Btw, there is no evidence in lab tests, therefore it’s all in your head, go see a psychiatrist lol
What’s interesting thoigh is guys who had low estrogen improved with an AI, so my theory is its neurosteroidal. We know hormones and anti androgen affect neurosteroids, but they don’t show in tests.
Also, to Frustrated and others, I feel we have debated this protocol ad nauseum, at this point dr Jacobs is prescribing it and we have people starting it (lots of people). I’m not interested in debating it anymore, I’m just here to answer questions about it from people on it or looking to start it. I believe the very best thing that skeptics can do, is just wait till we start seeing some reports on here (good or bad). There really is no point in debating it anymore, the thread is getting too long. Let’s just make it relevant now, even Frustrated wants to see people report back. So now we just wait, and im encouraging people to contact dr Jacobs and try this protocol.
I’m not confused about the esters, JQD is unwilling to try to answer the question. My recommendation is to ask Dr. Jacobs since he has actual medical training. It is a big relief that JQD is at least referring patients to an actual doctor. As for JQD’s claim that it is common knowledge that shorter-ester testosterones are less likely to convert to estrogen - it is complete BS. There are many contradictory statements on bodybuilding pages and very limited (if any) information in medical literature.
Here are some key quotes contradicting JQD from 5 minutes of Googling:
forums.steroid.com/anabolic-ster … ained.html
Read the whole paragraph the starts with “Actions of different esters”
“…testosterone suspension is the worst in regards to gyno and water bloat because blood hormone levels peak so quickly with this
drug. Instead of waiting weeks for testosterone levels to rise to their highest point, here we are at most looking at a couple of
days. Given an equal blood level of testosterone, there would be no difference in the rate of aromatization or DHT conversion
between different esters. There is simply no mechanism for this to be possible.”
"While the advent of esters certainly constitutes an invaluable advance in the field of anabolic steroid medicine, clearly you can see that there is no magic involved here. Esters work in a well-understood and predictable manner, and do not alter the activity of the parent steroid in any way other than to delay its release. Although the lure surrounding various steroid products like testosterone cypionate, Sustanon, Omnadren etc. certainly makes for interesting conversation, realistically it just amounts to misinformation that the athlete would be better off ignoring. Testosterone is testosterone and anyone who is going to tell you one ester form of this (or any) hormone is much better than another one should do a little more research, and a lot less talking."
thinksteroids.com/articles/anab … id-esters/
While it has been alleged popularly that some esters aromatize more than others, there is no support for this in the scientific literature, and the concept makes relatively little sense since the ester itself is very far removed from the site of reaction of aromatization.
ftmguide.org/ttypes.html#esters
“…excess testosterone in your body can be converted into estrogen by an enzyme called “aromatase.” This conversion is part of the body’s natural feedback system-- if there is an abundance of testosterone in the body, it is converted (“aromatized”) to estrogen in order to maintain a “normal” hormonal balance. Therefore, taking very large doses of testosterone might not be a great idea.”
The last quote basically says if you take testosterone suspension versus propionate, the former will inject an abundance of testosterone (rather than released slowly over time) which will lead to a higher degree of aromatization to achieve a hormone balance. This is what I was asking about in my last post that JQD said was pointless to discuss.
This was not what SG8627 said. He said he looked it up in his book and it was “all he needed to know”. SG8627, did Jacobs mean he was OK trying with it, or he knew enough that it would be better than other forms of testosterone.
BTW - Jacob’s prescribes several forms of TRT, not just testosterone enanthate or cypionate. He also prescribes clomid, gels and others.
I have spoken to him by phone for at least 2 hours about it and also by email, he told me he had never heard of propionate before and he was fascinated with what he saw about it. He said it could be very helpful for some of his brain injured patients with estrogen problems as well as pfs patients.The Italian study at the University of Milan will explore this under the leadership of some of the Europe’s leading neuroactive steroid experts. It’s not clear where you’re getting this idea from that neurosteroids levels can’t be measured. This has already been done in a study relating to finasteride, where the researchers found that neurosteroid levels were altered.
