JN's story -- former 2001 Yahoo Group Member

sufferer2001recovered2009 - As I posted in the theories thread I am very interested in trying once a week high dose dht. I know that you have had some success with Proviron. If my endo does not support me in this, I will be forced to try it on my own. From your experience how much Proviron would be considered a high dose for this? Have you tried Andractim gel, and if you have how do you apply it, and what do you think would be a high dose? Would either of these work to get the supraphysical levels suggested by anonamous in his thread:
propeciahelp.com/forum/viewt … 62&start=0

He recommends sublingual, are your familiar with that type of DHT? Sorry to hit you with all these questions, but I know you are a doctor and have some experience with DHT.

Two tablets (50mg) Proviron after wake up. Under the tongue (sublingual). Andractim has a very bad transdermal effect. You need 20-30gr andractim a day to have high dose.

SOME IMPORTANT RESEARCH ON 3 ADIOL G. Mainly for my reference.

  1. Androstanediol glucuronide production in human liver, prostate, and skin. Evidence for the importance of the liver in 5 alpha-reduced androgen metabolism.
    Rittmaster RS, Zwicker H, Thompson DL, Konok G, Norman RW.
    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1993 Apr;76(4):977-82.
    PMID: 8473413 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Related articles

  2. Is 3 alpha, 17 beta-androstanediol-glucuronide a diagnostic marker in women with androgenic manifestations?
    Vogt C, Dericks-Tan JS, Kuhl H, Taubert HD.
    Gynecol Endocrinol. 1992 Jun;6(2):85-90.
    PMID: 1386956 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Related articles

  3. Preferential metabolism of dihydrotestosterone to androstanediol 17-glucuronide in rat prostate.
    Rittmaster RS, Leopold CA, Thompson DL.
    Endocrinology. 1988 Dec;123(6):2788-92.
    PMID: 3143543 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

  4. Correlation of serum 3 alpha-androstanediol glucuronide with acne and chest hair density in men.
    Lookingbill DP, Egan N, Santen RJ, Demers LM.
    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1988 Nov;67(5):986-91.
    PMID: 2972739 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Related articles

  5. Androstanediol glucuronide isomers in normal men and women and in men infused with labeled dihydrotestosterone.
    Rittmaster RS, Thompson DL, Listwak S, Loriaux DL.
    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1988 Jan;66(1):212-6.
    PMID: 3335605 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Related articles

  6. Contribution of plasma androstenedione to 5 alpha-androstanediol glucuronide in women with idiopathic hirsutism.
    Gompel A, Wright F, Kuttenn F, Mauvais-Jarvis P.
    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1986 Feb;62(2):441-4.
    PMID: 3941165 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Related articles

  7. Pharmacol Biochem Behav. 2002 Dec;74(1):119-27.
    The nucleus accumbens as a site of action for rewarding properties of testosterone and its 5alpha-reduced metabolites.
    Frye CA, Rhodes ME, Rosellini R, Svare B.
    Department of Psychology, The University at Albany-SUNY, Albany, NY 12222, USA. cafrye@cnsunix.albany.edu

  8. Brain Res Brain Res Rev. 2001 Nov;37(1-3):162-71.
    The testosterone metabolite and neurosteroid 3alpha-androstanediol may mediate the effects of testosterone on conditioned place preference.
    Rosellini RA, Svare BB, Rhodes ME, Frye CA.
    Department of Psychology, The University at Albany - SUNY, 1400 Washington Avenue, Albany, NY 12222, USA. rar93@cas.albany.edu

  9. Psychoneuroendocrinology. 2005 Jun;30(5):418-30. Epub 2005 Jan 25.
    Testosterone’s anti-anxiety and analgesic effects may be due in part to actions of its 5alpha-reduced metabolites in the hippocampus.
    Edinger KL, Frye CA.
    Department of Psychology, The University at Albany-SUNY, 1400 Washington Avenue, Albany, NY 12222, USA.

JN

I don’t understand the point of ‘once a week DHT’.

Bear in mind you have to be on TRT first as DHT suppresses endogenous T levels.

I posted Andractrim trial on this Recoveries thread! You need only click a button to see what dose of Andractim raises 3 Adiol G to supraphysiological. I have not tried Andractim but I would be confident in its use, given being on TRT already.

What’s the point of getting DHT ‘supraphysiological’? Surely you would use 3 Adiol G (the metabolite of DHT) as the biochemical marker of treatment, given that serum DHT level is ‘IRRELEVANT’. (as you should have read). I would advise 3 Adiol G at the upper limit of normal, as I would for T. In accordance with the basic protocol for ALL HRT therapy.

