I did too, but I felt nothingness, nothing worked, when I experimented with masteron I did gain lots of muscle and had a crazy libido and super sensitive dick. The only problem was the rise in estrogen on a neurosteroidal level as my own dht shut down. Thoigh I was on test enanthate at the time, had I been on suspension the results would have been different.
I just don't know how you can accept this as a life sentence without trying things. I mean it can't get any worse, I have managed to come pretty far doing all this. Granted it's been painful and I have had my ups and downs. It's a horrible situation, but there are ways to get your penis working again and give you sexuality.
You seem to know a lot of doctors, they have never tried anything with you? Clearly this condition can only be managed with hormones. I understand how you feel but you have to try something, the suspension for example. It's inducing a lot of 5ar and dht, it doesn't seem to matter what our levels are. I had my levels perfect with hormones during and after the crash, obviously as that study confirms it was neurosteroidal. If you disagree with my theory than what is yours? It seems that I have been able to manage my condition by inducing dht and lowering estrogen. The study confirm it is low dht and high estradiol in neurosteroids.
We know those neurosteroids can be affected by hormones and anti androgens. Surely you want to do something about this, you must fight it.Test Prop and Arimidex have arrived. Needles come next week. I plan to pre-load with Arimidex for about 7-10 daysā¦see if I can get any improvement in boners/libido before starting the prop. Suggested dose for Adex alone?
Hello guys, I have a not so happy update for you, while suspension made me feel amazing for a few days, it has made my muscles get huge, increased libido and sensitivity and function, I have been hit with s horrible melancholy. It is a sadness unlike what im used to, while on prop I seemed to have more balance, I did let letrozole leave my system, I took some but the sadness is pretty bad.
I will admit I got excited and might have over injected as I injected 20mg twice a day, I canāt abandon it due to the gains it has given me. It must be so potent that somehow itās increasing neurosteroidal estrogen. Thatās my only explination, Iāll keep you guys updated, I have been through things like this many times. It just has been a long time since I have due to my aggressive anti estrogen treatment. I stopped using them as much and it could be some kind of rebound estrogen from quitting letrozole short.
Anyway, I must report this and be straight as this level of sadness is dangerous. I will let it deplete and resume experimentation as soon as itās left my system. Iām having no estrogen symptoms in anyway. I have read body builders discuss how certain steroids have made them cry and get emotional and so itās something that must be considered. It may be causing some kind of intense increase or drop.
I may attempt to retry at much lower doses every other day as it is extremely potent, 20mg of suspension is like 40mg of any other testosterone form. If you have prop keep on it, if you start suspension, start at a low dose and make it every other day. I will report back, no other symptoms but intense sadness, muscles are hard and big, dick is sensitive, libido is strong.
I have never experienced this with no other estrogen symptoms, as I mentioned before, I tend to overdo things. So anyone who starts this, there are amazing benifits, but you must be careful about overdoing it. I imagine the quickness of action and conversion to dht an also go the other way, but no physical estrogen sides? It could be my hormone levels rising and dropping very quickly, so Iām wondering if keeping a low dose of a longer acting test in me might help, Iāll report back.
Donāt be discouraged, I have been through 57 crashes and many ups and downs and I have gained lots of muscle on prop and then suspension and my mood was usually very good. Even now I have that strong sexual connection which is rather strange, but I have an ethical duty to report this.
I will update you guys as it wears off and I try a lower dose, but for the first couple days I was cured, I must have become over confident and overdid it. I injected the next morning right after the first night. As I write this the sadness is wearing down, but I must report this. I will be remodulating the protocol and dosages. Can the sadness be unrelated? I donāt think so, but it is a possibility, I think itās body builder hormone fluctuations.
This never occurred on prop as it was a steady release, my levels could be going up and down who knows, I do know my dht is good due to the physical effects. I wonāt be giving up on this anytime soon with the amazing gains and less need for an AI.
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Yes brother. Thanks for keeping it real. All feedback is precious, whether good or bad. Highschool friends that did crazy cycles (including suspension) literally cried in the huddle during football games, they were so angry/raging etc.
