J89,
Yes, it makes sense the Italian chap got better taking Arimidex 1/2 tab twice weekly.
I think this is all about E2/DHT antagonism. With me, clinically, if my E2 rises (as my T is super high), my situation worsens.
J89, I have set up the following yahoo group. Please join it. It is for Australian men.
health.groups.yahoo.com/group/au … _sufferers
Australian men need to join forces and get themselves better. Please introduce other Australia based men to join this group.
JN
i will be praying to god that it will cure you
Hi JN
I think I am done with waiting. I am thinking I am going no where by waiting, Especially when my values are still falling in 8 month period. I was on Agel for 2 months. Had to come off b/c of side effects, like water in my legs ,sluggishness, tiredness etc. My first few weeks were good but then got progressively worse, even worse than when I was not on the gel. I think I had builtup Estrogen.
I am asking you b/c you are Doctor and have gone through this all. Unfortunately my Doct did not tell any thing like that.
I need you advice and guidance here.
SPS
spstriken, were you monitering your estrogen? Sure sounds like estrogen to me.
Some of you guys need to take the TRT thing a bit more seriously I think. Just slapping on some T gel isnt going to be a magic cure. You need to monitor your estrogen, since its most likely an abundance of estrogen that got you into this mess in the first place.
Please fellas, lets try and get our docs to work with us, or find another doctor. We need to be proactive here.
I am very surprised about how careless a guy who claims to be a doctor goes about playing around with hormones. It is your perfect right to inject anything you want into your own body. On the other hand it is reckless if you fire up a bunch of desperate young men to jump onto a hormone bandwagon which could very well be a straight ticket to hell. Some people in this forum are so desperate that they’ll try anything to get better – understandably so. But the risk of screwing things up even further is substantial. If you really are a doctor you should be acutely aware of the responsibility that you carry by making such recommendations. It may very well be that you have benefited from TRT – that makes you a lucky exception. I will guarantee you that not everyone who tries supplementing androgens will react as favorably as you (claim to) have. The experience I made by trying to supplement TRT, Proviron and especially DHT (Andractim) is a very different one and almost cost me my life.
Consider this for a moment: Maybe our bodies are actively resisting androgens. This is exactly my personal, painful experience. If you have studied medicine you should be aware that the body is capable of shutting down its own sensitivity to hormones through mechanisms which are far more potent than a truckload of Finasteride. Any attempt to brute force the system will be potentially met by an over-reaction on the shutdown side. I would give anything to return to the state I was in before supplementing androgens, which is possibly the state that many of you guys are in right now.
I have since not recovered from this mistake and I urge all of you to consider further androgen supplementation very, very carefully. Demand to see solid proof that something really works before putting your own recovery at risk. And if you are going blaze the trail and take the risk, I suggest you don’t jump from firecrackers to the atomic bomb without working yourself through the conventional weapons first. In other words trying out Masteron without first giving Andractim a try is simply plain stupid. Generally assuming that estrogens are the problem because androgen supplementation is not working, and taking further stuff to “fight” them too, is along the same flawed line of thought.
The purpose of this forum is to learn from the experience of others - not to repeat the same mistakes.
Wishing you a safe recovery.
Amen Brother.
What did the androgens do to you then?
What surprises you about my methods?
How would you describe my practice as careless?
Be specific, as I’m sure others are interested to know.
I have jumped on the drostanolone bandwagon, maybe too quickly, but it had a clear effect on me when I tested it for 5 days in November. I am worried about the dosage, however, and whether it will suppress E2 too much. Certainly I’m concerned that too much will have an antagonstic effect.
I intend to take the appropriate dose of Masteron to correlate will a level of Adiol G in the upper third of normal.
Maybe you’re correct in saying Andractim is a better and safer option. There certainly is a defined way of using Andractim which correlates with an increase in Adiol G.
If this is too difficult for others, then yes, I would recommend Andractim.
Maybe I jumped on it quickly as it is a BB drug and I tend towards their practices. Also, Josh Fuller mentioned success with IM DHT, but no success with Andractim.
I do not know of any methods by which the body reduces its sensitivity to androgens. Do you mean receptors?
