Gelhead, not true, not true, I have had many guys sit around for months doing nothing about PFS thinking nothing can be done, only to improve on hormones. If I quit hormones I would lose all my muscle and libido and sexual function, synthetic DHT can allow a non responder to respond to testosterone. I understand you want us to stop our research and give up and go back to discussing who is going to kill themselves next and how evil Merck is, but this is an open forum, you can start your own thread, if this one disturbs you simply stop reading it. Perhaps you should call Dr Goldstein and tell him guys with PFS do not respond to hormones, and let Dr Jacobs know as well, they might be interested in hearing from you so that they can stop their programs.
UPDATE: I lowered my test suspension from 20mg to 10mg today, I am having a much better response, we will see how the week plays out, I now believe I was overdoing it, and the Aromasin was a horrible mistake. Muscle size has increased ( blood pumping up muscles bigger), mood, libido, the worksā¦ So I will be sticking with 10mg of suspension a day and seeing how it plays out over the next week or so.
im really happy to see that Tumbleweeds has responded so well to the armidex alone.
this gives me, all of us hope. This is a huge pillar in JQDs argument about how its all about estrogen and not receptors.
im starting to think that maybe, yes, receptors can change and maybe they did for us. But logic would dictate that we would merely have to to the opposite of finasteride by inducing androgens, and poof, problem solved. yet andogens donāt. so what gives.
the estrogen dominace theory. think of estrogen as the wall thatās blocking us. once we take it down or at least chisel a hole through it, we can be healed.
im just thinking that how could a drug that increase t and estrogen a little and lowers dht by 2/3ās and we r fucked.
sounds like estrogen to me.
I mean some guys get the gyno symptom and the only way to get that is through estrogen, not low t.
I dunno, just a thought
The Pfs study on neurosteroids confirms my theories, itās about finding the right balance of AI and testosterone, dr Jacobs was right about that. The only problem was that such a goal was not attainable with the drugs he was using, aromasin and cypionate are an impossible way to achieve that goal. For guys who simply donāt respond, there is masteron, and there are even better forms of dht, im about to disprove non response pretty soon. Moonman may be a non responder to test, we will see in a month, if he is, he already has masteron, and he will be going on it, that will prove my theory.
This has been proven before, JN concluded the very same thing as I did, he had success on masteron and test. JN probably never figured out what I did though about the emotional and water retention issues. Masteron works, enough to show guys this is reversible by giving back libido and muscles, itās the moon and water retention which declines as neuroesteroidal estrogen rises without enough AI or endogenous dht.
If it were pure injectable dht you would not need an AI, part of why this has been so tricky is there simply is no longer a pure dht injection available. The closest thing is Andractim which is too weak, however I found dht in powder form that can be purchased to make an injectable. I found one site with an injectable made. It would be nice is Awor would contact me, I could get him to respond with masteron and test together, thankfully I have Moonman. While I hope he responds to suspension, if he doesnāt, we have him covered.
Update: Iāve been taking Suspension since Thursday, and before that took Propionate for a week and heavy doses of Arimidex for a month. Bloodwork from before I began the injections apparently wonāt be back until after the holiday.
In terms of progress, I continue to feel nothing new. If thereās one change, itās that a slight initial uptick in sweating seems to have abated. Iāve also been tinkering with AI dosing. It seems that when I go very heavy, I lose morning erections, which return when I lighten up on the dosing. But no other symptoms seem to respond this directly to AI.
RQ, I have lowered my dose of suspension to 10mg, as 20mg was too much, I am having significant improvements. I have found I feel better about 12 hours after the 20mg dose, I am feeling as I feel then now, and am having an easier time controlling estrogen. Our fighting aside, I still want you to get better RQ, you should keep this up for a month. If nothing occurs in a few months, then you should go the Nuclear Option Route. MoonMan has a source for Masteron that is local, he has already ordered a bottle of Masteron Prop, there is always the possibility that some guys may have 5AR so suppressed that Masteron is the only option (for now).
With Moonman's help as the guinea pig, I will be able to develop a very stable and good Nuclear Option, I know a Nuclear Option works as I was on it for a while, and as you know was temped to go back to Masteron often. Since you responded to Cypionate the first time, I do not believe you are a non responder, I believe you just have to "wake up" your 5ar and neurosteroidal DHT. Keep in mind that Body Builders take several months on PCT's, some who screw themselves up by abusing lots of steroids without PCT breaks have to go on massive PCT and try to restore themselves.
