Finasteride and Neurological Damage

[moonman1]

Muscle injury, inflammation, constrictions, TPs can entrap and inflame nerves…creating many of the same issues as myelination damage. Both can be reversible. But right now we can’t say for fact whether there is true damage or not, only some unknown source of inflammation.

[martinM]

@moonman1

Muscle injury, inflammation, constrictions, TPs can entrap and inflame nerves…creating many of the same issues as myelination damage. Both can be reversible. But right now we can’t say for fact whether there is true damage or not, only some unknown source of inflammation.

All of these muscle problems are explained by neuropathy. Practically speaking, nerve impairment explains the overall body problem, muscle injury doesn’t. Mew himself experienced muscle twitches in the body without noting any muscle injury.

There’s no need to overcomplicate this. Nerve impairment/damage explains the overall problem and different variations, muscle injury causing nerve entrapment doesn’t explain it as well or thoroughly because it requires injury (which could also involve the nerves as well as the muscles). Most if not all of us didn’t have a physical injury event.

If you’re going to explain the nerve problems through injury then you have to have an injury event…unless you are talking about androgen deprivation atrophying the muscles and constricting the nerves, in which case what you’re arguing is more logical, and we won’t determine an answer until MRI’s are done to determine if demylenation exists.

[moonman1]

@martinM

All of these muscle problems are explained by neuropathy. Practically speaking, nerve impairment explains the overall body problem, muscle injury doesn’t. Mew himself experienced muscle twitches in the body without noting any muscle injury.

There’s no need to overcomplicate this. Nerve impairment/damage explains the overall problem and different variations, muscle injury causing nerve entrapment doesn’t explain it as well or thoroughly because it requires injury (which could also involve the nerves as well as the muscles). Most if not all of us didn’t have a physical injury event.

If you’re going to explain the nerve problems through injury then you have to have an injury event…unless you are talking about androgen deprivation atrophying the muscles and constricting the nerves, in which case what you’re arguing is more logical, and we won’t determine an answer until MRI’s are done to determine if demylenation exists.

When you say nerve impairment, are you referring directly to demyelination? Or do you mean entrapment? Inflammation?

When speaking of a “muscular injury”, I do not mean that you tore a muscle or even strained it, you do not necessarily need an acute injury even. I am mainly eluding to the presence of inflammation and chronic contracted state. Allopreg. has STRONG mediations of picrotoxin-sensitive tonic currents. This in itself could cause possible inflammation of smooth muscles and constant contractions…which would explain why certain alpha blockers work so well with some of us. It is possible that through this and/or other pathways that nerves are also inflamed and impaired, but right now it seems like its all just theoretical speak…

[martinM]

mariovitali had an MRI done (1.5 Tesla) and his doctors identified signs of demylenation. He posted the info in the 5AR2 antibodies thread:

Read his posts on this here: viewtopic.php?p=61642#p61642

Thanks to Finasteride my brain is slowly being destroyed…and now i have the proof for all doctors to pay attention to what i say. I was diagnosed with an MRI scan as having signs of demyelination.

An MRI with contrast has shown demyelination in areas close to the pituitary. I need to have a second MRI which will look at the whole brain and possibly test for Multiple Sclerosis.

[blu]

I went to neurologist this morning to demylenation test. I said her i want to check anterior, posterior and lateral horn of my spinal chord. But she said there is no MRI test like this. The spinal chord begins at the head and extends to sacrum. I need to know which part of spinal chord must be scanned.

Anybody have an idea about this? What should i say to her?

[Xhorndog]

@kazman

In order to properly image grey matter for demyelination (e.g. within the posterior or anterior horns, etc.) you need a 7 Tesla MRI unit. There are only a handful of hospitals in the world that have such equipment. What you will find locally are 1 Tesla, and occasionally 2 Tesla machines, which are in fact useful for looking for microprolactilomas in the pituitary, But not imaging demyelination.

It would be useful to know the power of the MRI machine used, and Adiol-G level the PFSer in question, before ruling in or out Alex,Miller’s theory.

Kazman - can you further elaborate? There is a 7 Tesla machine at a nearby hospital, although it may damn well be impossible to get access to it for clinical (vs. research) use. (Unless anyone has tips on how to petition for such a use??).

Would a 3 Tesla MRI be useful? I’m concerned about the pelvic region, not brain demyelination so much, because other than on/off space-headedness, I don’t put myself in the PFS subcategory of persistent cognitive dysfunction patients. I’m most interested about examining the pudendal nerve area – is this what imaging the posterior or anterior horn areas accomplishes? Can someone help me with the verbiage, as I’m working with a doctor in real time to help make this happen. Greatly appreciated!