JN

andrologyjournal.org/cgi/rep … /4/259.pdf

Merck’s 1989 study into 5 AR inhibitor and Adiol G levels. Interesting.

JN

JN,

I don’t understand…You said you need to be on TRT in order to use Proviron, Masteron, or Andracitim Gel.

My question is…is it possible to be on clomoid or tamoxifen while being on this treatment to maintain a healthy HPTA.

Also, I’m doing some reading on some websites, and these websites suggest a injection like masteron mildly suppresses the HPTA.

Please let me know what you think about clomid/tamoxifen.

Well, what do you mean by ‘healthy HPTA’? By using TRT, you are effectively overriding your HPTA.

Why would you take Clomid as part of your regime? Clomid is designed to upregulate the pituitary gland in cases of low LH/FSH hypogonadism but nothing more.

Tamoxifen is an oestrogen blocker which should be used if T is supraphysiological to reduce the effects of E2.

I would say that Masteron significantly lowers T levels. You simply cannot be on Masteron and NOT take TRT, to be fair. Not that I know the exactities here, but that is my supposition.

My thoughts re, Clomid. If one has low T due to low LH/FSH then Clomid will restore a healthy HPTA. But it seems that fin sufferers have a different problem in addition; that of low 3 Adiol G. (Which is completely separate from HPTA issues). Clomid should NEVER be taken longterm (visual side effects to name one, E2 rise to name another).

I think Arimidex is better than Tamoxifen. Tamoxifen can be used to raise T levels (indirect effect on pituitary LH/FSH) but is NOT a proper or longterm method to restore T.

I’m not sure I understand your questions Anonn1. Are you looking to take shortcuts and not go on TRT or something, whilst taking Masteron?

I would advise TRT and Masteron. No fucking about.

JN

Ya Im looking for shortcuts man…I just dont want to be on TRT for rest of my life…if I HAVE to, so then be it…but I prefer not to at this age if I can get around it…

We will get better…

You can’t get around it.

JN

JN, it would be useful for you to read Andre Guay’s studies on long term clomiphene usage to combat secondary hypogonadism. There is a link within the later pages of the My Recovery Via Clomid thread. Guay has now followed a group of over 100 men for over 5 years now. The body builder types always overdo the dosage based on what women take for fertility (50 to 100 mg for 5 days).

The key to clomiphene use is to find the right low dose, take it only intermittently (two or three days/week), and monitor E as well as T. One E starts to rise significantly you’ve overdone it.

Have only been on this site for a year, but I would wager over 50% of post fin sufferers have secondary hyongonadism like physiology.Low T = low adiol-G as the former is the substrate for the later.

kazman

Oh ok. Maybe I should. I remember Andre Guay contributing to our forum in 2003.

That said, I think I’m on TRT and am going to stick with it. I also got floaters from Clomid use, albeit at the higher dosage.

JN

Hi Kazman

are you doing clomid regiment again? I wish I could do some clomid treatement with low dose but again I can not get it in Canada.

Im a long time member of this forum who is still trying to find the answer to this problem, and I believe my opinion is an educated one based on the fact that I have lived and breathed this condition for so long and I have talked to many, many doctors, bodybuilders and fellow sufferers of both finasteride issues and that of general endocrine dysfunction. Nothing that ive read here has caught my eye as much as JN’s post on Masteron and supplementing DHT.

The main point of my post is to try and to try and persuade you guys out there to keep it simple. While its good to think outside the box, we cannot deny that the one thing we all have in common is that we took a 5ar inhibitor. Its as simple as that. What does a 5ar inhibitor do? It inhibits 5ar. So then, our problem must be in the area of 5ar.

Why do we not treat or suspect 5ar as the root cause of our problems if it were this easy? Because 5ar is hard to measure accurately in the body and it is also hard find medications to treat it. Treating 5ar deficiency (if this is what it is) is generally outside of normal practice for most doctors and therefore is yet another hurdle and another reason for us to take a short cut by trying to blame these problems on other things.

Ive read all kinds of theorys for the possible cause of this horrid syndrome we are suffereing from. Some good, some bad, some rediculous. After reading them all I have come to the conclusion that yes, I think we are suffering from at least one or a few of these health problems: adrenal issues, dhea issues, possibly thyroid, depression, low testosterone, high estrogen and low DHT to name a few and a some of us took SSRI’s too. I am sure when you almost completely block DHT activity in a mans body all of these things will be affected, that is a no brainer.