I do understand not wanting to waste anymore months of your life, I feel the same way, however, I am responding to suspension, but it's been months since I was shut down. It has NOT been easy to get where I am, it took a lot of work and misery, I suggest you temper your AI use, try to spread the doses out to about 4mg a day and take it 4X a day and keep it at that. If your morning erections do not return, lower the dose, dr Jacobs was right, it is about finding the right balance between AI and Testosterone, but the problem was he was using drugs that could NOT work, he just didn't know, not his fault.
You have 2 options you can use, one is you can go down the Masteron road, the other is you can use Andractim, Andractim is incredibly weak. I have a bodybuilder friend I gave some to, and he said it was very weak and he noticed no sexual improvements or anything, he said it was nothing compared to Proviron (which I gave him) and Proviron is very weak. I have been using him as a baseline since he does not have PFS but is suffering from Estrogen problems causing Gyno (and he is a model and it is driving him mad).
Emotions aside, I want you to recover, so I am happy to give my advice here if you want it, I am just dealing with my own PFS right now, so I don't have the strength to debate or argue or fight. Since I quit propionate to go to Suspension, my moon has become very fragile, while my libido, muscles and penis have improved. My muscles have improved the most, that is the gauge I use as it is not subjective, and historically the bigger my muscles get, the harder they get, they better everything else gets.
If you never had a response to cypionate, I would consider you non responsive, moonman has NEVER had a response to testosterone, he had one slight response to tribulus after 1 month. Moonman has had no libido for 10 years (since age 18), he is in a relationship and has to use viagra to function. Suspension has got his DHT up, we know this due to his estrogen being under control and him not needing an AI. Simply for psychological wellbeing, you might want to go the route of Masteron so you can prove to yourself that you can feel SOMETHING.
I would help you through here if you want, I just need the ability to shut all this off sometimes, it's hard to do in text, and no one else I am texting with is argumentative or angry etc.. If you could put your temper aside, I could help in text, I don't believe you are a bad person, but often guys with bad tempers don't realize how those tempers affect other people. Especially considering my hormonal experiments, I am in a very fragile state, I was much more stable and stronger on propionate, but didn't have as strong benefits as I am getting now.Yes, Iāve dropped down to .10 mg, per your suggestion several days ago.
My opinion is try it, if you want. I trialed Aromasin on three separate occasions. It never set me back, for weeks or months. A few days, yes. But then I rebounded back to baseline. The more information, the better, imo. It might be a wasted month, but at the end, weāll have more user reports whether its suppressive or not.
Aromasin always restored boners and some libido, during the first few weeks, at lower doses. Along with the positive Arimidex experience, proves high E plays a role in this condition.
Sorry RQ, what AI are you using?
Arimidex, but Iām about to switch to Letro and see if that does anything.
I feel bad for you RQ, but this is all about your temperament, if you could just agree to not argue with me or get angry with me we could work together and I could help you. It is not a very demanding request on my part, all you have to do is not debate or argue with me or get angry with me and that is it! As a person I like you and I think you felt the same way about me, it just has to do with the way we interact with each other.
You know I have no bad motives and you must know what I am saying is true, but I am just as fragile as you as I am suffering from PFS too. That aside, if you can't do that and just want to communicate through here, that is fine. Just don't overdo the AI, too much is bad, and too little is bad, letrozole is very effective but annihilates Libido, I take it when my estrogen gets out of control just to ease the suffering. Aromasin set me back by lowering my DHT, so I have to recover from 2 days of Aromasin use.
RQ, I am experimenting with hormones right now, I am recovering from PFS, I have literally pushed all my friends out of my life and family, I just hang out around a group of cool acquaintances downtown. I have decided this is best till I stabilize my protocol, I have left a long term stable protocol 2 months ago for propionate and no suspension. So we can work together if you can respect that, otherwise I am happy to help you here. It's not at all that I don't like you. Whatever the reason being, 5 hours of debating on the phone about anything is harmful to me, no one knows who you are here, this is anonymous, so a public post is meaningless, but I am just saying, the offer still stands man.
