We have looked through the forum, that would be the only instance and we don’t have his posts of when he took it unfortunately. Dose is extremely important, it took me a while to get it to work, so far all posts we have read here with masteron are consistent responses. Either they responded at first and then it shut them down (as they needed test with it) or it did nothing as their test was too low. If the masteron dose is not correct and the test dose is not correct it won’t work. I would like to know the doses Dannyfc used.
Also, it’s possible Dannyfc is so neuro estrogen dominance that masteron didn’t cut it, just a theory. Masteron does not kill estrogen, it displaces it and raises dht. As I mentioned, estrogen still becomes a problem but in a different way. It is conceivable that if someone were extremely estrogen dominant, masteron could only displace the the estrogen. Dht on the other hand would irreversibly inhibit the estrogen in a suicide manner. So pure dht would kill it off, doses are very important, proviron is too weak.
If he was on too much masteron it wouldn’t work, I took too much masteron and it shut down and just didn’t work, I believe I was injecting body builder standard doses. I had expected I would need much more, but in the end I required a much lower dose, but I had to find the perfect balance, then I was about to respond to test. It took 3 weeks for my libido to become crazy and my dick to become super sensitive, my muscles got huge over this time.
I felt estrogen rebound, but it didn’t affect me other than water retention and mood. We shall see with Moonman, a real life experiment is being conducted RQ. Do not worry, I will make sure you benifit from our research, as I said I’m available here. About Dannyfc, he would be the only instance we heard of, but I suspect his doses were off, can anyone ask what doses he used?
I intent to establish a baseline with Moonman and then add testosterone after a baseline is established. If the dose is too high of masteron, a system seems to deactivate it, that’s what occurred in me the first few times I tried it. More data is required, please let me know, in the meantime, the experiment with Moonman will continue as planned.
RQ, his original posts do not mention him using them together, im not calling him a liar, but he may be mistaken. I for example used aromasin while on masteron and thought I used it off of it before I got it. I checked the logs I keep and they contradicted what I remembered. If it’s not logged then we cannot discredit a very valid theory and experience that has only been shown to support what I say. We have to be careful not to discredit something very significant based on one post referencing his use and the original posts do not reflect that he used them together.
I am sorry, but I do not believe he used masteron with testosterone, no one here knew to use them together, and he did not post that he used them together, I see no evidence that he did. having tried many things and understandably being down about it, he may simply have thought he used them together, logs don’t reflect this.
Took 1mg Arimidex for the past few days. Felt a bit low, lethargic and had a shitty sleep last night, so skipped dosing today. For the second time since Arimidex trial began, I felt giddy a lot today. Laughing a lot, cracking jokes, much lighter mood. Usually I’m quite subdued. And this was on a shitty sleep the night prior. SO this is quite interesting.
Start Test Prop next week.
Good work tumble, remember not to overdo the arimidex, and keep the prop very low, 10mg a day.
RQ, if it were androgen insensitivity, why is it that consistently across the board lower levels of test work and higher levels don’t. We have consistently seen that guys who have got test working, responded with lowering of estrogen levels. I for example, I’ll inject test and respond like everyone else, if I take an AI, I respond, when my estrogen gets too high I stop responding. While there is varying levels of damage, I don’t believe anyone is androgen insensitive, low 5ar. Masteron may not be enough, in a severe case actual injectable dht may be required to actually kill the estrogen to get the guy back up and running. It may be required that large doses of actual dht must be injected to get into the brain and stop the neurosteroidal estrogen dominance. Masteron is not DHT, if it were I would not have quit it. So it is possible that in very severe cases, masteron just won’t cut it, androgen insensitivity doesn’t make sense based on the facts and data. My theories make sense and work, you responded to test rhe first time you injected it, you got estrogen dominant. If you were androgen insensitive, you would have never responded.
