Im sure we will hear from him soon. Hes probablly just trying to settle into his new regime and get some hard data before he comes back and reports to us.
Im getting a little concerned about him…
Did it work? Did it not work and if so where is he now? Has he had some troubles with acquiring the drug?
I’m sure he’ll post when he is able, and only if he is confident in what he has to say, considering his past changes of heart on previous treatments.
Hmmm no-ones heard from JN in about 3 weeks…somthings up.
He has checked in on another post. He is out of computer range for the time being and will update when he gets back. I can’t remember what post it was, but it was recent, this week.
Thanks C…Ive just checked it out.
THIS IS MY POST FROM 3 DAYS AGO—JN—
Right chaps,
I just made a big post but I lost it. This is the slimmed down version.
I have been thinking a lot.
I have noticed the following 2 weeks on masteron
- Within 10 mins I FELT BETTER. Markedly so. Zero anxiety. Much happier. No argument.
- Increased sweating
- Increased acne R side neck (a third of what it was pre fin)
- Increased body hair (difficult to assess but I think so)
- Increased vascularity arms and legs, hands, feet
- Loss of central abdo fat, much more ‘cut’
- Increased beard density
- Increased nasal bogies ( I used to pick my nose a lot, this is a good sign, and I wasn’t looking for it)
- Improved erections, semi morning woods regularly, nearly full boner when fully stiumlated, more ejaculate (but still stringy), fuller scrotum, larger testes. Libido difficult to assess as I’ve been messing around with Arimidex
- Noticeably deeper sleep (wasn;t looking out for this, but feeling more refreshed).
- possibly deeper voice.
Clearly have responded to DHT addition. Shame it’s not a total cure but I need to do full hormone profile (I am VERY interested in my Prolactin level).
Need to give it more time.
Hopefully this is all Adiol G related, but we need to be open minded.
This is my avenue of exploration for the next few weeks to months. Please don’t expect too much from me, please leave me in peace. Do not pm me, do not text me, do not contact me apart from AWOR who I want to chat to on skype. Awor, you have my skype details. I’m about to email you my email address.
Please contribute to the healthy debate Awor has set before us,
JN
Hey chaps,
Maybe I can’t stay away. Sorry about my bluntness 3 days ago. Essentially, I am trying to get my T down and my E2 down. I took too much Arimidex and thus lowered my E2 too much. I felt like shit. Fuck me, I have been through hell, back into hell, out again…man, this whole thing is crazy.
Essentially I have taken 200mg T in the last 4 weeks. I believe my T levels are nearly ‘normal’. The good news is that I am happy WITH A NEARLY NORMAL LEVEL OF T. Honestly, off Masteron I couldn’t take 150mg per week of T without ending up crying at work and feeling like there was a black dog on my shoulder, wrenching my soul. I am elated that I can feel normal with a normal level of T. This is a massive change. I used to need 250mg per week to survive. I believe Masteron is increasing Adiol G (incidentally, androgens work with 3 Adiol G to induce hedonic sensation, see scientific journal, previous post from someone? who). I felt better after 10 mins of injecting Masteron, I swear.
I believe my E2 is nearly normal now (my recent Arimidex has worn off and I am happy, yes happy!). I feel good. My aim now is to maintain T at high normal level, therefore NEVER taking Arimidex ever again (E2 should NEVER rise).
I am increasing my Masteron dose accordingly. I am finding I need to take over 300mg per week (in 3 divided 100mg doses). My erections are good (nearly full erections with a full feeling, morning erections, my libido is improving) (now that I am allowing E2 to normalise). My ejaculate is looking healthy, my acne is returning.
In the DHT heptanoate study (regularly posted) the literature stated one chap required 250mg of enanthate (heptanoate) ester to take his Adiol G from bottom to top of range. Enanthate is dosed twice weekly by BBs so I calculate I may require about 500mg per week.
For the next few weeks I will be clarifying and maintaining a normal level of T and a normal level of E2/prolactin via blood tests.
I think the following may be a good regimen for me:
T 60mg per week
HCG 150iu three times a week
Masteron 150mg every other day.
I think I am going to get better, but it will take weeks to iron out the high T/high E2/prolactin issue and get stabilised.
I feel happy at the moment, but I am not there yet. I need to be patient and so does everyone else.
I think Awor is wrong (I am going to have a google chat with him) with his theory about DHT not working. I have seen good effects from Masteron.
Still, I welcome his excellent post and encourage debate.
JN
JN,
DHT not working is not a theory but rather the sad reality for some of us (which is verifiable with Andractim). The only theoretical question here is by what mechanism androgen insensitivity is occurring (methylation, regulatory proteins, etc.). Like I said, not everybody is affected to the same degree. Your case seems to be an exceptionally fortunate one, in that you seem to have sufficient remaining sensitivity to respond to androgen replacement. It would have been very instructional if you would have taken the Andractim step first before going in there with Masteron, in order to be more comparable.