I am not like most people, I won't just ignore you and never tell you why, I will tell you straight up how I feel, not to hurt you, but so you can improve upon yourself, I like when people do the same to me. I enjoy hearing criticisms about myself, for example, the way I have been behaving on this forum in the past, I really didn't notice it till recently. I think I didn't want to mention any negative results as I was afraid the full force and weight of the forum would come upon me saying "we told you so." It seems everyone (except Gelhead) is being pretty encouraging and supportive to our goals here.
I think for your own sanity you should order Masteron and just do it for a month to prove to yourself you do respond, because the main issue you have is your fear that you can't respond to anything ever. If you go on masteron, you can quickly dispel that fear, JN noted the same things I did years ago about this.
ALSO: It is worth noting guys, there can be a very simple way to reverse PFS in everyone, no questions asked, it would be Testosterone Enanthate mixed with pure DHT AKA āAndrostanolone,ā āStanolone.ā It would require NO AI, it would completely reverse PFS, probably we would be stuck in that state forever, but we wouldnāt notice as we would feel great and normal. I already know as I have tested this out, but unfortunately there is no way to get pure DHT, there is one site I found in China, and they sell it in powder form you have to mix yourself. The sad thing is, all these years, a very simple treatment for PFS could have been devised, the problem is DHT is ILLEGAL in the USA. No doctors can prescribe it, Dr Goldstein tells guys to order Andractim (a shitty form of DHT) off the net. Why canāt some doctor somewhere just get this done for us? If it were legal and scriptable, I would can the recovery and go straight for DHT replacement.
However, I am making gains and good progress, so I will see this through for 3 more months, see where I am at at the end of 3 months, if my system is indeed recovering, or if I just have created a really good protocol.
GELHEAD: Gelheads, you know that is a pretty outlandish statement to make about guys with PFS not responding to testosterone, it seems that it may actually be the minority of guys with PFS who have trouble responding to testosterone, and as JN noted, synthetic DHT works. For someone who knows nothing about hormones and has little to no experience with them, you should be very careful what you say. Statements like yours have left many guys on here suicidal and in an estrogen dominant state where they were getting worse and worse thinking hormones wouldnāt work. Even in guys who do not feel any effects of testosterone, simply staying on testosterone Enanthate once a week with Arimidex daily or Letrozole, would result in improvement of many symptoms over the long term and possibly induce recovery.
How do you make such an outlandish statement that all PFS guys do not respond to testosterone? What about me? JN? Praying To Heal? I have found only 2 guys that I am working with who have not yet responded to test (in only 1 week). RQ is one of them, and he responded to test the first time he injected it, before he became estrogen dominant. Your statements are irresponsible and dangerous, if guys with PFS did not respond to test, this forum would be much smaller. It just requires very complicated protocols, and in non response DHT replacement is required, giving up and donating to the foundation is not a therapy. There are countless threads of guys who have gone on HRT, stayed on, felt nothing and recovered in 2-4 years. All I am doing is finding a protocol to allow guys to live normally while their system recovers rather than staying on test for years waiting to recover and feeling nothing.
I thought I was non responsive to test for months till I figured out what I figured out.
hmm. Whatās your baseline for boners, libido, night/morning wood?
That >Arimidex reduced morning wood suggests youāre in range, at a lower level.
I want to bring this up againā¦what about Androgel? Iāve heard (but not confirmed), high density of 5ar enzyme in the scrotal skin. Thatās why Androgel is not to be applied to the penis or scrotum (releases too much DHT).
Lets consider gel as a possible option, as well, coupled with an AI.
I am interested in this option, too.
im of the notion that any improvement is worth posting.
ok so took my first hit of armidex today .25 and noticed will in bed or watching a little porn my erection feels like 5%-maybe 10%
more hard. again a very small imporovment but thatās just one day.
also yes I did take 15mg of Cialis spread out during Saturday so I had a back up with my girlfriend which is probably still in my system somewhat but it didnāt feel like this before the armidex.
Androgel on the scrotum and penis?
