Jqd. I m a little baffled that you are claiming suspension is the absolute bomb without ever having tried it?
I have my fortnights supply of anastrasole. May start on 0.5 mg tomorrow. I have made some progress from my crash and fear recession.
You asked about my free t. It was 18 on a scale of 9 - 24.
Total t was off the charts high and estrogen was right in the middle 40 on a scale of 10 to 80.
Dht and adiolg were almost top of the range so 5ar is obviously working well. I still have pfs.
The only part of your theory which may still be applicable is neuro estrogen. Over sensitivity at that level because the 5ar not working just doesn t add up for me on the systemic level as my blood show.
There is no way I m going to inject testosterone with t at 800 +. Seems pointless right?
Hey finbasteride, I did try suspension, not sure if you saw my post, it was amazing! That being said, you don't need test if your levels are high. I'm not sure of the conversion from your system to ours, so I don't know those numbers in terms of our system.
That being said, you should definitely try arimidex, could you tell me your pfs symptoms again? As I said, I have a friend who had just emotional symptoms of pfs and arimidex cured him. If I remember correctly, you said you didn't have any sexual difficulties or muscle loss, that your problems were emotional, right? If that is the case try 0.5mg of arimidex and see how you feel after, arimidex has to be taken as needed. If you try and take it on a regular schedule you will end up lowering your estrogen too much which also sucks.
Take arimidex and see how you feel an hour or so later, take it the next day as well, so far I have only heard positive results from guys with pfs who tried arimidex. I really hope it works for you, do you know what your numbers are in us standards? Bio available and total test?
Esteogen seems to be meaningless as mine has shown normal and so have others and yet an AI makes us feel better. I have been using Calcium d glucarate, I still find it hard to believe a natural supplement could be as effective as Letrozole without side effects! Some how it is! I have been taking 1500mg 3-4x a day and haven't had any AI sides, it's the longest I have gone without needing an AI since I figured out this was estrogen. There is a chance it's some strange coincidence, but I have had estrogen surges and crushed them by taking more of this supplement, I'm astonished.
I recommend you start with arimidex and order this stuff and give it a shot if arimidex works (which it should). Also arimidex will boost your natural test a bit, so it's a win win.
If arimidex works, order that supplement, it's amazing!
as for u frustratedās post,
simple thought, why donāt we just get someone to try test prop, see what happens,
then someone else tries a long estered T but smaller doses each day? n see what happens
someone has to be right here
Thatās a ridiculous discussion and experiment, all you have to do is google it and find out the answer, and if someone with pfs takes a long acting ester and injects it every day they will become so estrogen dominant they wonāt be able to control the estrogen and crash.
We already have dozens of people starting this protocol, dr Jacobs told you himself that propionate works better based on his own literature, so you donāt trust dr Jacobs? This isnāt a debate, there are long acting esters and short acting esters, propionate is a short ester, a 24 to 36 hour ester, cypionate and enanthate is a 7-10 day ester, whatās there to find out? This is where Iām out of here, when the discussion gets silly.
I feel that when I come here and post, it just makes this thread longer with complete bullshit and then when someone wants to read about my protocol they have to read about absurd debates. Anyways who works with hormones or knows about them knows his isnāt a debate, itās silly, ask dr Jacobs for the answer.
If you want to have a debate about that, I suggest you google it first and see how silly this discussion is. Anyway, all I ask is that you not fill this thread with endless meaningless debates. Dr Jacobs is working with this protocol, this thread isnāt to debate why we chose propionate or suspension, itās already been chosen. At this point this thread is for people to report back or if they have questions about the protocol, itās getting silly again.
No one is to blame, not you nor frustrated, itās a forum, but I feel whenever I come back, itās not helpful to the cause of this protocol or the people trying to do it. Didnāt you yourself tell us that you asked dr Jacobs if propionate was better and he said āall I had to do was look it up in my hormone bible and I could see immediately?ā
I come on here to help people with the protocol, not to debate an established understanding of hormones that even dr Jacobs is aware of. All this does is confuse people, plus I end up wasting time sitting here typing all this for nothing. The protocol has reversed my pfs, everyone has already tried other esters, ihatepropecia has confirmed everything I said. These silly debates are flooding this thread and making it very confusing for people who just want to try this protocol.
