It makes sense.
There may be hope yet. Doctor with MS cures herself through intense diet:
youtube.com/watch?v=KLjgBLwH3Wc
emphasis on:
- 9 cups (or 3 platefuls) of veggies per day (3 cups each of 3 categories: greens, sulfur-rich veggies, colored veggies)
- wild salmon, herring & grass fed beef (omega 3s)
- organ meats like liver, tongue, etc (minerals, vitamins, CoQ10)
- seaweed (iodine/selenium)
…to improve mitochondrial function, fuel myelin sheath regeneration, promote detoxification, etc, etc.
IF PFSers suffer from demyelination in specific areas (brain, sacrum) , and a person with MS (whose entire body was demyelinating) finds a path to recovery, there’s got to be hope.
Hello
My recent experiences have led me to this post and hopefully someone has some insight to share into my problem. It regards finasteride and possible neurological damage to the bodies overall nerve structure. Here I go, it is long, but from I have been reading I think I have a lot to offer.
I am a 21 year old male. Been on rogaine and finasteride for about 6-7 months, just stopped using both after reading the the possible (seemingly likely) side effects of finasteride to the nervous system. About a year ago I sustained an injury to my Spinal Accessory Nerve while I was doing pull ups. For a year now I suffer from chronic pain and muscle atrophy in my upper back. I got MRIs, CT scans, radiographies, acupuncture, chiropractors and everything with no one able to give me a precise diagnosis, until very recently, this past monday actually. I got a neurology test done and it was found that I pinched my Spinal Accessory nerve (SAN) and that my body had attempted to heal itself and has acheived about 70-80 percent neurological strength to my pre-injury days (The doctor threw me this number, after going through the test quite quickly, but he was certain of neurological damage caused by physical trauma).
Anyways I have started looking into the possible relation between finasetride and neurological damage. I used to lift and run and used to weight around 195 pounds, but since my injury I have been reduced to about 173 pounds (because I stopped lifting and eating as much, along with a transition towards cardio based excercise) with what I have also perceived as a general loss of virility and ability to recover. I do not believe I have any sexual side effects (everything is working fine), but I have acquired a number of injuries from skate board crashes, falls, running injuries that are/have taken unusually long to recover. Like I said I used to be a very strong individual, I could take a beating and I would always recover. Anyways the time of recovery (and lack of) has caused me surprise and worry, because Like I said I have never been one to be sidelined for very long.
The ONLY major change I can think of in the past year that I have made that is strong enough to have an effect on my body is the incorporation of finasteride and rogaine into my life. I started losing my hair around 17 and around December/January 2011 I began using both extensively. I have read through a good deal of this thread and the physical evidence seems to add up to me so much so that I decided to make an account and share my experience, which i normally never do. I don’t want to quote all the hard facts regarding the effects of Dht on the production of neurosteroids and overall neural protection, but if you have been following this thread then I am sure you believe that there is almost certainly a correlation.
My question is this: Could my injuries (most significantly my SAN injury) inability to recover be from the result of finasteride use???
Like I said:
I am 21 years old
6-7 months continued fina and rogaine use, as of yesterday I am stopping cold turkey
There appears to be some very intelligible people on the matter and I would really appreciate a response.
Sincerely,
Alexandre
P.S. A lot of my evidence is based off the author of Alex Miller. Here is the thread with his evidence, first post. Please take a look!
@furhog: i don’t know if you are familiar with the “hard flaccid” problem (if not, it’s a PFS side effect that involves the penis remaining “hard” in a flaccid state, usually accompanied by numbness), but waht we have is very similar to the people over at forum.hardflaccid.org/ and they pretty much have concluded that the problem has been linked to a straining of some muscle in the pelvic floor area. it’s just a similar situation that you also had an injury and they claim the problem is also a muscle injury.
have you or anyone gotten any physical therapy done at all for your specific injuries?
PT and all the training in the world cannot help muscles and nerves that simply - physiologically - do not respond properly. Breakdown from weight or endurance training causes exacerbated atrophy and weakness, not growth and additional strength.