[996vtwin]

Guys I wanna say something. I definitely realized that I get these weird neurological twitches from time to time. I can definitely say that I never got them before and noticed them a few years ago. I did notice that since I stopped Propecia it has reduced but still get them a few times a month. I would get like a leg twitch. I have stopped taking Propecia since April 2012 and have been seriously suffering with lack of emotion and sex drive. These twitches I get feel very strange. Also I cant remember something someone told me seconds ago and have difficulty absorbing information. I do want to belive I might be getting slowly better but feel at this rate it could be years. I cannot even get a girl friend and I am actually not very bad looking at all. I just have no emotion. Could it be we have nerve damage and if so how can we fix it?

[Viking]

I found your article very interesting. If possible, I would like to know if there can be any side effects apart from “Memory fog” - that can be similar to the ones when using anabolic stereoids - like very irritable, short tempered, indifferent, becoming quite egoistic - etc.

[No1]

I have posted my extreme brain symptoms and darkened/dimmed vision here:

http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7358

[No1]

Worsening of Severe Brain symptoms and Dark/Dimmed Vision:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1636#p65114

I could not change my previous post, that link does not work anymore

[moonman1]

northwestern.edu/newscenter/ … m_campaign
[Size=4]
Big Multiple Sclerosis Breakthrough
Phase 1 trial safely resets patients’ immune systems, reduces attack on myelin protein

• See more at: northwestern.edu/newscenter/ … BJqqL.dpuf[/size]

[jorbie]

The question is - will this approach be applicable to other autoimmune diseases. And are we sure that PFS is autoimmune?

[robertino_totti]

This I found very interesting my fellow suffering friends…might there be a link here? Anyone with vision changes should check what I’m posting here out. I think possibly…If you can afford to get tested, do this asap. Especially, if you have dimmed altered vision.

Occular never damage from using boner drugs? I believe it. I personally feel propecia has changed our circulation and slowed our hearts down. That is just my opinion, which in turn, if we have an inherent disk to cup ration problem in the optic nerve, then I can see a connection here, while not discounting the myelin sheeth damage theories. I will check this out at the local eye quacks when I can.

“Blindness noted in men using impotence drugs” NBC News video report and article.
nbcnews.com/id/8004291/ns/he … byZcdgovUI

Doctors trying to cash in on this discovery and absolutely confirming this report and research find as valid:
richmondeye.com/news02_12.asp

[Finatruth]

Depleted levels of neurosteroids…yes as absolutely seems to affected our cardiovascular system.

[2ysoff]

About the topic just wondered if anybody has any clue about possible links to triggering Parkinson’s disease.
I read this article which connects DHT drop to Parkinson’s and I am slightly concerned.
I have improved since quitting 3.5 ys ago but my memory, focus and speech proficiencies which used to be my
trademark are still very intermittent (not mention erections only 75-80% back) . This article might be worth reading:

rush.edu/webapps/MEDREL/serv … se?id=1712

[Mario]

Hello All

tried Spray alloprganolone.
Good results on sleep, mood, dreams,
at the moment 3 months.

[jorbie]

What is the name of the allopregnanolone spray?

[bryce54]

myelin sheath glandular… extracts from bovine spinal cords. someone should seriously try this…

americasnutrition.com/sphingolin

[Belikewater]

@BadLuck

I’m beginning to think there is something to the theory that pfs may be autoimmune related. Several members have said that they have felt better after sexually after a night of drinking (youngbuck21 is one viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4913). Alcohol consumption can supress the immune system:

“Alcohol reduces immune activity, at least to some extent. And this is the main reason why alcohol consumption is associated with decreased severity of rheumatoid arthritis patients,” said James Maxwell, principal study author and a rheumatologist at the Rotherham Hospital, England, according to Health

medicmagic.net/can-alcohol-overc … #more-5589
Even though alcohol is known to be bad for libido, if pfs is autoimmune related some amount of alcohol seems to help some people.

When I take alcochol, my sexual “feelings” and my brain seems to be back to that sensation of really PLEASURE of having your dick inside a pussy you like. Of course the alcohol intake makes other thing worse. But for a few hours I feel Im alive again.

[Belikewater]

@Mew

Another post by Alex:

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I’m back here. Nobody managed to invalidate the theory yet…

Yesterday I had a talk with a professor for neuroendocrinology regarding this issue. It was only a short talk though. Interestingly enough, he knew right away about finasteride acting as a neurosteroid inhibitor in humans and was totally against using it for hair loss. I wanted to present him my findings but he didn’t have time and said: “You know, there are still many things not so clear about finasteride. I can’t help you anyway. You can come to visit me again in a month or two when I’ll have more time.” I wouldn’t count on him though.

