JN's story -- former 2001 Yahoo Group Member

General Discussion
#421

Right, update time. I am currently consulting with the best doctor I have ever seen. Dr Julie Bradford, Brisbane, Australia. Things are only going to get better and I’m excited. I had an excellent consultation with her today which was intellectually intense. She is wonderfully open minded, listens beautifully, trusts me and works with me.

My current status is this

meds:

T 30mg IM twice a week
HCG 150iu 3 times a week
Arimidex 1 mg (one tablet in divided doses per week
High dose fish oil (maybe 12 per day)
Vitamin D 4000iu per day
slow release T3 250 mcg per day (yes, a high dose)

I am quite happy, no signs of depression. Still suffering low body temperatures; 35.9C max where normal max is 37.1C. Feel more tired than I should do after a shift at work. Erections are full and penis is thick and big and reasonably easy to obtain but I have zero libido (and this has reduced over the time I have used and increased T3). Still not a full return of acne or sweating. Mood very stable and may I say my mood is much better with a HIGH dose of fish oil. The stuff seems wonderful to me.

Here are my latest blood results: (the more relevant ones)

Vit D 246. (50 to 250)
PSA 0.56 (0.20 to 2.1)
RBC Magnesium 1.58 (1.4 to 2.25)
RBC zinc 212 (145 to 245)

Reverse T3 150ish (from what I remember her saying today) range is 140 to 540.
didn’t get my T3 result or T4 result but I should have done

IGF-1 23 (15 to 64)

Saliva cortisol 13.3 (6 to 42). Very interesting considering ALL previous serum cortisol for years has been high. Maybe T3 treatment has suppressed my adrenal but…
saliva DHEA 26 (5 to 30) a very healthy level

Plan

  1. Replace slow release T3 with normal T3. The slow release T3 in Australia is notoriously shit. I will obtain T3 from an overseas pharmacy as TERTROXIN, which, as I have read, is very effective. I will take T3 4 times a day and titrate the dose to my body temperatures and how I feel. She is being wonderully flexible with this and I am very thankful for her decision to trust me.

  2. She gave me a prescription for T4, which I asked for. 50mcg per day. Several chaps here have mentioned adding in T4 to reduce my SHBG. Many chaps taking T3 notice penile issues due to a slow rise in SHBG. This is usually remedied by supplementing with T4 (which reduces SHBG), as clearly T4 is reduced to very low levels on T3-only treatment. I have nothad my SHBG measured on my high dose of T3, but one could possibly assume it has risen from it’s value of high mid range, before T3 treatment.

  3. She has commenced Human Growth Hormone treatment at 1 unit per day!!! Brilliant. I seriously loved this stuff when I took it in 2009. It increased my stamina and mood massively. She has started this on the basis of low IGF 1 values. Whatever, I love it. I will probably start using it in a month or so.

  4. She told me to supplement with zinc. Thankfully a member of this forum (?Tim from New Zealand) was recommending a formulation of zinc (?pico-something). I will research this and acquire it.

  5. Vitamin B supplements.

  6. I am eating an increasingly healthy diet. Very high in vegetables. I juice vegetables and fruit everyday.

  7. She recommended light first thing in the morning to increase my cortisol levels as I have a degree of ‘maladaption’ (high melatonin, but low cortisol).

My thoughts on my treatment.

I genuinely believe that the above changes will make me virtually symptom free, and I am hoping this will constitute a full recovery! Clearly I am replacing all hormones that could possibly be replaced. Maybe this is necessary for a full recovery? I realise that this may dismay some of you chaps who are hoping to make a more natural recovery, avoid needles, avoid financial costs, and avoid hassle etc, but this does not dismay me at all. Luckily I am able to afford the above treatment. I have always had a burning urge to extract every ounce of pleasure and joy out of life, to reach my full potential and really ‘go for it’. I hope the above regimen will allow me to do this.