I welcome your input and hope we can discuss this in more depth. I have read many of your posts, Awor, and will reread them now to refresh myself. In short (and please answer this), tell me EXACTLY what you were taking when you were going through Andractim.
JN
PS, I have posted literature for both Andractim and Drostanolone on this thread.
Awor,
I have been through your posts. They are informative. I would very much welcome chatting with you and I am sending you my skype details.
Also, I note you haven’t posted your Adiol G score.
Were you on TRT when you took Andractim?
It stands to reason that too much Andractim will have an opposing action on E2, thus negating effects.
Have you tested IGF values. GH suppression could certainly explain your symptoms, specifically low IGF-1 and IGF BP3.
I would like to declare that I notice a difference using Proviron vs, not using it. Too much Proviron, however, frees up T and thus more aromatisation into E2, meaning a higher dose of Arimidex (thus complicating the picture). I also noticed a significant difference when I used Masteron, although I took far too much and I believe I opposed my E2.
I believe the IDEAL treatment would be:
Testosterone 80mg per week
HCG 250iu per week
Andractim (at the dosage required to shift Adiol G to high normal).
The ONLY reason I am using Drostanolone is because I don’t want to wipe gel on my balls for the rest of my life.
Until this regimen (or similar) is achieved and one is affirmed to have a normal GH response, I still believe the 5AR2 enzyme is dysfunctional.
I really invite a healthy discussion on this because I don’t want to promise too much hope to others or even myself. I am nervous about all this.
In my use of medicine and understanding of medicine, I do not know of mechanisms of inducing androgen insensitivity, to be honest. Replacement is replacement and the effects correlate. One can upregulate or downregulate receptors accordingly but to my knowledge, the androgen receptor is not desensitised like an opioid receptor, is it?
Hopefully we can chat soon,
JN
This is the simple logic that i agree with. I started loosing hair when i was 15 years old. I used to have a very itchy scalp. This was the DHT killing off the folicles. My doctor said that when i quit Finesteride my hair would play catch up loss very quickly which i did fear. Over a year after qutting and im not loosing any at all. I actually went through a period where i did loose a substantial amount. I think this was straight after quitting when the DHT flooded back in, then everything crashed. Its quite odd, for a few months i will look somewhat bald, then the new hair cycle will start and i actually look ive growing hair. A woman at work asked me a while back if i have more hair now.
One thing my basic knowledge doesn’t understand is that when body builders boost their T levels very high this causes Down regulation. We effectively lowered our DHT levels, so you could almost expect upregulation? Still, we also raised our T levels and cause god knows what type of imbalance. Its unfortunate many of us seem to show different symptoms, making diagnosis pretty tough. I do think in my case DHT is probablly the culprit though. I have all the hallmarks of androgen deprivation. Low energy, low libido, limp noodle…
With all that being said im glad you are taking what Awor said seriously. I respect JN a lot for the balls he has in trying to fix the problem. That said i do care a great deal about what happens to him. JN just be careful with these hormones mate 
. You may be right in that the only chance we have is with supplementation, but its possible there is nothing we can do aswell. Im at a different stage of this problem than many others. I still have hope of recovery. Im 26 years old and think i will give myself till 30 with limited medical intervention before i start hitting the hard stuff… Its quite possible im living in total denial thinking im going to heal.
Sennex, trying to cure this problem with herbs, time or some other natural way is like trying to sink a battleship with a pebble.
Finasteride is a POTENT drug. We are going to need potent drugs to counteract the damage or at least level out the damage this drug has done to us. Yes I do think you are in denial and leaving your body without androgens for four years is probably far more dangerous to your health than going on TRT, not to mention the anguish you will suffer mentally.
I think we are on the right track by targeting both DHT and Estrogen. I think these are the two single biggest factor in our symptoms and I really glad some of us here are actively trying to seek an answer by going down these paths. We have spent far too long sitting on our hands and playing with diets, herbs and other things that just dont work.
Sennex keep in mind that without no Testosterone production, there will be no DHT production.
You need to cure the first problem which is a lack of testosterone. Do try and fix DHT first would be putting the cart before the horse and hence why myself and JN stress that TRT is important.