If the muscles and nerves do not respond properly, how will PT help?
I am afraid martinM is right. When the nerves are not in a functional state they do not respond to physical therapy like they normally should. Instead, stimulation of those muscles (in my case the trapezius muscle) results in weakness, pain, and loss of mobility. So to answer your question Bryce I have done physical therapy for my injuries, but it was during a stage when my problems were still not properly diagnosed and as a result the physical therapy was inefficiently applied causing limited to no results. Now that my problem has finally been accurately recognized maybe there is a role that PT can play, but like martin said damaged nerves do not respond like a normal muscle. I am still trying to find if my extensive use of finasteride has something to do with my nerve’s recovery.
I looked at the site that you showed me bryce, but I am unsure how you mean to relate it. Can you maybe be more specific?
Thanks
Alexandre
Hi horndog
thanks for the input. I have not looked into what multiple sclerosis is precisely, but what I gather it is a dysfunction of the nerve system. Are you saying that the diet you posted is supposed to aid in the recovery of the nervous system? I have a nerve injury myself from physical trauma and at this point I am concluding that the best response to nerve recovery is a healthy diet with limited physical activity because excercise only seems to exacerbate current problems.
thanks
Alex
what you are talking about does not make sense. 5ARI damage is far more than just muscle straining. Gynocomastia, fat deposites, brain fog, fatigue are not because of pelvic floor muscle problems.
Hi bryce. I am unsure how you mean to relate the “hard flaccid” to my own neurological injury, could you elaborate? Like martin said muscles with nerve damage do not respond to physical activity the same way a normal muscle does. In fact physical stress to my injured muscle (the trapezius) does little for it because the nerves in it are not functioning correctly. For now all I can do is provide blood flow to the area until the nerves are fully healed. I could be wrong about this and I am going to see a doctor about it, but I will be sure to let you know.
My question still stands: does finasteride play a role in inhibiting the healing process of my damaged nerves?
In order to properly image grey matter for demyelination (e.g. within the posterior or anterior horns, etc.) you need a 7 Tesla MRI unit. There are only a handful of hospitals in the world that have such equipment. What you will find locally are 1 Tesla, and occasionally 2 Tesla machines, which are in fact useful for looking for microprolactilomas in the pituitary, But not imaging demyelination.
It would be useful to know the power of the MRI machine used, and Adiol-G level the PFSer in question, before ruling in or out Alex,Miller’s theory.
please note, forums.hard-flaccid.com and propeciahelp.com are treating two TOTALLY different problems since we all took a 5AR inhibitor and they did not, but the similarities may help us find out what is happening, and that is all my post is saying, in no way am i saying we have found a cure or this is what is going on, i’m just trying to connect the dots
basically what i am trying to get at is that at the hard-flaccid forum, many users report similar symptoms to us. things like penile numbness, lack of libido, “hard flaccid”, diet issues, need to be on an anti inflammatory diet to get some relief, and a few others.
they have SOLVED their problem by finding their problem to be caused by some type of muscle injury to the pelvic floor. also, i have read on there they have difficulty with squats or squats being a part of the problem (think the back) and consistently talk about how their bad posture (again the back) helped to lead to the problem they have. maybe somehow the back led to their pelvic floor problems?
i’m just simply connecting the dots by saying that okay, here’s someone that had an injury and there’s people over there that had an injury, so there could be something to this. moonman’s discussion on only certain spinal cord areas having a problem leads to another clue that maybe it has to do with some muscle problem in the spinal area.
and sps, yes i understand your post on the whole 5AR1 thing, but obviously there are other factors at play here if many people come off fin with no problems, while we all are stuck in this loop. i know there are many pathways or i dont know the scientific name for it, but the spine plays a part in allowing hormones to work or not work or other body functions.
the big kicker for me as well was that the ADMIN of forums.hard-flaccid.org took saw palmetto prior to his “hard flaccid” penis problems and his penis being broken.
although, we are discussing two different things, you really can’t ignore the similarities between the two… it can help us try to figure what is happening.