Best of luck to you guys. I’ll update you soon, and I’ll keep logging in to learn more from everyone else…

JN

#422

Unfortunately, that’s part of why I didn’t think of that as a recovery. Glad you made big progress in the other areas though.

I’m sorry if I was misunderstood as seeming disrepectful of the sufferers. That was not the case. In fact I was, that’s true, a little upset about the board configuration, which pushes everyone to post in the recovery section as soon as there is some improvement. (I could have posted myself when I was following the Testosterone recovery stack from Primordial Performance last July. However, The end of August was absolutely awful.) This is utter depressing for someone who has been suffering since 18 month to read a lot of recovery stories, just to jump on the last post of those same recovery threads and see the people who got “recovered” are in fact coming back with the same typical symptoms as ever.

I think a reorganization could be great, with the definitive recoveries in the recovery section, and the others in the member stories, after all, there are some people improving in the member stories too, but they have not posted in the recovery section.

#423

Let’s try and make this productive. The reality of the situation is that finasteride ruined the hormonal system of a minority of men. Us young chaps tended to notice it more than, say, older men, as changes would have been more dramatic.

There is not a one size fits all approach to this, but it looks increasingly likely that a full recovery can only be attained with replacement/optimisation of all hormones manufactured by way of anterior pituitary gland. It appears that the main player in our suffering is thyroid/adrenal issues.

If you have concerns about the set up of this forum, which is run fantastically well by Mew, then pm him directly. Just don’t hijack this thread with your unproductive one line thoughts as you don’t have a reputation here, particularly after 19 posts.

This is a useful thread for many people, so let’s keep it on track. I welcome constructive criticism and suggestions that pertain to my treatment, as I know they apply to other chap’s treatment. Let’s go…

JN

#424

ey dawg

good stuff man great it’s going better! good choice this doctor, stick with it

t4 adding in will be a good idea

cortisol does look low and i would try some t4 first before going on hydrocortisone or medrol, if this doesn’t work you need adrenal hormones

zinc picolinate is the stuff you want 50 mg before bed, best version of zinc in my book

remember, if you add in GH, you will need more cortisol to support you, seeing you are low i would keep this in the back of your mind

if you want some vitamin supp, fatigued to fantastic energy revitalization system seems to be good stuff

here some music to keep you sane:

youtube.com/watch?v=TFspshhFfJE

good luck mate keep us posted (i am testdriving GH at the moment, did the proviron and wasn’t working for me, so hopefully this will help)

#425

Hey JN.

I’m happy that you’re making progress but i am worried. You are taking virtually every hormone you can get your hands on. Is this sensible?

Surely it would only lead to lifelong reliance on them? To me it seems like firing a shotgun at your body and hoping you hit the problem. Couldn’t you potentially cause more problems? I’m just a little worried about you. You say great things and then a post or two later make out it wasn’t as great as you thought …e.g. your libido.

If you think its a thyroid/adrenal issue why not cut the testosterone? And HCG? And why the GH?

Sorry for seeming a little accusatory. I’m just trying to understand the thinking behind it.

#426

Also if you find out your TFT results please post. You are taking a very high dose of T3 and you know the risks of thyrotoxicosis.

Are you really not feeling hyperthyroid in any way? Weight loss?

#427

Other fat soulble vitamins A, E, K jn. Get her to test those.

#428

Hi JN,

I have several questions about what you’re doing at present… I too am on T3 only for having high rT3 (since mid-august), and am also having far better results than anything else I’ve tried alone (several variations of TRT, Andractim, antidepressants, clomiphene etc.)

  1. Why such a low dose of testosterone? … have you got numbers that justify 60 mg/ week? It’s my understanding that non post-fin sufferers generally do best with blood levels in the upper quartile of the normal range, which for most people means about 100 mg per week, plus some hcg.