I must have really thrown that pebble pretty f’in hard then, cause my battleship is sinking finally after four years of hardcore sides. Hmmmm. I went the all natural route, as I’m sure you’re aware. We shouldn’t make blanket statements gents. Myself and others are curing using extreme natural methods. I’m living proof.
Good luck fellas.
And yes, since my pebble throwing, my hair is falling out like gangbusters…not that I give a shit any more.
Say what you will, but what I’m doing is working. Do you guys just not want to believe me? Do you think I am a liar? Maybe you’re into continued suffering? Or is it you just can’t bear to give up your cooked food and go for a fast to save your health. It still amazes me that I am pouring my heart out on this site and there are still haters. Such is life I guess.
I have to be candidly honest with myself. At times I have deluded myself over the last 9 years, and have given myself too much hope. And held the emotions of others to ransom.
I decided to welcome awor’s cautious words earlier. I think we should all welcome them.
Now, as I sit here typing in my bed (after having an emotional outburst of panic in front of my beautiful girlfriend…my God she’s amazing) I still, in my right mind think my problem is Adiol G. Awor, I think you are wrong with androgen desensitisation. Of course, we all HOPE you are wrong. Even you do.
Reasons:
TRT never worked properly for me. When discussing situations with well respected bodybuilders, I always confused them with my lack of response, esp sexual symptoms, to TRT. TRT did, however, make me feel ‘happier’ and eat better and exist better and get me through life better.
These are my symptoms currently:
My hair does not fall out
My acne from side of neck has gone
My scrotum is less full
Little volume and lumpiness/watery ejaculate
Erectile dysfunction
Low libido
Reduced penis sensitivity
Prostate problems, increasingly so.
Less sweating
I feel shit
I swear on my life (and I want to declare this honestly before my Masteron arrives this weekend) that every single one of those symptoms improved within 24 hours of taking Masteron when I nipped back to UK, except the hair loss one (I wet shave my skull so it’s difficult to assess), but after 3 days, my scalp was itchy and burning, and I think hairloss would otherwise have begun.
Added to this, I was startled at the denseness of my facial hair when I looked in the mirror. It was genuinely different when I wet shaved my bearded area.
I was sitting in UK in brother’s flat at 3am with the best erection I had in 9 years. I had that ‘feeling’ back. That ‘sensitivity’. I texted my girlfriend dirty messages to Australia.
I swear that after 1 hour of injecting (I was sitting on a train), I FELT better. I walked down the pavement (after getting off the train) and I felt like I ‘was part of the world’. A strange feeling of belonging and security.
I wrote down on a piece of paper that Masteron was the cure for me. I took too much, however, and I think that made me worse. I was feeling very horny on the way back to UK on the aeroplane. In the aeroplane toilet I injected another 300mg Drostanolone (Masteron) Propionate, and the effect it had was to make me run to the toilet and piss like a trooper where I hadn’t really been drinking. This, I am sure, was the anti-oestrogen effect as it was shedding water off me (a desired effect for BB). My libido and erectile function went with it.
I think a longer course at a much lower dose is what is required. My Adiol G was 3.94 on a scale of 2.6 to 15. I predicted a low Adiol G (ok, not difficult), but nonetheless, I am reassured by both the abnormality in Adiol G and my response to Masteron.
Awor, why have we ALL got low Adiol G results?
This fits entirely and perfectly with clinical symptoms, and the response of many of us (albeit inadequately) to Proviron (I have always maintained this).
I am happy for any contrary opinions to be put forward, but we cannot ignore Adiol G and I fucking well hope that DHT replacement works for me and for others.
I am VERY interested to hear EXACTLY what you were taking when you tried Andractim. Did you notice anything? I know there is another chap here (I won’t mention him) who is on TRT and has started Masteron (and not noticed anything). I wonder if his Masteron is real. It is a notoriously faked product due to its lack of anabolicity and I know he got it online.
I at least noticed a big outburst of acne on my face within 4 days. You can’t argue with acne! My girlfriend will verify this!
WRT doasge of Masteron, I am constantly revising it downwards. I am going to take 50mg every other day of Masteron Propionate. I will post my reasoning later, but it’s based on bioavailabilty of IM Masteron, and the relative effects of Proviron with it’s low BA. Also, bear in mind that 300mg a week is what was taken for attempted oestrogen blockade in women with breast cancer.