You gotta keep things static and dose the AI around that. Lower the suspension dose, keep it constant, now dose some Letrozole until you feel good with good boners/libido/mood.
You were changing two a time (AI and Test). Itās impossible to know whatās going on like this. Keep T static, and play with AI doses around thatā¦my suggestion.
What I think happened: all the Testosterone-based steroids aromatize, if the aromatase enzyme is present. The Letro wiped yours out for awhile, but the aromatase was building after you stopped the Letro. Suspension was still taken after this point, all the while the aromatase was still rebuilding. Could very well be high estrogen.
Thanks for the support, as for estrogen, I would always agree, only this time no estrogen symptoms. Normally I get bloated, muscles shrink, dead libido, tell tale signs. I have never had high estrogen without being bloated. So Iām wondering if itās the fact that suspension rises and falls so fast that my levels have just gone up and then fell. I clearly have good dht, as I write this the sadness is wearing down.
I have been searching for months on a way to build my muscles up and hard and keep libido strong and penis working great and give me a tight dry look. So I wonder how I can experience this without estrogen sides. I wonder if itās unrelated to pfs directly and a normal consequence of this steroid. If it were pfs or estrogen I would have pfs sides, not one pfs side. In fact since I started suspension I havenāt had any pfs symptoms, no muscle twitches in my calves, nothing.
If I wanted to jerk off and cum right now I could, so Iām thinking this is a consequence that all men (pfs or not) would experience on this. I must find a way to compensate, this is probably why itās not used in HRT, levels are fluctuating too drastically causing a change in mood. I may look into a low dose of enanthate or something long acting to stabilize my testosterone levels.
I may have overdone this too, I hit it hard and injected again real soon, then again, also Letro withdrawal, if you remember I stopped taking aiās, didnāt need them, hell, I still donāt. Iām wondering if itās even estrogen as Letro didnāt do too much, granted I prob have to build it back up, I havenāt taken any aiās. This hormone cannot be ignored, physically it gave me my life back, Iām going to research body builder forums, I have a feeling this is common.
Donāt be discouraged friends, I have experienced things like this prob 60 times, I donāt post them as not to discourage people as I usually compensate within hours. I had to report this as people are no starting the protocol and I want everyone to know everything. It may be something we might take just to boost our response to prop, im not sure yet. Hell, I wonāt be quitting something that made me gain all this muscle! This must be a body builder emotional side, Iāll remodulate and compensate, I always do.
Iāll also add I have read about this many times, body builders talking about crying like a girl, I just never experienced it personally till now. I have not cried in 10 years, im not the kind of guy who gets sad or cries, I actually just get angry and determined. I know this is not real and itās almost gone now, but every time something like this occurs, it gives me a better understanding of how to remodulate the protocol. I know my test levels are falling hard, thatās the point of this protocol, and the crystals cause intermitent fluctuations I think based on a study I read about it actually lasting longer than people think.
I injected a low dose of propionate to stabilize my test levels and see what that does, I could have experienced a testosterone crash within a day. Though it could be neurosteroidal estrogen, though this would be the first time since I got pfs that such occurred without physical symptoms. So thatās what leads me back to it being an unrelated side that is of the hormone itself and not involving pfs.
Something is going on, and we will figure it out.
Honestly, I think the best way to go about this is to keep a static dose of Suspension, run it for a couple weeks, log the results, then slightly change up or down. Bouncing around off this, on that, double this, then later withdrawlā¦nearly impossible to know what each one is doing individually, and it confuses the whole picture.
It sucks, but patience is required here. Once the melancholy subsides, maybe run Suspension at 10 mg a day, for 10-14 days, and see where youāre at.
Whatās going to happen here is estrogen will come back. So, even when Suspension is kept constant, over time, the aromatase enzyme will get higher, and estrogen symptoms will reemerge. This requires the reintroduction of a mild AI. Another two weeks youāll know how much AI you need at X mg of suspension to stay feeling good, with libido and boners. With that, youāll get a basic idea of the T:AI ratios your body requires. If I take XX mg of Suspension, body requires X mg of Letrozole. etc.