I have been on bioidentical cream for almost 2 weeks now. I felt a very slight uptick in libido, wellbeing, better sleep on day 3. That went away after that and has been about flat. When I started my E level was at 14, A bit low. I have played with the AI (Dex) dose and eventually increased it over the weekend to high. I know when I crush my E2 cause my joints hurt, sleep is shit, fatigue, ect. Today I finally caved in and took a T shot from my doc. We shall see how this plays out. So right now I have crushed E2 symptoms and Low T symptoms. I stopped the AI use and will cruse and see if anything changes. For me dex is pretty strong. It doesnāt take much for me to crush my E2. Just be awareā¦ Low T and E and DHT = just kill my ass now.
allthingsmale.com/community/ ā¦ 530/page-2
Interesting. Concerning the application of testosterone to the scrotum.
MCI, trust me, itās not that arimidex is very strong for you, itās all about how low your test is, if your test is low arimidex will be strong for you, if itās high it wonāt deny it, you will find out when the shot kicks in. Arimidex by itself is harmless, I have read that in articles, itās all about how high your estrogen is, cream is a joke and with Pfs on testosterone injections, itās a different ball game.
Before I learned all I know about Pfs, I was on test enanthate long term and just waiting to recover, I would make gains and then crash. Injecting test was like injecting nothing, but I do wonder what Letro 2.5mg daily would have done staying on test enanthate long term. We will find out in your case, could provide a simple and stable protocol for those guys less interested in enhancement.
Itās all about finding the right type and dose of test and AI for the long term for each individual person.
BTW to RQ or anyone starting with suspension who has been shut down, it wonāt work right away, it is going to take as much time as propionate, I know this as the Aromasin I took shut down my DHT quite a bit. I am responding to suspension as I would to propionate, it may induce more DHT, but when your DHT is suppressed, it takes time to recover. If your DHT is shut down for years, it is going to take months to turn it back on, certainly not in 1 week. I realize after reading lots of posts here that a lot of guys give up on things after a few weeks, or even a month and assume they donāt work, it takes MONTHS to get hormones to work. Even Masteron didnāt work for me right away, it took 3 weeks before my system recognized it as DHT (since it is different from actual DHT). Now I know for a fact putting a guy with PFS on aromasin and cypionate will cause him to get worse and worse and worse and worse, you are basically shutting down his DHT and increasing his estrogen!!! Why the fuck do I know this and I am not a neuroendocrinologist? IT PISSES ME THE FUCK OFFFFF so much!!! I have been communicating with ihatepropecia and he has quit Aromasin to give my suggestion a try, it really is astounding that this hasnāt been considered. Hey Gelhead, you want guys to donate to the foundation and do nothing, what do you think is going to happen? The only 2 doctors treating PFS are clueless about how to treat it, Dr Jacobs who is one of the worldās foremost experts in neuroendocrinology did not even know what test propionate was till I told him. I am not putting him down, I am just explaining how dire our situation is, we must fix it ourselves, there is no one else. I know I am just a guy on the internet, so take it how you may, but I definitely know more about how to treat PFS than any of the PFS doctors, that is for sure. I have been treating myself for 6 months, and my theories are all based on how I have responded to things.
It is so frustrating that I am at this alone, that there isnāt one doctor out there that even is even on the same path as me, at least Goldstein is a little innovative, but Andractim is total shit. All he has to do is get pure DHT created, it exists in powder form, I can order it and mix it myself, it used to be available commercially and hasnāt been for years. Dr Goldstein agrees with me that non responder guys need DHT, so there is no argument there, his tools are garbage, cypionate is the most estrogenic form of test available, and andractim is the shittiest form of DHT available. He prescribes a tiny amount of arimidex that isnāt enough to do anything. So Gelhead, what exactly are you expecting to happen? I already know several ways how to solve this condition. It depends on what type of PFS you have, in my situation a 24/7 extended release version of Arimidex 1mg would fix me, done, I would be able to take any form of test and that would be that as my system recovers.
For other guys who are non responders a simple mixture of testosterone enanthate with PURE DHT injectable long acting ester mixed together, it could be even 1 shot a week if they were both long acting esters mixed in 1 bottle. It is not just I who has made this observation, I ran upon JNās posts and he was basically writing the same thing. The only difference between then and now is I have found more efficient forms of testosterone and figured out the estrogen problem and that much more frequent and higher doses of AIās are needed. I wouldnāt get my hopes up for anyone to figure out anything anytime soon, it is up to us unfortunately.