What is apparent in my case, and also with other men on this board which I have been in contact with, is that eventually fade will appear (despite initial positive response). People experiencing this commonly believe that some other hormones are to blame for this problem. I can only explain it with an additional “desensitization” in response to androgen overload. You seem to be tracking your hormonal levels very closely, so if such a fade were to occur with you, we can hopefully exclude estradiol, prolactin, adiol-G and whatever. Of course, I sincerely hope that you will be spared of such a fade. Either way, your case is going to be exceptionally instructive for all of us. Please try and report your progress on a regular basis and as objective as possible. I often find this to be quite a challenging requirement myself and have started keeping a little log book where I note how I am feeling because with hindsight things often tend to get a little blurred.
If fade does appear in your case, do not succumb to the temptation to increase dosing to compensate for this. The resistance will only get bigger if you do. In my case this vicious circle (increasing dosage) destroyed the little sensitivity I had left.
All the best to you.
I have a little theory about our resopnse to Arimidex that is very logical.
We know that lowering DHT in a nutshell, raises E in our body. Normally when you take away something in your body that was never meant to be there, you initially have a negative reaction - The Herxheimer Effect, where all of your symptoms come on even stronger as your liver trys to detoxify the remaining substance that is stored in fat cells and in other tissues of the body.
This also explains why we get worse when we stop taking the drug. Because the liver is allowed to detoxify the estrogen creating all the hormonal issues we experience. Also some men never have problems with Fin, others recover in a months, others in years. So then, its fair to say that different guys have different detoxification abilities.
I know that when I go too low on E, I DEFINATELY get symptoms of detoxification. In fact it is very simlar to that of Glutathione pathway detoxification. I know this because I have had liver function tests and have had targeted detoxification.
In no way am I suggesting guys should start pushing their E too low, im just saying, I think it would be a good idea to slowly push the E down and see we dont break through the other side once the E has had time to get out of our systems. Also our reaction to “low E” is far more sickly and hellish than that you will read on body buidling forums and it also seems we are far more sensitive to it.
Low E or detoxification symptoms…Keep this in mind boys. If it is detoxification symptoms, that means we have pushed somthing in the right direction and if we keep at it there should be a light at the end of the tunnel.
I should add to my previous post. This also could be liver failure because ive read somehwere that taking your E too low with effect how your liver works in a negative way while you are too low.
So is it liver damage, or is it detoxification? And if its detoxification, then it should be a matter of finding where the end of the ball of string is.
Please dont move these posts to the Theories thread please mods…
This has a direct relationship to how JN feels when he takes Arimidex.
Awor,
I respect that you did not appear to have a good effect with DHT, but that is not to say that it will not work.
I have spent countless hours trawling BB sites, educating myself and pumping all sorts of drugs into my system in trying to get better, and I have met no real confirmed cases of androgen insensitivity. Indeed, I was not aware that the androgen receptors could be downregulated or made insensitive.
I did find that Proviron helped me, but upto a certain point. If I took too much, I would slightly worsen. Did you know that Proviron (and other DHT) reduce SHBG formation in the liver, and therefore frees up T. Thus more T will be converted to oestrogen, negating the effects of DHT? An increase oestrogen will cause a concomitant rise in prolactin, which similarly effects sexual peformance adversely.
Until you can prove via blood tests (a FULL panel) that ALL your hormones are optimal, you should be aware of stating wholeheartedly that you are ‘androgen insensitive’. What is Adiol G? What is your prolactin? What is your E2?
Simply applying loads of DHT won’t fix this. You need a balance of important parameters.
I agree that Andractim is probably a more clinically sound alternative to Masteron as literature states the dosage required to elevate Adiol (I posted this literature earlier in this thread). I just prefer injections, that’s all.
I am still making good progress on Masteron. I personally need to ensure my T gets into normal range, therefore NEVER raising oestrogen, then titrate Masteron up.
JN
When I say “the drug” here I mean Finasteride. The way I worded it there makes it look like im talking about Arimdex. So what I mean is that when we stop taking Finasteride, the estrogen is immediately pulled out of our system, but because there is so much of it the liver is literally clogged up (this actually happens in real life and is very treatable) or there is just so much E backed up in out tissues that its going to take time to get rid of it all.
Phil from the hypogonadism yahoo group said it took him 6 months on arimidex to get all of the E out of his system before his libido came back.
JN I like where your going with this. Your very thorough and I agree with you 100% that its a very fine balance, and perhaps more than what some of the fellas here realise. Heck, there are guys out there who have never touched Finasteride who need their hormones fine tuned down to the wire in order to feel better.
Hang in there JN, we will figure this out…
JN as far as receptor downregulation goes (I dont really buy this argument either), shouldnt we look for signs from the HPTA as to whether or not the body and therefor the receptors are acknowledging the androgens are in our system? So when we administer TRT, if the body stops producing LH, and estrogen is in check, surely this means the body is receiving the TRT via the recptors???
Or is there some other way to guage this via HPTA secreting hormones? FSH?