It is here:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24717976
The answers on this will be in the tests later this year. That is what will answer the debate.
Dr Jacobs is not prescribing neurosteroidal blood tests, though it would be interesting if he did, perhaps such tests are not done in standard labs and are extremely expensive. Nevertheless, neurosteroidal levels do not show on standard blood tests that guys here are getting.In my post above I wrote ‘later this year’. I meant to write ‘next year’.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24717976
Abstract
Observations performed in a subset of patients treated for male pattern hair loss indicate that persistent sexual side effects as well as anxious/depressive symptomatology have been reported even after discontinuation of finasteride treatment. Due to the capability of finasteride to block the metabolism of progesterone (PROG) and/or testosterone (T) we have evaluated, by liquid chromatography-tandem mass spectrometry, the levels of several neuroactive steroids in paired plasma and cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) samples obtained from post-finasteride patients and in healthy controls. At the examination, post-finasteride patients reported muscular stiffness, cramps, tremors and chronic fatigue in the absence of clinical evidence of any muscular disorder or strength reduction. Although severity of the anxious/depressive symptoms was quite variable in their frequency, overall all the subjects had a fairly complex and constant neuropsychiatric pattern. Assessment of neuroactive steroid levels in CSF showed a decrease of PROG and its metabolites, dihydroprogesterone (DHP) and tetrahydroprogesterone (THP), associated with an increase of its precursor pregnenolone (PREG). Altered levels were also observed for T and its metabolites. Thus, a significant decrease of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) associated with an increase of T as well as of 3α-diol was detected. Changes in neuroactive steroid levels also occurred in plasma. An increase of PREG, T, 3α-diol, 3β-diol and 17β-estradiol was associated with decreased levels of DHP and THP. The present observations show that altered levels of neuroactive steroids, associated with depression symptoms, are present in androgenic alopecia patients even after discontinuation of the finasteride treatment. This article is part of a Special Issue entitled ‘Sex steroids and brain disorders’.
BTW, thanks for this study, I have not seen it, before I read this my theories about this being neurosteroidal were just theories, this study confirms that they are reality. Low DHT and high Estrogen neurosteroids were detected (among other things). What we do know is neurosteroids can be affected with androgens and anti-androgens, so my theory makes sense, this is a rather significant piece of evidence to what I have been saying.
This is a smoking gun
This area should be explored through tests. Everyone knows that neurosteroids aren’t included in usual tests because they are out of bounds for our normal healthcare systems. Through testing at a proper laboratory, under the guidance of people who know what they are doing, the answers can be gained. Say, if your theory is right then we should try to check it - who knows, if it is correct then everyone with this problem can get a legit prescription for the shit they need, or some other improvements can be made to these ideas. Let’s back these studies to the hilt.
Well, that study confirms everything I have been saying all along, thanks for sharing it, it says exactly what I have been saying, this is neurosteroidal, low neurosteroidal 5AR and DHT and high Estrogen. That’s why AI’s make us feel better, but none of this shows on standard blood tests. I mean, it is right there, that’s the evidence, so the study has already been done, but to test everyone would probably be very invasive and expensive. They were using cerebral fluid, you know how they get that? I think they suck it out of your skull or something, I forget, but it isn’t pleasant or practical.
This is enough evidence to support my theories, we can only all go on the protocol and hope that it restores our system, but at least will improve our situations.
They are definitely planning to do more though. It might be briefly invasive and unpleasant. But this condition is invading every moment of each and everyone of our lives. It is invadving each and every aspect of how we undertake our day-to-day affairs, and this is rippling out like waves on a lake into the lives of our families, friends, work associates, and so on. The tests may be temporarily unpleasant. But not as unpleasant as a lifetime of hell from PFS.
They will do the tests in university laboratories, undertaken by leading experts in the field. I don’t see why they wouldn’t be very safe and the costs for the blood tests, I believe, are borne by Italian citizens probably through taxation.
There aren’t any conventional testing techniques for neurochemistry. The brain has its own homeostasis which is not detectable from systemic test. The blood brain barrier is a staunch divide between mind and body. Investigation of cerebral spinal fluid is used for neurosteroid analysis. Again this doesn’t always accurately define steroid brain concentrations.