This is just a speedbump.
I at this point designate this as an unrelated symptom to pfs and directly to the action of the hormone. I have no evidence that this has anything to do with pfs based on 6 months of research and experience and logs. Hell, Iām dealing with powerful hormones, but someone who is suicidal should not use this till I figure it out. Isnāt that a kicker? I find the one hormone that reverses everythkng without the need for an AI and it has a side effect of severe sadness and depression lol! Now here is the interesting thing, when I first took it I had a very low dose of prop in me that was fading. I checked my logs and this occurred exactly 36 hours after my last prop dose (the terminal half life of propionate). While a fading low dose of prop was in my system I felt amazing. Perhaps the way around this is a tiny dose of prop, im talking 5mg a day. The sadness is now gone, Iām going to check my logs and notate when it started and stopped.
What I am not sure if I mentioned is that I have been keeping EXTENSIVE logs since the day I got pfs. I can literally tell you how I was feeling and what I took on any given day since this started. Here is an interesting note, today is exactly 3 months since I took propecia (the second time when I thought I was recovering and this wasnāt pfs, I was in denial).
4 hours ago my mood was good and I noted it, itās been exactly 3 hours since I injected suspension again, I believe it was an extreme hormone fluctuation. Not trying to make this thread any longer and drawn out, but when there is a significant change I must document it. One day someone or many people will be reading this thread, and I want to be thorough.
Now Iām feeling fine, that was strange.
I wonder if itās not a good sign. In my case, itās not just the positive emotions that are affected. I canāt really feel sadness and anger like I used to. I donāt necessarily consider sadness as a bad thing. And sadness and depression are two very different things.
Thank you tumble, your support and advice means a lot, it can weigh on me helping so many people and having so much riding on me while Iām also treating myself. So I can tell you that on suspension I really have not needed an AI, thatās the strange thing. No estrogen symptoms at all, while this could be some strange species of estrogen symptom, it has never occurred before. When estrogen hits, I get severe anxiety, water retention, muscles get soft.
I think though that you may be right, here is what may have occurred aside from the extreme hormone fluctuations. The potency of this drug is a double edged sword, the massive power and quick action came back to bite me in the ass really hard and fast. Perhaps all the estrogen hit me really hard and fast and then dissipated.
Itās conceivable that just as a massive dose of dht came on after a massive dose of test that quickly dissipated, now the consequences. A massive dose of estrogen hit me all at once, fast and hard and faded quickly. I will lower my suspension dose to 10mg a day and not redose. I was getting carried away and thatās what did this. When you find something that makes you feel amazing you can be tempted to inject it again. This was a positive thing though, now I know that redosing is a bad idea, it could have been a combo of a drop in test and rise in estrogen.
Well, just as fast as it came, it has left, I wanted to document this as severe melancholy is something that some guys here csnnot afford to mess with. I shall begin the new remodulation of 10mg of suspension a day with nothing else. Now, here is my other theory, I have quit hcg due to its estrogenic properties. I have a body builder friend who does not have pfs but hcg is too estrogenic for him too! So I ordered toremifene citrate, it is being used now by body builders as an estrogen blocker and to maintain endogenous testosterone levels. If I keep my own levels up during this, I will not experience these drastic ups and downs.
Letās see what happens over the next 2 weeks on just 10mg a day, I heard Torem is amazing and makes your nuts huge with no estrogenic sides.
Now a note to others here, while some may criticise me, no one is working on a treatment or a cure, I have no problem being a guinea pig. I have managed to regain libido, penile sensitivity, muscle mass, and mood (intermitent). Thatās a lot better than nothing and where I started. Iām making progress, and anyone who is afraid to try these protocols I donāt judge, but I want my experiences to help others and researchers as well.
Wow just like that my mood is good, so itās the level fluctuation, Iāll find out over the next 2 weeks
Well, I have never documented my negative esperiences until I started this thread. My old thread was pretty much me trying to figure out what was going on. Now there are people following me and reading and trying, thousands of people perhaps, who knows. This hasn't been all shits and giggles, it's been a rough ride to get where I am. Propionate was pretty level, didn't have rises and drops like this, if you feel this is bad for you, then just wait till I establish for sure the protocol.