  2. Why 250 mcg of T3? From most estimates that I’ve read, that’s really high. On my protocol, I increased the dose by 25 mcg every 4 or 5 days and ended up with hyper symptoms at about 175 mcg per day of normal release T3, and then dropped back to 100 mcg, which still produced hyper symptoms, then 87.5 which did the same, followed by a week at 62.5 mcg which dropped me back to hypo symptoms, and am now on 75 mcg. I guess it’s theoretically possible that you need this much, but what is you or your doctors justification for 1) high dose T3 and 2) specifically, this dose of 250 mcg.

  3. Why add in T4 now? You are already modulating several different hormones at once, which is going to make sorting out what’s what difficult enough, but more importantly, if your body is still making rT3 out of whatever T4 is already in your body, why would you add more fuel for rT3 if rT3 is your problem? I understand the increase in SHBG due to T3 only may affect you, but you need to ascertain your current SHBG level before taking steps to correct a problem you may not even have.

  4. Why saliva testing instead of blood tests or even better, urine metabolite tests?

  5. You may be heading for adrenal trouble with such a high dose of T3- there are a couple of interesting threads on oral lipid matrix pregnenolone here which suggests that such a protocol could help (I currently take 150 mg per day in lieu of the hydrocortisone I was on):

musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14358&highlight=pituitary+study

musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15018

  1. Estrogen-- you mentioned being on 1 mg of Arimidex in divided doses-- divided how? Are you getting blood work, specifically the ultrasensitive/extraction method test for estradiol to monitor this? 1 mg could be too much, not enough, or just the right amount depending on a number of factors, particularly how much T you’re taking.

Incidentally, I seem to be having a very different reaction to aromatisation post T3 only as compared to when I was on armour and had high rT3. I was taking minute doses then-- like 1/16th of a mg divided over a week, and still having my E2 crash. Now, still on 125mg test enanthate 1x per week, I was having really noticable symptoms of high E2 on 0.25 mg arimidex EOD-- I’ve been on 0.5 mg EOD for about 10 days now and I’m starting to feel quite good in this respect. This could explain some of the worsening symptoms you experienced when on 50 mcg of T3/day, although that is pure speculation.

Anyone know anything about a relationship between T3 and E2???

#429

Proper hormone replacement involves balancing a number of different hormones, which generally means taking lots of stuff. This is not a bad thing! As far as ‘reliance,’ hormone modulation is for life-- why would you want to rely on your body to do it when your body is doing it wrong?!? So you have to poke yourself with the oocassional needle and take some pills regularly-- so fxxxing what???

I personally don’t understand the negative reaction that many people have to a lifelong protocol-- if it works, and you have really been feeling as bad as a lot of people on this board have, it’s a tiny price to pay for feeling good again. I’d be happy to inject myself 10 times a day and swallow several handfulls of pills a day if my health and well-being were restored…

#430

Source, please.

#431

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You seem to be simultaneously arguing for and against the existence of adrenal fatigue, and it doesn’t seem like you really know what you’re talking about…

“even mainstream medicine will take many many years to recognize and categorize…” makes it sound like ‘mainstream medicine’ knows something that ‘other types’ of medicine don’t… I think most of the people on this board have had experiences with ‘mainstream medicine’ that indicate that isn’t true, and in fact is the opposite of the truth.

#432

JN, I’m surprised because this most recent routine seems less focused than originally planned and fails to take into consideration what you previously posted to be the most likely cause of decrease in improvements while on T3, low cortisol.

  1. Where is the consistency to check for the T3 treatment? It doesn’t look like you got Free T3 or FT4 done and do not know the value of RT3 or the correct ratio. You’ve been shooting your T3 treatment through the roof but didn’t get these tested? Don’t forget, the purpose of supplementing with T3 is to STOP ALL T4 PRODUCTION BY THE THYROID BECAUSE YOUR BODY IS CONVERTING RT3 FROM T4. If you want more T4 in your system you simply back off the T3 some, you don’t supplement T4. In addition, you say high SHBG makes the penis not work, but then you say your’s does fine. If libido is your problem, why focus on SHBG?