@furhog, i hope that explained what i was getting at. what type of PT did you do for your injury? and you or martin wouldn’t PT send blood flow to the area, thus allowing the nerves to faster heal? i was unaware of that factor. i was under the assumption that PT was awlays helpful with muscle injuries.
here’s what the admin of hard flaccid said regarding propecia side effects:
“All of the symptoms line up.”
How so? What about mental side effects, and gesticulating shrinkage. Reduced sperm moltility… And others that don’t fit.
@bryce54: Thanks for clearing that up. I see how you are connecting the dots and I would definitely agree it is fair to say that the issues we have been discussing are on some level related. It is very hard to tell however, so for now the best way to approach this is to find the quickest road to recovery.
I agree with what you say regarding PT. Just stopping any physical activity for the injury is a terrible way to go. It reduces blood flow to the muscle and increases the possibility of “freezing” where the muscle becomes stiff and sore from lack of use. So yes I still excercise my damaged limb, but through less intensive methods. I do variations of planks and static holds as well as carrying light weights in my arms. Like you were saying the idea is it brings blood to the injured area and allows the nerves to heal faster.
So yeah I would agree with what you were saying in that case, physical therapy is the way to go.
Bryce, this thread is about Finasteride and Neurological Damage as it pertains to Alex Miller’s theory, not about muscle injury. Keep this thread on topic. Your information is better suited to moonman1’s pelvic floor/perineum thread found here:
You’re assuming first that there is a muscle injury (instead of wastage and atrophy), second that only blood is needed to heal it, and third that PT is always helpful. This type of neurological damage isn’t due to injury but rather androgen and neursteroid deprivation. You’re trying to compare apples to oranges. The whole problem with many who have PFS is that the body doesn’t recover in the normal way that you suggest.
Furhog – I’m just relaying that the doctor in the video claims to have reversed her Multiple Sclerosis through targeting myelin regeneration. Watch the vid, it’s a just little over 15 minutes, and she explains her rationale for trying to heal with an extremely nutrient-dense diet consisting of all the cofactors you can’t find in vitamin/supplements. Perhaps this can be part of your plan. youtube.com/watch?v=KLjgBLwH3Wc
Here are some screenshots to entice you.
Isn’t there a growing brainstorming connection between Finasteride neurosteroid inhibition/Alex Miller’s theory --> PFS pudendal neuropathy diagnoses —> CPPS / Hard Flaccid for the sexual side of PFS, at least?
Here are a couple of excerpts from 2 different HF guys:
Now, that forum doesn’t necessarily believe finasteride is responsible, but I certainly do. Personally, among other things, I have the hallmarks of 9 years of proscar use: a ridiculously shrunken prostate, measured fibrosis (from androgen deprivation), suppressed DHT, etc, etc. Finasteride is definitely the injuring catalyst. But although the entry point into this mess can be from multiple sources, the way out may possibly be the same (at least for the sexual sides and perhaps to the extent that addressing those can provide relief for certain other issues). To be clear - we’re not talking about gyno and other obvious fin-induced hormonal disturbances and consequences here – just the penis/erectile/nerve conduction/sensitivity issue.
THIS video…is just AMAZING…very very GOOD.
Exceptional post. Thanks!
This ties together a lot of ideas I’ve been working on lately.
Yes. But there’s a difference in a muscle injury and nerve damage. Nerve damage can lead to ongoing muscle weakness, the muscle’s inability to repair itself, and tissue atrophy. Alex Miller’s theory point’s toward nerve damage, not a muscle injury. Bryce likens this to a strain of a muscle on the pelvic floor, which is what I was responding to in my post. Furhog also explained the complications of nerve damage. While there may have been muscle injury due to their weakened condition while on finasteride, nerve damage can prevent it from repairing itself. This is why PT doesn’t solve the problem.