If this was a debatable issue then dr Jacobs wouldnāt have jumped on this protocol, when is the last time dr Jacobs started prescribing someoneās protocol from the forum? So I totally understand wanting to debate, I like to too sometimes, but when it gets silly my pressence is just being harmful by inciting arguments. The time for debate over this protocol is long past, itās already worked in me and I have 3 others I heard from that it is working with, 2 more have agreed to post. I think itās best everyone just wait till people start posting in a month or 2, eventually someone will, there are prob dozens of guys (if not hundreds) out there doing this by now. I know quite a few have contacted dr Jacobs to start it.
Iāll come to report progress or significant updates or changes, but Iām finished debating, when you reverse pfs you will understand why itās pointless. Iāll share my knowledge and experiences and Iāll leave the debates to others. I feel all these debates have been debated ad nauseum. When someone posts that someone should try injecting testosterone enanthate low dose daily, Iām out! Anyone who does that will end up in pfs estrogen hell!
Also, in case I donāt come back for a while, please try arimidex first and when you know itās working and all then try the supplement I suggested. Itās too soon for me to declare it a treatment, it could be a coincidence or me improving, but I had to note it, Iāll report back in the future if it continues to work
Enough evidence has been presented, obviously you just joined in reading this, dr Jacobs is prescribing this protocol, a famous neuro endocrinologist, and he has a lot of guys he is putting on it. Exactly what evidence are you looking for that has not been presented? We had ihatepropecia who posted that he is on the exact same protocol and it's the only one that works for him. We have had numerous guys post that they have improved based on lowering estrogen.
Just because you just popped in and read one page of this thread doesnāt give you the authority to say one thing. You have no clue what you are talking about, what evidence do you want? I donāt believe we are debating the protocol at this point. The debate has morphed into if testosterone propionate is a short ester testosterone eater or if cypionate is the same length ester. An absolutel absurd argument I wonāt take a part in wasting my time on.
Obviously dr Jacobs has a lower standard of āevidenceā than you do, after all, he is prescribing this protocol for pfs now, are you staying that dr Jacobs has a lower standard of evidence than you? Or perhaps you donāt know what the fuck you are talking about, just read one page of a thread and are a drive by poster.
Yet again this forum is becoming a waste of my time, Iāll be back in the future, by the way patient X2 just started his propionate today.
See you guys later
Oh wait, I just saw you lived in Germany with a backward socialist medical system, you guys still believe hormones are dangerous, I forgot. I think a decade ago we used to believe that in the USA, but I was in my early 20s and I donāt really remember that far back.
What you donāt know, is the person posing the question āsgā is a patient of dr Jacobs to go on this protocol, and he is completely confused by an argument that shouldnāt exist. He should consult with dr Jacobs, not argue with idiots in Germany who have no idea what hormone replacement therapy even is.
Debating if testosterone propionate is really a short eater vs testosterone cypionate being a long acting ester makes no sense. Iām done with this forum for a while, I have more important things to do than be aggravated arguing about established scientific facts. SG, Iām sorry you are confused, at this point I advise you to discuss this with dr Jacobs and not get your information from socialists on a forum. They donāt have hormone replacement therapy in their country, itās like talking about flying cars to them or something I imagine.
Look people, I have reversed pfs, I decided itās time to move on, Iām not going to argue the same points over and over with people who are trying to prove that itās impossible to recover from pfs. If you want to get better please contact dr Jacobs who is prescribing this protocol, Iām done with the absurd and endless arguments, itās time to enjoy life. Iām working with the few guys Iām in contact with from the forum and a couple said they will post when they are better and im sure others will too.
I may come back if I have something really significant to report, but itās time to go back to fucking, having fun and living life. everything you need is here in this tbread, as I said, this thread is so long itās just repeating the same arguments over and over, making it too long for those who want to come here for help.
Talk to you guys later
Look I understand that you first have to present your theories before people can judge if they would like to take on the risk that is inherent in taking any form of pill. However the best thing you can do for us (as it seems that you would like to help this forum) is wait until a handful of people have actually followed your therapy. And this for at least 6 month to judge its long term effects.
Dr. Jacobs doesnt actually swallow the stuff he prescribes.
Ohh guys you question my authority and dont immediately swallow all kinds of medicine because I said so. Instead you leave this forum, or threaten to do so, without providing any kind of evidence (except apparently one user). Are you kidding me? You found the magic cure and are to lazy to test it out and provide evidence. RIGHT!
Lets be honest: You just like the attention and Dr. Jacobs is grasping for straws.