  2. You’re pursuing growth hormone treatment rather than CORTISOL treatment, which is not consistent with RT3 treatment according to STTM and the other thyroid groups. You went from high cortisol to now a low level via saliva testing (I’m assuming it was only a single test in the morning). This is consistent with the effects of T3 supplementation in treatment of high RT3 levels after high levels of stress. YOU NEED CORTISOL TO MAKE T3 WORK PROPERLY AND INCREASE YOUR BODY TEMPERATURE. YOU NOW HAVE HIGH LEVELS OF T3, UNKOWN RATIOS OF RT3, AND LOW CORTISOL. With low cortisol your T3 cannot do it’s job and warm you up.

  3. You stopped supplemental DHT as you began T3 because you were feeling better. Then you start to feel worse. Why did you exclude DHT as a source of improvement? Have you tried supplementing it again?

  4. You are not replacing virtually every hormone that could be replaced. This is a gross misstatement. There are many more and you don’t know the interactions of the ones you’re already taking, unless you’re testing and not posting about it.

  5. If slow release T3 in Australia is shit and you’re hoping for another form of T3 to cure you, why did it work initially? You had great initial results while on it and then you started to taper off DHT and your cortisol production was stressed.

JN, I’m concerned. The human body is not meant to be fucked with as we’ve learned through fin. Instead of trying the simplest methods and least intervention you seem to have a bit of ADD and are jumping around. Why are you not trying all avenues and combinations of treatment before jumping to something else???

Why haven’t you tried supplementing DHT again after tapering off or tried cortisol before upping your T3 to an astronomical dose? And why would you supplement T4 instead of backing off T3 some to let your body convert it on it’s own? And why before trying these things would you jump back on growth hormone? You cannot say that your body’s production of T4 is impaired, as it was the primary reason you had high RT3 in the first place. And why would you pursue zinc when you have a high level already? Many of us have had a problem with zinc, and Tim has recently realized his body couldn’t process it either.

We have a saying in finance, PIGS GET SLAUGHTERED. With the thyroid/kidney connection you keep betting huge chunks of the farm on the cure but instead of checking all your bets you’re only checking 2/3s of them. Why would you bet more before you know if you’ve won?

Treatment like this takes time and patience. Are you really pursuing all options with the different treatments and giving them time to work? If so, great! But it certainly doesn’t seem so from your posts. To top it off, you also only seem to respond when someone either agrees strongly with you, in which case you applaud, or disagrees and you tell them to piss off. I’m not saying some people don’t deserve it, but fuck, it seems like erratic “us” against “them”, when in reality here we’re all “us”. Everyone just wants to get better and in some cases we’re loaded with female or just fucked up hormones, like we’re all on our periods. We’ve got to try and focus on rational scientific thought here, which means exploring all possibilities, not exploring half of a possibility and moving on.

#433

cumkwakka…thanks for your excellent reply and good luck with your GH attempt. I’ve noted some of your comments. That youtube link needs some work, however. Try this one on for size. youtube.com/watch?v=PfAWReBmxEs

19…I don’t need the testosterone or HCG, I agree. My T was always generally high. I am very settled on 60mg T per week and HCG, and don’t want to rock the boat in my situation. Maybe in a few years I may consider stopping it, but by that time I’ll be 35 years old and ‘in need of T optimisation’!

Also, get this. I just went to my endo appointment, and he stated my T3 was 43 on a range of 2 to 6. Yes, forty three. I don’t understand this. I have zero symptoms of hyperthyroidism. My pulse rate is 68 resting per minute. My body temps are low. I am clinically hypothyroid. May I just say that there is a big controversy over Australian compounded slow release T3, in that many people state it is ‘ineffective’. The packaging material that goes into making it slow release apparently prevents interaction at thyroid receptors. That is why I’ll be taking Tertroxin from an overseas pharmacy. (normal release T3 and most effective). I’m tempted to just ignore this T3 result, not because it is incoreect, but because it doesn’t correlate with my clinical symptoms.