We will find out with Moonman in a month, but it may be that he requires actual dht too, we must follow this to the very end here and settle this debate once and for all, I intend to. It will provide invaluable data and research to our cause. If Dannyfc is willing, he could verify if he used test while on masteron and what doses. If he did use them (even though his logs don’t reflect that), we can offer him to use actual injectable dht. Break the neurosteroidal estrogen dominance cycle. Only high doses of dht are strong enough to do that in a theoretical situation where a guy is so estrogen dominant that blocking won’t work. That’s all masteron does is block, so before we rule anyone out to a lifetime of nothingness, let’s be responsible and exercise all logical options.
I sent a message to Dannyfc asking him if he used test on masteron and what doses, also asked if he would be willing to try pure dht. Remember that he could be so neuro estrogen dominant that the estrogen blocking effects of masteron are insufficient. High doses of dht with testosterone would theoretically break the cycle by irreversibly binding to estrogen in his brain and killing it off. I hope he agrees, it would answer the question here. I can’t see how this obvious neurosteroidal estrogen dominant syndrome could migrate to androgen insensitivity, studies support my theory. Real world evidence supports my theories, the only way it could be ruled out would be with pure dht in high enough doses with test.
If it fixes him it would change his life, he has nothing to lose otherwise, if it didn’t work it would provide valuable data to researchers and all of us here.
JQD, do you think we can get to the bottom of whether injecting DHT will or will not help in recovery? Meaning will it increase 5ar or not? It seems to me that this point is controversial and getting an answer to that would be very important.
CDnuts attributes much of his recovery to DHT cycles with Androhard. He spoke with Eric Potratz from Primordial Performance about that. Eric says science shows that DHT presence increases 5ar, see quote below. What do you think?
CDnuts spoke with Eric Potratz from Primordial Performance about Androhard cycle:
[i]No. We never spoke about Hcg because it wasn’t something I needed to worry about. My testicles were functioning fine. Always big and full towards the end of my healing. Our discussions were more about how actually having the precursors to DHT in your system, and then subsequently getting that stuff converted over to DHT, it would increase 5arII expression…as per his opinion.(he believe fin artificially down regulated 5arII expression) I was curious as to how an already reduced metabolite would have an effect on the enzyme that reduces it, but he assured me the science showed that it does in fact have an effect. He said it’s more of a “use it or lose it” type situation. He said just having the presence of the reduced hormone in your system would increase the enzymes that reduce it.
Honestly, it seemed backwards to me, but what the hell do I know? He’s the scientist. I had nothing to lose, took a gamble on the cycle, and never looked back.[/i]
That low, eh? That’s 70mg a week. Roughly the level of natural production in a normal man, on the high end… Is that how you arrived at that figure? Is 10mg a day enough to feel anything?
I think it will for me, if E is controlled. Time will tell. This is suppressive though, so once I start I plan to stay on for awhile and tinker. Either that, or go on, come off, do a restart, wait, go on again, experiment more etc.
An interesting question, I have given it thought, I mean, I would love to justify my injecting pure DHT long term, it would reverse all of this, that I know from personal experience (at least in my case and most everyone here). I do believe it would in all cases, but that we will have to find out through experimentation. I believe CDnuts protocol is nothing special, everyone has done it, and it hasn't cured anyone, but the concept is effective, constant stimulation of the 5AR system via PCT cycles. My protocols are designed to do that on a more aggressive scale using pharmaceutical grade hormones. I believe based on recovery stories I read, that hammering 5AR will lead to recovery.
When I was on Androhard it started to shut down my DHT, then I switched to Proviron which did the same, I noticed my 5AR function started to minimize, I then migrated to Masteron, and I had no 5AR function. Granted I was on lots of testosterone, and I was becoming estrogen dominant, but the Masteron was blocking the estrogen from hitting my muscles, penis and libido. Masteron was blocking estrogen so that my system could reduce test to DHT (which was then being suppressed by all the DHT use). It has taken me a month to recover from DHT use, then I went and took Aromasin, and it suppressed my DHT again. People here didn't believe me that Aromasin suppresses DHT, but it does, I gave it a second try and it did.