You can’t be serious. Were you perhaps surfing on some Yoga sites? Every BB that deserves this name does cycles. Do you know what the rationale is behind cycles? It doesn’t seem so. BB’s have found out ages ago that pumping in androgens for an extended time does not work. The benefit stops after a while. It is common BB wisdom that this has to do with androgen receptor desensitization.
trickyjackson.com/training/index.html
bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson196.htm
(This is a pretty wrong and unscientific explanation, but I think you get the picture. Not the number of receptors get reduced but rather the sensitivity thereof).
illpumpyouup.com/articles/in … eptors.htm
ETC, ETC, etc…
[Size=4]The scientific explanation behind this:[/size]
mend.endojournals.org/cgi/conten … ct/7/7/924
I really am starting to wonder why everyone is so much in denial around here. I happen to have my estrogen values pre/during/post Andractim and also have Prolactin. Everything is not only within range but also did not substantially budge. You guys are always looking for the same lame excuses to justify loss of response. I don’t know what the benefit is supposed to be of that. With regard to your recovery with Masteron, I would say that we first wait and see if Masteron works long term with you. I predict that it won’t. And hopefully you will have the full panel that you are talking about to be able to exclude ANY hormonal influence. Hopefully we can start having a more sensible approach to this problem at some point in the future. Right now it’s like talking against a wall.
So then Awor, how should we be going about getting better if this is a receptor downregulation problem? Is there a treatment?
Or are we all simply fucked and we are wasting out time here?
You may be right, but I am seeing good effects from Masteron. Naturally I will continue to see if I can get fully better.
I believe there is a possibility that I would be totally better now if I wasnt messing around with high T and E2 levels.
My proviron ‘good effect’ was sustained for several years, and consistent.
I feel good.
If I don’t succeed in getting better, I will doubtlessly join you in the androgen desensitisation camp, so I’m sorry it feels to you like you’re banging your head against the wall.
This is my avenue of exploration for now.
JN
JN,
If it’s working for you…then keeping doing it…I appreciate your feedback. Dustin, another poster on here, is taking a lot of TRT( i belive 600 mg if you look at his posts) to feel right. My feeling is that this is making him feel god because it’s boosting his DHT up very highh and 3 adiol G. What you are saying absolutely makes sense, and it seems like it’s working for you. We must also keep Estradial under control as well…Again thanks for your feedback as always I appreciate it…
Thanks,
anonnn
Hi-Level answer: Don’t overdo it with androgens. Because if you do, you are likely to inhibit your body’s natural ability to re-sensitize indefinitely.
First of all, we are all in the same boat, albeit on different decks. We’ve got the whole spectrum, from people that react very badly to any form of androgen replacement (like me), to people that react rather well (like JN and dustin* – I would like to hear an update from dustin). JN seems to be one of the first guys to react well to DHT replacement (though the jury is still out on that one – we need to see how things will look in >2 months).
You need to find out on what deck you are. The first thing one can potentially try is TRT. You have already done this and it made you feel like crap, if I understand correctly. You said this 2.5 years ago and are since talking about raising DHT. Have you ever tried doing this (Andractim, Proviron, etc.)? That’s probably the next thing you need to assess. You once posted that you thought the problem could not only be hormonal. TRT is never this hard. Damn right you were. You also stated that shots could probably be better because of lower estrogen. This is correct, but T cream/gel actually has a much higher conversion to DHT as well. Of course you can believe that 5AR2 is dead and hence nothing gets converted. If this is your line of thought, then Andractim should do miracles for you. I would try that next (for max. 2-3 days), we can pm about this if you want.
I need some input from you before I can continue:
- Are you still on TRT?
- Did you ever try raising DHT?
But in order to really find out how we can get better, we need to finally understand what the problem is. We all have some level of androgen receptor desensitization, but that doesn’t really say much. There are about a dozen of different mechanisms that can cause this. We need a scientist to help us figure out what is going on. Getting this involvement may require initial financing. Raising money in this forum to investigate a certain problem (or at least report on it) is only going to happen if we can agree on what we want investigated. More people need to eliminate 5AR2 deficiency as a possible cause in their minds. For this, they need to try Andractim. And people who have never tried it, should stop spamming this place with Adiol-G garbage until they have done so (and understand what they are talking about).
Fucked: no
Wasting time: definitely!
*Dutin reacted well to TRT, but NOT to DHT, see his post:
I began the first week with 25mgs per day. My erections were consistently about 75%. I thought this was good news, and I just likely needed a higher dose. So I started taking 50mgs per day (one tab AM, one tab PM). However, I didn’t have any improvement the second week at a higher dose. It even seemed worse and less consistent (50%-75%). Nevertheless, I continued at 50mgs per day for the following three weeks. My ED did NOT improve at all.
Regardless, I am done with using Proviron. … It seems Proviron does not make any real improvements in my ED
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … ght=#17846
[Size=4]anonnn1: How do you explain this in light of a 5AR2 deficiency??[/size]