The understanding and manipulation of the brain at the transmitter receptor level is still at its infancy. The only realistic repair of a damaged brain is that which it can acheive by itself given time.
I don’t see why the best tools available to analyse this problem shouldn’t be used. If those are the tools that are available now, then that is what people have to work with.
Well, my theory ties everything together, and that study supports it, I will send it to Dr Jacobs, but it seems my protocol combats the problem correctly. Stimulating 5AR and DHT and lowering estrogen is going to correct those neurosteroids, I agree, but not sure what more I can do. The treatment is working, now we just need to get as many people on it so Dr Jacobs can study it.
Gelhead, how come no one has come forward with this study till now? It confirms everything I have been saying!! It changes my theory to a reality!
Links?
Ignore. Just seen above.
I still believe it's a form of suppression, the 5ar system is suppressed rather than the brain damaged, I know this is an optimistic view, but other systems in the body operate the same way. Finbasteride, show this study to your doctor, it confirms what I have been saying. The neurosteroid estradiol is eatrogen, the good news is that studies and experience confirms anti androgens and androgens can affect neurosteroids. So we aren't helpless, and my protocol is working for me, we have had countless reports of Arimidex working in others.
Finbasteride, based in your optimal hormone profile, I would say your chances of improving from arimidex alone are rather good, please keep us up to date.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24717976
Abstract
Observations performed in a subset of patients treated for male pattern hair loss indicate that persistent sexual side effects as well as anxious/depressive symptomatology have been reported even after discontinuation of finasteride treatment. Due to the capability of finasteride to block the metabolism of progesterone (PROG) and/or testosterone (T) we have evaluated, by liquid chromatography-tandem mass spectrometry, the levels of several neuroactive steroids in paired plasma and cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) samples obtained from post-finasteride patients and in healthy controls. At the examination, post-finasteride patients reported muscular stiffness, cramps, tremors and chronic fatigue in the absence of clinical evidence of any muscular disorder or strength reduction. Although severity of the anxious/depressive symptoms was quite variable in their frequency, overall all the subjects had a fairly complex and constant neuropsychiatric pattern. Assessment of neuroactive steroid levels in CSF showed a decrease of PROG and its metabolites, dihydroprogesterone (DHP) and tetrahydroprogesterone (THP), associated with an increase of its precursor pregnenolone (PREG). Altered levels were also observed for T and its metabolites. Thus, a significant decrease of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) associated with an increase of T as well as of 3α-diol was detected. Changes in neuroactive steroid levels also occurred in plasma. An increase of PREG, T, 3α-diol, 3β-diol and 17β-estradiol was associated with decreased levels of DHP and THP. The present observations show that altered levels of neuroactive steroids, associated with depression symptoms, are present in androgenic alopecia patients even after discontinuation of the finasteride treatment. This article is part of a Special Issue entitled ‘Sex steroids and brain disorders’.
This study is excellent news! Why is it not more readily available, such as on section just for PFS studies? Perhaps I missed it.
This is encouraging because I have learned through my cycling that all the “hardware” of the body is working fine when it has the correct “fluids” (chemicals, hormones, etc.). On cycle I can go to 200%, and if anything was permanently broken, then that wouldn’t be possible. Also, over time of increased androgen use, my brain fog has improved, albeit slowly. So this does lead me to believe that androgens can slowly alter the neurochemical milieu permanently, and for the better. Just sharing my experience.
im just throwing this out there because this study made me have a flashback of something similar.
take it for what you will but,
when I worked the front desk in a gym I became friendly with a LOT of ppl that used.
one guy, who actually taught mma for like 3 months about, mentioned his use of his first cycle of test.
now im paraphrasing because this was 2011,
but he said, “ah man I felt fantastic bro. I wasn’t depressed but if I was it felt like it could cure that and slept like a baby”.
and I know for a fact sleep and depression problems are a side of this poison because I had them for fuckin sure.
lord do I hope this shit works for us