I don't blame anyone for just watching or joining, me personally, I have made a lot of gains over the last 2 months. I could do this quietly and never document it, but for all intents and purposes, I have pfs in reverse still. If I stopped everything I was doing I would revert to a pfs state of penile shrinkage, loss of all muscle, and all that everyone here has. Instead, I have it in reverse, but establishing a set and stable protocol that is easy to follow and safe for all has been my goal.
I have more knowledge about hormones than any doctor I have met (unfortunately), so I feel sharing my experiences and journey will be helpful to others. When this thread ends it will be with my last protocol. Yes it's a joke how often they change, but I have had this thing in reverse for 2 months and it's certainly worth sharing. If this condition were easy to treat it would have been cured long ago. I'm onto something great here, suspension is great for pfs, we just have to tweak the doses to keep the levels stable.
Living, if you say sadness isn't a bad thing and you can't experience any emotions, then this isn't a bad sign but a good sign. Normally I wouldn't document such a quick fluctuation, it's just the sadness part due to the nature of so many suicidal guys, I have an ethical duty to report that. Don't be discouraged or lose hope, 4 hours of sadness certainly doesn't bring me back to pfs lol, I still have it reversed (and I still have it). Keep watching, we are very close, just a few more calculations and we will have this perfect.BINGO.
I salute and respect your effort. Check this out:
Iām on year#5 of guinea pigging shit out. Itās all we can do, and it will be our salvation. Keep it going!!
I was just wondering if you werenāt misjudging what could be a positive sign. Thereās an ideology that considers negative emotions as bad, but I wouldnāt consider myself healed if I could only feel positive emotions. People mentioned going to funerals of people close to them and not feeling any emotion. Obviously, being cured from PFS doesnāt mean not feeling any negative emotions. I think you mentioned being on some antidepressant in the past, but I donāt remember for what reason. Iām not trying to criticize. Itās just that I think that if I could really feel emotions again, I would probably feel a deep sadness for all I lost with these years of PFS and it would be just normal and natural.
Wow, year 5? What do you think of my theories tumble? I have had countless people contact me and tell me my theories were the only ones that made sense. We have seen some reports of guys improving based on protocols that were variations of my theories. I know I come across as having an ego, but in actuality I am just a very giving person. My ego is part of me, but itās just how I respond to criticism, I have really come along way with my theories and protocols and progress.
Suspension did exactly what I theorized, there is just some kinks to work out. There are things I discovered that inhibit recovery, for example, my views on aromasin. While some here may disagree with me (you included), itās molecularly similar to dht. I experienced it shutting down my dht, I have maintained active dht via modulating protocols. Aromasin wrecked me, I wish it wasnāt true, but itās a steroid which is very similar to dht. Thatās why it was designed, to kill estrogen without virilization, itās accepted science that exogenous dht shuts down our own dht. I know itās true as the first time I took aromasin it worked great, but like all exogenous dht, it got less and less and I needed more and more.
You would be surprised how effective calcium d Glucarate is at getting rid of estrogen. So if you are taking something that impedes recovery (or even might) it should be avoided. I have all this knowledge of hormones and experience with it and it seems (from all I read) I am the only person to reverse pfs for 2 months straight with hormones. The problem is, I have yet to settle on a stable protocol that is simple and predictable. The problem always occurs with estrogen, the neurosteroidal estrogen (estradiol) we have.
I know you donāt agree with me about aromasin, but is it worth risking? I really didnāt want it to be true, but I experienced it. If aromasin didnāt shut dht down, people would respond to it, but the responses are always inconsistent. In a normal guy I donāt believe it would cause any problems, but with out fragile neuro dht. So I started this journey 2 months ago to restart my dht. If my theory is correct then Iām restoring my 5ar and dht, and I know itās occuring quickly.