Thankfully I am well versed in this and I will not stop until I have reached perfect protocols, even though I know how to fix this in a day with the right drugs (that do not exist) but could be made! I have to use what is available commercially, I will state for the record, 10mg of suspension is working MUCH better, so my dose was way too high, it is even possible that 5MG may be the right dose, but I canāt deal with it that low. I am considering taking the liquid form of arimidex (Liquidex) and measuring about 10mg and putting it in a bottle of gatorade and basically drinking it all day. As for ideas, that is the best I can do for extended release Arimidex right now, till I figure out how to make one. I have read on the internet that there are ways to make extended release drugs, I plan to contacted AR-R, a research company that sells compounds for research purposes, and I am going to offer them money to make me an extended release version of Arimidex. This is my next goal, if anyone can in their spare time find a company that would create such a compound, we could solve the problems of a lot of guys here who then could inject any form of testosterone and respond.
As for guys who do not respond, what do they do long term if their only hope is DHT injectable (which is illegal), canāt the PFS foundation lobby somehow to get this drug legalized for guys with PFS? It is not as though this condition cannot be solved, the solutions are there, JN came to the same conclusions (except the arimidex one), I am one man, alone I can only do so much, that is why I am forced to work with what is available. Once Moonman is reversed using the nuclear option, guys here on this forum will have to take notice that there is a treatment for non responders, and itās just the availability, this just makes me so angry. Also you guys can tell the 10mg of suspension is working better based on my angry posts lol. I was an afraid little girl when my estrogen was too high. You would all be so surprised what is missing from your personalities too, estrogen changes a lot more than you think.
You know what? Fuck it, what a fucking brilliant IDEA! I am going to take Liquidex about 5-6mg and pour it into a gatorade bottle and drink it all day, see how that pans out, that is brilliant, just make sure to make it last all day. Now keep in mind guys, your dose requirement of arimidex depends on how much test you are on. If I were to inject test enanthate 1cc, 8mg of arimidex a day spaced out would make me respond, but perhaps less now that my DHT has recovered quite a bit. ALSO, I donāt always need a lot of arimidex, once my system is balanced, I can get by with much less, it is all about the amount of test I am injecting, lower test means less arimidex or letro. I am needing less on 10mg of Suspension.
BTW, those doses of Arimidex are too high, so figure out what you need, too much arimidex and you will lower your estrogen too much and get nauseous and headaches, it is that sweet spot you have to find, that is why letrozole works so well. Once letrozole gets steady state, you can get by with one dose a day. I worry whenever I post about taking high doses of Arimidex, someone comes up having taken too much and feeling like shit, please keep in mind, off of test you only need about 0.5mg to 1mg a day at the most, on test it is very different and you have to find what works for you, it wonāt be the same for everyone.
UPDATE: Moonman and I are going to start looking into compound pharmacies or companies to create an extended release arimidex for us, in the meantime I am happy to report continued significant improvements on test suspension 10mg vs 20, I was way too high. Also going to begin researching the versions of pure DHT available from chinaā¦ Get it Gelhead? This is all there is, what I am doing, nothing else buddy, so while I agree to donate to the foundation, this is all there is in getting guys better, and the SAD thing (as JN noted) is that this can easily be treated with the right drugs.
PS. I have been making notes in my icalender about how I feel, when my mood changes from good to bad etcā¦ Helps me understand whatās doing what, lowered dose of suspension is giving me normal response about 7 hours after injection (also after 2.5mg of letrozole 2x). Once the test calms down in my system a bit (as studies show suspension can last up to 3 days due to the crystals) Iāll need less AI. Whenever you lower a testosterone dose, Pfs or no Pfs, you suffer a huge estrogen surge.
NON RESPONSE THEORY PUT TO REST: well, pretty soon the non response theory will be settled one way or the other. Matt plans to start Masteron as soon as it arrives in a few weeks or less. I will guide him to do it properly. What then when the entire forum sees a guy shut down for 10 years and non responsive responding with masteron. We have no reason to believe he wonāt, this could finally lead to this being taken seriously. My hope is then that others will follow and the foundation will use its weight to lobby for dht injections to be made available to those of us who need them. The nuclear option will be tested very soon, very exciting stuff. Remember that it must be done the right way, and I know that right way.