Moreover, my current doc Dr Julie Bradford is happy to titrate T3 to temps and ‘how I feel’, and is adding in GH, so I’m excited I’ll be moving in the right direction.

Tim…thanks for your suggestion re, checking other fat soluble vitamins. I have written it down.

Growling scientist…see my reply…

60mg T takes me to the top of normal range T. In fact, slightly over. In fact, Dr Crisler stated I should be taking 40mg T per week, back in 2004, as it takes 40mg T per week to get me to top (when HCG is added).

Yes, 250mcg T3 seems crazily high. If you read the Australian forums, there is a BIG issue about the effectiveness of SR T3 compounded in this country. I feel I could swallow a big handful of T3 tabs and still not have any symptoms of hyperthyroidism. My endo doctor (not Dr Bradford), will only prescribe 100mcg per day, but I told him today that I increased the dose to 250mcg per day myself as I feel better at this dose.

I have noted the classic way you have been treated with T3. How are you feeling on this dose? Have your symptoms gone.

I understood it was common practice to add in T4 when one’s rT3 was noted to have returned to normal? I agree that I wished I had had SHBG checked at the high dose of 250mcg per day, but I didn’t, (due to endo’s inefficiency), but I think I know where I stand with my self medication, and I will add in 50mcg T4 per day. If I feel worse, I will stop or adjust it. From my reading, all people (men and women) feel better when T4 is added.
In addition, my SHBG always tends to be on the high side so I’m confident it will at least be even slightly higher on high dose T3.
I have not read too many reports of reverse T3 rising up again.

Dunno. Just what my anti aging doc uses.

I have no symptoms of adrenal fatigue. I fall asleep easily, sleep really well, don’t crave salt, don’t feel faint when standing…

I divide 1mg tablet into 4 pieces and take a piece pretty much every other day. My E2 on saliva was 25, which Dr Bradford stated as being too high for a man, so I may need to increase Arimidex more.

I

I’d like to work with you on this one. I am noticing I am taking more and more Arimidex with a higher dose of T3, and am indeed thinking of trying 0.5mg Arimidex every other day.

JN

#434

MartinM,

Dude, thanks for your excellent reply, for all the points you have made. You make some excellent points and I’d like to analyse them in more depth. I will just say one thing; the plan I have mentioned is the plan of my anti-aging doctor, not just me.

I am particularly interested in your comments re, cortisol.

To give your post the respect it deserves, I will reply to it tomorrow, as I have had a tiring day. I will go through your post with a fine toothcomb and fully analyse ratios etc. Thanks…

JN

#435

I only want to say, that I try this way too. I encreased the daily T3 dose slowly untill 100mcg/day and I have not felt any hyperthyriod symptom. So I decided to try dexamethason again, because I had success with this stuff once.
Now I feel some difference in my body. T3 seems to work with dexamethason and DHEA. I feel warm body and encreased metabolism. I lost body fat and I have morning and night erections. My sleep is better and mood is nice.+

To prevent high SHBG I ve added nettle root extract.

I will encrease T3 once again untill I feel a little bit hyperthyriod. Than I follow the rT3 Removment protocol, someone postet here (link).

JN, I would try some cortisol if I were you.

#436

Cytochrome,

I think you’re spot on.

#437

You have been recovered since 2009…but you havent? have i got that right?

#438

.

#439

solonjk,.

have you actually used hydrocortisol? If you have did you address dealing with adrenal glands before trying to repair thyroid or other problems.

I have not read of a single person on this forum that attempted to address adrenal gland problems first.

#440

Boston, you’re hitting on a key point here. A lot of what we do, the treatments we take, can be affected by very minute things in retrospect, like the order of treating certain things, such as cortisol before T3. I don’t know how JN tracks his treatments, but I suggested in a PM that he should be journaling and plotting and adjusting very slowly before ruling out any treatment. We should ALL be doing this, otherwise we forget where we’ve been and lose track of where we’re going.