So I am not sure if DHT presence stimulates 5AR, in my experience it does the opposite, it is testosterone which stimulates 5AR, when I use DHT I get benefits with less 5AR. I can easily tell, I have overactive sebaceous glands, they are triggered only by the 5AR enzymes. I did this to myself to stop my oily skin, I just had no idea of the consequences. I am probably the only person here who was specifically targeting 5ar type 1 to stop oily skin. The more androgenic my protocols have become, the more sebum production I see, the more acne, the more 5AR. My protocols have been evolving to stimulate 5AR and reduce test to DHT. It is difficult to ascertain if I am recovering or my protocols are getting better. As I learn more and theorize more, my protocols have been becoming more and more effective at stimulating 5AR and starting the reduction of test to DHT.
It is my hope that this will speed up recovery, I have been at this for 6 months, since the minute I crashed I have been on hormones. People who are following me should keep that in mind when a protocol doesn't work in 1 or 2 weeks. I have gained a lot of muscle mass since starting suspension, it is living up to its name, but I think partly that is due to it dissipating so quickly and not leaving estrogen behind to continuously melt away muscle. I have been able to gain good muscle size with this stuff finally. I would love to believe that the presence of DHT increases the expression of 5AR, but remember, the rules are different in us. Due to this condition I have learned something researchers and scientists and doctors do not know, hair loss is not caused by DHT, it is caused by the 5AR enzymes and occurs at the conversion process, acne is not caused by DHT, it occurs the same way.
Just remember, the understanding of how things work is not the way people think, for example, Arimidex is not as effective as researchers thing, AI's are not. Now we know why some breast cancer is so difficult to treat, while women cannot experience these spikes in neurosteroidal estrogen, we can. We find that this estrogen rebounds in hours from even very potent AI's such as Letrozole, this explains perhaps why some cancer is so hard to treat. The estrogen would only show up in a spinal tap of cerebral fluid using a spectrometer to measure it. Perhaps in a normal guy the presence of DHT would increase 5AR expression, but I have seen no such evidence in our case.
It is worth experimenting with, perhaps I will have Moonman use a lot of DHT first alone, and see if he has any 5AR signs, I doubt he will though. It seemed to me that DHT killed estrogen and allowed test to convert to DHT, that would be the only 5ar expression increase, but it also starts suppressing our DHT. In our condition it takes a month to recover DHT after DHT use (perhaps longer), I do agree with the "use it or lose it" concept. I believe though, that our "use it," has to be hitting our system with androgenic testosterone protocols designed to induce DHT via 5ar. This is why I chose test propionate and suspension, they have the highest side effect profiles of any forms of testosterone, so we are continuously stimulating our system. Just because some guys have not responded in 2 weeks is absolutely meaningless and laughable to conclude it means nothing.
People should be on this protocol for at least 3 months before they ascertain that they are not responding, and that is triggering our system to induce 5ar and dht. Perhaps the presence of DHT in a normal guy would increase expression of 5ar, but there are no conditions like this one. I am not sure that guy's theories or views are relevant, many have tried CDnuts protocols with no success. I do believe using those protocols is definitely better than doing nothing. However, just in this thread alone, we have had multiple reports of guys improving based on my theories of managing estrogen this way. I can't imagine how DHT would help us recover, in my experiences it would do the opposite, it would signal our system that we have enough DHT and there would be no signal to create more. My theory (as you probably know) is to lower estrogen, increase testosterone (with specific androgenic protocols). The idea is for our body to be able to detect low DHT and high test and normal estrogen, so that it will compensate by producing more 5AR and DHT.
This is all exhausting, and when I get ahold of DHT I would keep it incase I decided to take the nuclear option, will it help us get better? eh... I will tell you what, when I finally find a way to get pure DHT compounded by someone (from that Androstanolone raw steroid powder), if I go on it, I will try to rationalize it with some theories lol. To be serious, that is the easy way out, and all of us should have it available incase someone decides they want to end their life, that is not necessary when going on illegal steroids is an option to reverse this. No I haven't proven it yet for everyone, but for most people I know for sure it will work. I am trying to be more scientific here and less charismatic, but it is something I have often thought about, your comments. I think we could conduct another experiment if someone wishes to join the program, we can find this out, we will put someone on high doses of DHT and see what happens. I have tried higher doses, only to be hit with massive estrogen attacks that took ridiculous amounts of AI's to counter. These doses were not just what I came up with, but ihatepropecia seemed to have independently arrived at the same doses as I have. The higher the test, the less we respond as estrogen start to shut everything down, trust me, keep it low. You will feel plenty, you can always increase in time, but if you run into it with high doses, you will just feel shitty, and not feel anything good.