Chaps, you may want to take Andractim instead.
I want to throw 3 other things into the equation
WRT the last point, I do not take GH anymore. Normalisation of IGF values did not give me anywhere near full symptomatic relief. I will continue checking IGF values as it is DHT in particular (yes, DHT!) that induces formation of IGF in the liver. Maybe that is why I am low (the lack of DHT effect on liver, rather than GH formed from pituitary).
Until YOU have ruled out ALL the above, you cannot state it is an androgen insensitvity problem. Also, your claim for this does not fit my understanding of receptor biochemistry or protein synthesis (effect on nucleus).
I stand to be corrected Awor. I’m scared shitless by all this. I hope we can have a thorough and positive discussion on skype and that we smash this shit of an existence.
JN
cdnuts,
Good on you. I hear what you say, but when I was 21 and this shit hit me, I couldn’t even eat a proper meal, such was my overwhelming anxiety.
I do remember making a small amount of progress when I tried gyming it and eating well etc…
I’m a disciplined person, and I’d eat anything to get myself better, but it wasn’t to be for me.
TRT lifted me up out of the mud. Good luck to you and keep going.
JN
Sighhh.
Thanks JN. I really hope you find something that works for you. If you don’t, and I’m not being funny here, in another couple years when and if you find nothing is working, you might as well go fast and go raw. @ that point, you will literally feel you have nothing left as far as options. And, you may actually surprise yourself and then start kicking yourself for not listening to some nut on the internet telling you to starve yourself and then eat like a chimp.
Good luck.
Indeed,
Cdnuts, Bear in mind that you are still hanging around here, and clearly you are not better totally. Is this correct? (Not wanting to sound like a hater).
Please, I want to get the conversation back to the Drostanolone choice, for everyone else’s benefit. I invite further comments from Awol.
I should be receiving further Drostanolone Enanthate in powder form from China, in addition to a BB source. I will be sending the powder to be made in a compound pharmacy in Sydney.
I would be happy with a life of TRT, Drostanolone enanthate (of high quality) and some peace.
My soul has been ripped apart these last 9 years. I need a life. I said to my girlfriend earlier that when you’re a child, you can always go to your Mum or Dad and they’ll make things better.
I wish there was someone here to help me, to give me answers, to comfort me and to tell me that everything is going to be ok.
Take care chaps. Hopefully I’ll be a new man in a week’s time. If Drostanolone works, I will be.
JN
No, you are right, I am not better “totally.” But I keep getting better and better and improving by leaps and bounds because of my actions. I’m just trying to share the wealth. A few people have taken my advice and are healing as well. I guess you could say I come here out of force of habit but also with the desire to share what is working for me so that others don’t have to suffer needlessly. We’ve all had our souls ripped out, believe me. I’m just getting mine put back in, one piece at a time.
Sorry for hijacking your thread…
Cdnuts, I wasnt aware that you were recovering…??
Is there a thread link you can give to the forum that explains the nuts and bolts of what you are doing and the outcome?
I have my suspicions that the liver plays a role in our problems. Not permanent or irriversible liver damage as in chirosis, but that our bodys have been overwhelmed by toxins from too much estrogen and possibly the drug itself. There could also be gut issues (as in dysbosis-need antibiotics) that put further pressure on the liver.
This is why I think that some men note improvement with a raw food diet. You are essentially detoxifying your liver and as a result, your body. I wouldnt be surprised if we kept estrogen in check via arimdex that we couldnt get rid of all the estrogen and then allow our body to reach homeostasis by allowing the liver to function properly which would improve adrenal and thyroid function also. Of note, a sloppy liver wont show up on a blood test. There are Liver Detxification Profiles you can get done in Australia.
JN, this may be another avenue you may want to consider - LDP. The test is cheap and shows your phase 1 and phase 2 detoxification and the interealionship between the two (one effects the other) - not the state of the liver but how it FUNCTIONS. Once you know how it functions you treat any abnormality…for instance a lot of people’s phase 1 is faster than phase 2 etc…so you can then slow down phase 1 and increase phase 2.
Cdnuts this is a very important question…How is libido?..the truth.
Thanks.