lose erection sometimes and now n injections i never lose erections and they are not weak erections… So i think i dodged the bullet…Howevr i didn’t dodge the low t bullet… But responding to t feels great…who would have thought
You have PFS Praying To Heal, you just lowered your dose to 0.4cc of Testosteron Cypionate which I also responded to without my HGH protocol. With my HGH protocol I can respond to higher doses of test, when you were on higher doses it was not working, in normal men it works.
If you did not have PFS, you would not be here after being on HRT, and testosterone gel works better for guys with PFS because it ignites 5 alpha reductase enzymes and is quickly out. If you were to inject 1CC of testosterone you would crash. Normal men would just get more horny, more muscular, feel better etc… The only thing that has consistently worked for me is this HGH precursor protocol.
It is my hope in time the HGH protocol will heal me, but we will see, in the meantime I will keep reporting my progress here so we can all see what happens. Even with the HGH protocol though, my 5AR enzyme regulation is compromised from PFS, it is just reversing the damage and symptoms, if I stop injecting the Sermorelin/GHRP2/GHRP6 PFS reemerges. I am on 0.8cc of testosterone enanthate, but I split it in 2 doses which is a very bad idea with PFS. You use up too much 5 AR enzymes that way, one dose once a week works better, so I am on twice the dose that you are on Praying To Heal.
I wanted to also add that I am trying not to come to the forum as much, I am trying to focus on living life even though I have PFS and have a way to put it into remission. Mew suggested I come back in a few months, so I am trying to not come here as much. So if I disappear it is because I am just trying to come here less, but I will come back to report any changes in my situation.
So far with this protocol I have been able to prevent and reverse crashes, and Praying To Heal, I am more in tune with hormones than you are. I was on them before, during and after the crash. I am not sure you were on them before PFS, if you were you would understand the HUGE difference. Trust me man, if you didn’t have PFS you would not NEED any kind of ED drug ever, you would be constantly hard like an 18 year old.
I also want to recommend Testosterone Propionate, try it Praying to Heal, it is the only form of testosterone that consistently gave me good results because it induces so much 5AR enzyme activity. If you use some your libido will go through the roof, rock hard erections. Like once a week just to produce enough 5AR enzymes, try it man, body builders use it for libido.
Vacation from this site is not always a bad idea.
Here is a crazy one:
I found info on this drug called cyclosporine. It’s used to help people adjust to organ transplants and also has other purposes. I found some info that suggests it has the ability to induce 5AR
Here is the link that says cyclosporine may increase 5ar:
In that above posted link it says something about this drug causing hypertrichosis. This is kind of a trip and kinda funny but hypertrichosis is some weird condition where you have so much body hair you look like a wolf. LoL google hypertrichosis and you will see.
Anyway if cyclosporine can increase DHT via 5ar in the skin to the extent that it turns you into a wolf man than this must be some powerful shit.
I’m tired of trying to help people here by sharing my experiences and getting insulted, so I am taking a break and will return in a few months and post my end result by then. I will probably check in from time to time, but for the record, the HGH protocol plus testosterone propionate is the best way to reverse PFS. Testosterone propionate induces a lot of 5 alpha reductase enzymes then it leaves your system.
Plus, I am getting better and I stay here and make myself think I am worse by reading negative stories, people here are sometimes really nasty. It is a shame because not many here are doing the things I am doing, and I could help others with my experiences, but it is not good for my mental health to come to a place where I am insulted constantly.
Anyway, I will post any significant updates if they occur and hopefully come back in a few months and post how I am and my protocol then. I still have PFS in remission with the HGH protocol and testosterone propionate a few times a week 30mg each time. I will look into that drug, but I am currently having laser hair removal done on my upper body, that’s all I need is to turn into a wolf lol.
Ya man even though I more or less posting it as a j/k that link does say it can increase 5ar in the skin tissue. I thought it was interesting. Good to hear the HGH is still working for you. Your hgh method has me thinking in new directions and I’m looking forward to getting over my fears with self injection so I can try it.
Please Let us know how the hgh is working sometime down the road. I’m looking forward to recent quitters experience with it. I think it’s interesting that a common PFS symptom is poor sleep and that getting quality sleep is needed for proper hgh production.
So far so good, i still have PFS, I just am managing to regulate my 5ar activity, and I suggest you get over your fear. Many here are afraid of hormones because they don't understand how to use them with PFS. Without hormones your body starts going through androgen deprivation. The key is to find a way to live a normal predictable life. I developed a form of ptsd from PFS, I'm trying to move past it. Even though everything works I'm afraid to go on dates and have sex, I think taking a break from this forum will be healthy for me. I got a date tonight and going out with friends, I will report back with any updates. About that synthetic 5ar enzyme, it's something to consider as another protocol if this eventually fails. I do wonder though if part of this is working because it is reawakening the petuitary gland
It’s understandable. I’m not the “same” mentally after dealing with these side effects. My family and friends see it but I’ve never told a anyone about any of this shit. These sides would screw any guy up. Your not the only one.
When I first found this site which was also during the same period of Time I had my “second PFS crash” after taking saw palmetto ( took saw palmetto not knowing my problems where caused by Avodart) my mind when into overdrive which caused me to stay up for two weeks straight with absolutely no sleep what so ever.
Stayed away for 3 months from this site and I was good. Now this site helps me.
If you have a chance down the road post the info about the synatic 5 ar enzyme you found on this site.