Oh I would love to go and inject 160mg of test enanthate or so (like I used to pre pfs and early pfs days), but I have found this is the way I have got the most consistent and effective response.just for information,
there was someone on immortalhair called steven_tyler that had side effects from propecia.i think he tried hcg and clomid and excercise, got his T up but still had bad sides
then he tried proviron and gradually increased the dosages and had (by his telling) amazing results. i saved the posts from him and also asked him about the experience in pm. sadly it seems he is no longer a member on that forum so i dont know how things have ultimately turned out for him
here:
first post:
I’m using 25mg of Proviron and feel amazing, my hair is strong, better texture and growing , my testicles slightly larger, decreased my BF, better skin (no oil)
second:
Bro I had all the symptoms after fi and today I am almost cured of all, send me PM to be able to speak better
his answer to me in pm:
fi will fuck with your hormones and deregulate androgens, after that you need to “normalize it” back to your body to produce Test, DHT and others hormones, Proviron is one of the best drugs that basically it is pure DHT, I started at a dose of 25 mg per day and increased over time for 100 mg, is amazing what it does to your body and your mind, bodyfat is going down, your testicles will return to normal size, better skin, no depression
Hey JQD,
You might be interested in this…
He suggests using naloxone to help prevent HPTA shutdown when using hormones. Thought it might be worth considering within one of your protocols.
A quick update:
Okay, its Day 3 from T shot. I believe this is typically the peek day. I stopped the cream for these last 3 days as to not over dose. I do not have any E2 symptoms yet. I have had a bump in energy over the past 2 days. My erectile function is good but sensation is still not great. Still flat feeling for the most part. So even though I can perform I am not excited like I should be. Aside from that all other issues remain. If improvements hold or remain flat on TRT I will try adding a DHT supplement to see if additional progress can be made.
are you using test suspension?
Just to confirm - yes I used masteron in conjunction to testosterone-propionate about 6 months ago.
To verify I will try again next week with a log + photo evidence. An order will be placed tonight, usually it arrives within 2 days but with Christmas it’s going to be longer. Let me know what doses you want to attempt.
I’m also willing to test out this other substance if someone can provide a source.
Other DHT derivatives that I have used: Winstrol, proviron, andractim, and “AndroHard” (5-alpha-androstan-17-one)
Danny, how did you respond on the winny? What were you dosing and stacking it with? Also, how long did you take it for? Thanks!
The outcome of this will be the turning point of this thread, good or bad. Good luck with the protocol.
Entropy, I plan to offer Dannyfc some guidance, but if masteron doesn’t work then it doesn’t mean much, not unless he tries actual dht androstanolone which we are all trying to acquire at this point. Look for a compound pharmacy in a country with liberal laws. We can have the androstanolone powder sent got them and mixed. I have a local guy with a compound pharmacy he sells shit out the back door of. A guy who sells for him is going to call me about having the androstanolone mixed. Maybe I can get him to start offering it and keep it in stock
Also I have realized test suspension may be so fucking potent 10mg every other day may be all I need. Today im skipping my dose, my muscles are harder than usual, in a normal guy this would be too little, but it’s working in me because of the estrogen problem. Less test means less estrogen to melt away my muscles, I woke up super hard, so 10mg every other day is what I’m going to try now after these results. It def is less steady than propionate, im breaking out less as the test hits hard, releases dht and then fades away. That’s what my plan was, so it’s low now and thus my body can handle it.
Couldn’t feel it. Had about thirty 50mg tabs. Took it daily then weekly.
My original motive to go on TRT was due to my elevated SHBG. I had high total testosterone but the SHBG made barely any of it available.
Winstrol suppresses SHBG heavily so I was convinced it
would cure me regardless of previous experiences. Unfortunately not.