@Fanjeera:

I am pretty convinced that 5AR2 is an enzyme acting as a whole, which means that if DHT is produced, then this implies that the neurosteroids are also produced. I think the functionality of the enzyme itself is not the main problem here but the effects of 5AR2-inhibiton over a longer time period is because the healing process is inhibited by finasteride. See, it’s like wounding your arm, then the body tries to heal itself in a natural way but you always scratch off the scab. If this is done for a long time then you’ll have a scar for life which never goes away. The same thing happend in the spinal cord but in a microscopic scale. That “scar” there won’t go away no matter how active 5AR2 is.

Another point: you can’t draw any real conclusions about 5AR2 activity based on hair loss. This is not how it works. Hair loss is just an indicator but not proof. But as I said, in my opinion 5AR2 activity is not the neurological problem I am talking about.

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Now: What should someone do who is permanently affected by finasteride use and has strong indicators that the problem is a neurological one (e.g. he has a normal hormonal balance but still suffers sexual dysfunction/cognitive dysfunction/MS-symptoms/forgetfulness)?

First of all, he should confirm that selective demyelination actually did take place. But this is not a normal demyelination test. In a normal test, mainly the white matter is tested but the white matter is not affected by finasteride, so the normal test might come back fine although in fact you aren’t fine.

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You need a more specific test for demyelination:

[Size=4]Tell the doctor/neurologist that you want to test for demyelination in the following grey matter regions of the spinal chord (this is done by MRI=Magnetic Resonance Imaging): Anterior horn, lateral horn and posterior horn. [/size]

Then, if demyelination occured, you can only hope that it is curable. This can’t be cured by medications though. Best thing to do is cure it by boosting neurosteroid production using a few supplements I list below. I have seen on propeciahelp.com that people are using progestrone but personally I don’t think this is a good idea because progesterone levels are not the problem here but damage to the neurons is. Your body produces enough progesterone when it needs it.

Now to the supplements which help with myelination:

[b]- One tea spoon of Magnesium Sulfate (MgSO4) dissolved in a cup of water. This substance has been shown to help with myelination. You can get it in a drugstore.

• Strong Antioxidants – en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioxidant
• Two tea spoons of Linseed Oil. This gives you an Omega-3 boost. [/b]

The Magnesium Sulfate is the most important one. There are several studies that show it helps with myelination after spinal cord injury. These studies have even shown that it helps with myelination in exactly thos parts of the spinal cord.

If you are interesting in such a study see www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour … 1&SRETRY=0 .

But be careful. It can have a negative effect on your kidney. Talk through this with your doctor before you use it.

Final note: If you are suffering from the damage described in this thread, it can take a long time until you eventually recover. Never ever give up! I wish all those suffering a successful recovery.

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Posted by Alex Miller

@Fanjeera:

You should better deduce facts about 5AR activity by measuring DHT in your blood rather than hair loss. As I said before, hair loss is just an indicator (and not a good one) but not proof.

@MikeYan1:

Magnesium sulfate has already been taken orally by humans. Now, I don’t say It doesn’t have side effects, it certainly has. This is why I said that one should first do a specific demyelination test, and after demyelination has been confirmed, he can consider using magnesium sulfate after consulting a doctor. I am not a doctor. Use it at your own risk. I just wanted to tell that it could help with recovering damaged nerves in the spinal cord as shown in numerous studies.

@4cryingoutloud:

Bryan gave you the answer. The point is that 5AR inhibitors are not a good method for reducing DHT since 5AR have other functions besides T->DHT conversion. Castration doesn’t inhibit 5AR.

@Everyone reading this:

People are sending me PMs about their side effects. Some of them really quit their job, lost their social life and are suffering from heavy brain fog. They claim it’s a result of 5AR inhibiting hair loss products. I’m telling this because you might want to weight this fact into the decision of whether you take finasteride for hair loss or not.

Now, I am done here for the good. I said what I wanted to say and hope it was of help to some people. I am considering moving to propeciahelp.com. You can expect me there once I have more spare time. But I want you to know that I am not a doctor and not the “messiah” (as MikeYan1 said) who is going to cure you -> I just give information about facts and try to help with my knowledge.

Anyone have tried the magnesium Sulfate intake? Im going to try with Magnesium pills and later with Magnesium Sulfate.

I wish I have my sex back…