I am bummed because one of the guys im helping we had a breakdown in communication and I know he can recover with this, but he is expecting instant results. It took me months to get here, I think thatās the problem. Frustrated has also told me I should calm my rhetoric, Iāll admit perhaps I have been overtly charismatic. I just feel this forum is so gloomy and always talking about hopelessness and suicide, and thatās not necessary.
In 6 months itās been hell, but had I given up I wouldnāt be where I am. I hope that those following my protocol understand this is going to take time, it could take months. It takes 3 months to restart the hpta axis. Unfortunately my experiments are going to take time, I said we would have results in a month. The fact is, it took me 2 months after I quit masteron to get where I am restarting my dht.
It would be so much easier to leave here and just operate on my own, it takes up so much time coming here and responding to people and helping people privately. I just feel that there are people here who may want to try protocols rather than sit and wait. People can follow me and copy what Iām doing. Itās not perfect, I have said that, but the truth is, itās not tha difficult either. Itās simplified a lot, and suspension has been miraculous. I just have to workout the one problem, it may be as easy as just taking 1 or 2 arimidex every day, or maintaining endogenous testosterone levels, or one small dose of a long acting ester.
Tell me guys, do you want me to continue to post my progress as I make it, or wait till I settle on a long term protocol and come back? I would like even you Frustrated to answer this, I know the majority want me here, but do you guys understand my theories and agree with them? Do you want me to continue posting? Is there anything I can change about my posts that would be better for the forum?
I will say I heard from 12 guys who said based on my theories they have improved greatly. There were guys here who were hopeless, and I motivated people to get on protocols and try to improve. Even finbasteride, I donāt know if itās because of me, but he finally got to the doctor and is working on trying to improve. If everyone here constantly worked on getting better, we would solve this thing for everyone quickly. If everyone here got on my protocol, I am convinced in 6 months this place would be very different, what are your thoughts guys?
Oh, there was a miscommunication, reread your post living, it says the opposite, I actually thought you meant what you are saying here, but it was worded differently. Yes, that is a very good point, since I had pfs I also have not had much emotion, but I was on finasteride for 13 years and only recently realized all my problems were from being on finasteride. When I quit fin I was stage 1 pfs, I only became stage 2 from avodart.
You make a very good point Living, I donāt recall being sad about anything in the last 6 months. I would have anxiety, and boost my moods when I got myself in balance with the right protocol. Perhaps you are onto something here, the good cannot exist without the bad. I did feel great! Then I felt melancholy, I mean I was crying which I havenāt done in a long time (years). Remember I was on fin for 13 years. Moonman1 is going to continue suspension, he also experienced the melancholy as well.
First he had a mood boost (just like me), then he had extreme hunger (just like me), then he became meloncholy (just like me). This is a good thing, I wonder if tomorrow and the next day he will start having improvements like I did.
UPDATE: Moonman1 said that he took arimidex and the sadness āmelted away,ā so that confirms this was estrogenic, also he did not have the usual physical estrogen symptoms that he normally gets either. So we have a pattern emerging! My current theory is that the suspension hit so hard and fast that we had a boost and then the estrogen hit super hard and fast later on and thatās why it wasnāt the same as normal pfs estrogen reactions.
Itās clear that we must stay on an AI even though with suspension there may be no estrogen symptoms, but to prevent the sadness from occuring. So moonman will be doing 10mg of suspension in the am, and he plans to stay at that dose. There are 2 other guys on this, X1 is starting tomorrow, Iām not sure if x2 will continue or not. He was bummed about not responding right away and I fear he will give up. I actually believe he will recover if he stays the course. I have communicated poorly by promising an immediate response, I was so excited I didnāt think it through. This is going to take time, and I hope X2 will give it a try. Itās just he was on cypionate for several months and he doesnāt seem to understand the fundamental difference between being on suspension for a few months vs cypionate a few months. The difference between suspension and cypionate is recovery or not, this is stimulating our 5ar, I know it works, look how far I have come. I have one measurement that is not subjective, my muscle size. When pfs hit I lost a lot of muscle, I have gained back a lot since I started prop and now suspension, thatās hard evidence right there (at least to myself).