But there is one thing that has sparked a response to almost everyone who tried it both directly and indirectly and that is DHT supplementation. This is somthing that simply cannot be ignored IMO. I truely beleive the answer (I have always beleived it IS one main thing we are missing) is some form of DHT supplementation or finding a way or restarting DHT production in the body. Think about it - so many of us have tried all mannor of drugs, herbs tonics, diets etc and none of them even budge our symptoms. But we have a handfull of guys who have had success either via direct DHT supplementation or indirectly via TRT.

Also I refer back to the annymous poster who claimed he was a doctor. He also suggested supplementing with high doses of DHT. Someone on this forum called him out as being a pharmacuticle doctor trying to “give us a hint”. There is a lot of reason to suspect this IMO and even if he isnt, he is still a doctor and one who has added a lot of reasearch to his own knowledge and experience as a doctor.

I put it to you all - why not exhaust the most obvious culprit before we waste valuable time, money and resources on some other theory? I really think JN is a breath of fresh air to these forums and I for one think he is dead right. We must think logically and keep our heads screwed on and work at this together. If we keep focused, im sure a positive outcome will come.

Answer me this: WHO’S HAIR IS FALLING OUT?..

Not mine. And what causes hair to fall out?

D–H--T

Good one J89. Keep it simple is always the golden rule!

Mine is. The last 12months I’ve been losing alot up there, been thinking of this as a good sign but can’t say it helped my libido. 3 years post finasteride.
Secondly, as far as I am aware, scientists still don’t know exactly what causes MPB.

You would be the exception to the rule then Manda, from what I have read on this forum.

While doctors may not know the exact cause of MPB, there is no denying that DHT plays a pivotal role in same. To try and accomodate all of the unknowns of MPB is just adding more confusion to this problem.

History has shown that there is a direct link between high DHT levels in the scalp and MPB. Therefore the overwhelming majority of Finasteride sufferers are probably not producing DHT.

I really think we need to “generalise” a bit here even if at the start, it is at the expense of a few who dont fit the hallmark symptoms of this problem. The symtoms like hair not falling out, loss of libido, erectile dysfunction, etc…

And while your hair is falling out Manda, this doesnt mean that DHT is not your problem also. You may be producing it in your skin, but not in your system. Also the hair fall could be from some other reason.

Next to all the shit my hair is also falling out. I think I would still be happy at least, if I could get hair in exchange.

Thanks for the thoughts J89. I haven’t tried the dht route yet, but have an order in for Andractim gel, and Proviron. Hopefully they will arrive soon and I will give them a try. I think you are right that our main sexual problem is dht. I also believe that fin screwed up our pituitary like the anonomous doctor speculated. Since some people have recovered from this (usually for reasons that others cannot replicate), I still believe that our situation is not necessarily permanent.

Here is a link to the site that I ordered the Proviron from. They accept PayPal. I haven’t received my order yet so can’t really vouch for them yet, but they have been responsive to my e-mails.
anabolics-steroid.net/index.php?cPath=26

Just to update everyone.

I’m receiving Drostanolone this weekend. Finally. It’s costing 3500 for 10 month supply from a BB contact.

J89, being a physician myself, I look at things clinically. This often means ‘simply’. I have wanted one thing over the last 9 years; to get better. There are massive limitations to modern medicine. If this thing is a problem with receptors, we’re fucked. If sufferers want to sit back and eat raw fruit and do yoga to get better, I think they’re fucked. If they’re waiting for gene therapy for 5 AR 2 enzyme induction, they’re going to wait for a lifetime.

I’m hoping we can recovery simply by hormone ‘replacement’.

JN

Please keep us posted JN…

JN, whats your thoughts on this italian guy who recovered with 1/2mg of arimdex twice a week?

Makes sense?

I think that if you have been off finasteride with no sign of improvement for a LONG time then you should consider HRT, but not until you have exhausted ways for your body to recover naturally through exercise, supplements and a healthy diet. You can scoff at that if you want but it is what i believe. You’ve said it yourself that modern medicine doesn’t have all the answers.

I think a lot of people do get better with time, more than what the recoveries section would lead you to believe because i think a lot of people who recover don’t bother to come back and tell their story. because, either they don’t know exactly how they got better (i.e. they don’t know the secret solution) and so feel they don’t really have anything valuable to contribute, or they just want to move on and forget about this whole thing.

I understand that for some people on this forum, HRT may be the best or only choice. The point i am getting at though is it should not be your first choice.