Hell no am quitting suspension! Iāll just make sure to take enough arimidex till I figure out the minimum effective dose.
Duplicate
Iād like to see your progress as you make it and I do appreciate the testing and info youāve given on what youāve tried. I would suggest taking a more scientific approach to the information youāre giving. Let people know what you are trying, the doses, and what your exact experience is. Let time and progress determine whether something is a cure.
Ok, I will take that advice, thanks,
UPDATE: libido has increased even more, it seems as though things are happening in a sped up way, like fast play. With propionate there would be an estrogen surge that lasted 3 days and then a dht surge following which would bring me to a new level. Seems with suspension there is an estrogen surge very fast (for just 4 hours or so) and then a huge dht surge after.
It all makes sense now, itās just all happening much faster! Itās only been about 3-4 days and there have been significant gains! Spontaneous erections for doing nothing, I couldnāt even get up in public. Keep in mind that im on month 2 of dht induction, it wonāt be this fast for all of you out there.
Iām 100% on board for suspension!
HERE IS WHAT HAPPENED AND WHAT WORKS,
The first time I took Suspension I had a low fading dose of propionate in me, that kept my test levels stable, then I injected suspension which created a huge burst of 5AR and thus reduced the test in me to DHT (plus the suspension as well). I injected a very low dose of propionate (about 10mg), hours later I injected about 10mg of suspension, I recreated the same circumstances that occurred the first time I injected it, and it worked.
The melancholy was probably from estrogen as moonman had the same thing and arimidex killed it quickly, but having a very low dose of test in your system while you you suspension seems to create the best circumstances. It was only when propionate was depleted from my system that I had these ups and downs, but as soon as it was back in my system and suspension was used, I had the same amazing effect.
Suspenion is a crude form of testosterone, it is very simple, there is nothing to maintain stable testosterone levels, and you need stable levels for 5ar to reduce test to DHT. I believe suspension alone without propionate will work fine, but with a low dose of a long acting ester, I believe we will have the perfect environment. If this continues with success, I will in a week consider a very low test of testosterone enanthate once a week (to keep levels stable) and suspension on top of that (to stimulate 5AR and induce DHT). This is not a new theory by the way, I was injecting propionate while I was on enanthate for a boost before I went out every night. This was before I knew about estrogen, and now I have much better drugs, so it is looking like this. It is going to end up probably being about a 20mg injection of enanthate a week (which is ridiculously low), then about 10mg of propionate every morning to induce 5AR and DHT and start the reduction of test to DHT throughout the day.
I had been envisioning this protocol actually, but now I have preliminary confirmation that this may be the protocol, plus of course Arimidex. Now, I am looking into arimidex a couple times a day (or more), or a low dose of letrozole daily. This will require experimentation, but WE ARE CLOSE!!!
JustQuitDut can you explain like to stupid, what is that suspension, i mean if u could write whole therapy, what to take ?
Hey gents, itās excellent to see the feedback.
The emotional side effects, what I call āemotionalismā, is from estrogen. You will cry when watching movies, and if you donāt cry, you will feel a subtle tendency to want to cry. Itās all estrogen.
This normally occurs if your estrogen is to high, and especially to high relative to test. Whatās the perfect balance? It all depends as everyone is different, and you will have to just experiment with it.
Also, some of the best cruises Iāve had has been 15mg prop cut with 5mg cyp dosed every 3 days. JQD, this supports the direction youāre moving toward of using low does, long ester test as a support base. I can vouch that it does work well. Yes, I hold a little more water (not much) than just on prop, though it does provide for more stable levels. Also, I build muscle faster with this cruise.
I have a feeling, and this is only conjecture, that youāre having estro rebound from dropping the letrozole. You dumbed two many injections of t-sus into the system to rapidly (you did almost 40mg in less than 24hrs, thatās almost bb doses), and now youāre getting the estrogen surge. This is why I only dose it eod at 10mg - itās powerful, and I know my body well.
Everyone, to use these compounds effectively, it will take time. It will take time to learn your body, the knowledge and understanding of the compounds, dosing, time of dosing, amounts, responses, etc.