Dude, I donāt get the point of what youāre saying here. Heās using this exact protocol and itās working for him. There are other users who are also using it who do not want to report in yet because they want to wait to make sure its legit. That is exactly what he said. He said wait some time for the users to report back, good or bad. Thereās no other evidence he can provide at this time.
Iām not a doctor or a researcher, I have an extensive background in medicine and hormones and pharmacology which I used to reverse pfs. I shared that knowledge on here and with dr Jacobs, I convinced him to start using the protocol on patients. There are countless guys here who are starting it or have started it.
I have debated ad nauseum this protocol and (not just I) but others have provided links and evidence. Ihatepropecia has reported here that he is on the same protocol with success. It is not my job to provide evidence nor my duty, if you want to suffer with pfs, thatās your choice, Iām not trying to convince you to go on this protocol, Iām sharing it with the forum.
Dr Jacobs is a famous neuroendocrinologist, your opinion as some peasant in Germany is irrelevant to anyone here. This is why people leave this forum, because I have gone to the extent of getting dr Jacobs to prescribe the protocol and debated it for months answering question after question. Now the debate has not become about my protocol, but SG (who is a patient of dr Jacobs now) got confused and thinks there is no difference between enanthate or propionate. Thatās not a debate, itās an accepted scientific and medical documented fact that can be proven with 1 google search.
Iām not wasting my time debating established facts. Now you are asking for evidence or else everyone is a fraud. Thatās the problem here, there is a treatment being tested and with success already on people, and all you can do is attack it and shut it down. Why should I stay here when I reversed pfs and I have to argue with people like you when Iām
Just trying to share information. The protocol is accepted and being used, that is a fact, at this point Iām only answering questions to help people who want to start it. I am done debating the protocol, you can read through this thread and I assure you everything has been debated before and now we are going in circles because you are too lazy to read or Google.
If you want evidence, wait for someone to come forward, maybe they will, maybe they wonāt, maybe they will recover and disappear and never return. I know at least 2 who have agreed to post here, only one was able to get propionate. I have no interest in further debating this protocol, dr Jacobs is more of an authority than some idiot in Germany drive by posting.
Lots of guys leave this forum and donāt want to post when they recover due to douche bags like you, I decided to try and help others here and look at the shit I have endured. Why would anyone in their right mind ever come back here and post that they have improved so they can be attacked like I have by miserable women like yourself? Why?
āToo lazy to test it out,ā are you insane? I got dr Jacobs to prescribe it and have posted it as nauseum on here, how exactly else can I test it? I am using it, someone else posted they are using it with success. I have gone above and beyond anyone and where anyone else would go. CDnuts posted and left and that was it, instead I did all humanly possible to get this out.
You are just a drive by poster, obviously you havenāt read this thread at all. What makes you think dr Jacobs is grasping at straws?? So you demand evidence and then reject the doctor working on a obtaining that evidence? Whatās your agenda? You seem only interested in stopping anyone from finding a treatment, and you baselessly bash a doctor you know nothing about.
I choose to stay away from here as it is pointless and unhelpful to engage douchebags like you, itās just making this thread too long and im repeating myself at this point.
Without wishing to provoke a negative response jqd. Ihatepropecia was very clear that he recovered from pfs from very different methods to those suggesting here. He now uses test as largly a bodybuilding aid. He admits as much himself.
Its clear some guys have improved with ai. As one or two have come forward.
It would be great if these other guys on the propionate + ai combo would give some feedback.
How many men do you estimate are using this protocol now?
I m also not 100% convinced this is a purely hormonal issue. My endo said given my very good levels it almost certainly was not.
Neurosteroids quite possible but nothing to do with test, 5ar or estrogen systemic levels. In my case at least. Perhaps not for everyone.
Finbasteride, what are your pfs symptoms? Could you post them again? For the record I had OPTIMAL hormone levels initially due to being on HRT and while my hormones showed up perfect, I was a mess. Non responsive, no libido, felt horrible, lost a lot of muscle, the list goes on, I was only able to reverse this with this specific protocol.
Had I had optimal natural hormone levels, I have no doubt I would have improved with an AI. As for Ihatepropecia, I know you aren't that familiar with hormones, but when sober (which you have been lately and I'm happy for you) you are a bright guy. I have a theory that most guys on this forum are intelligent as it requires intelligence to make the link to propecia, most guys don't make that link.
Ihatepropecia was on the same protocol as me, it's all he could respond to, his recovery and responses are actually consistent with my theories. While he may attribute his recovery to those natural means, he was using hormones the whole time we now find out. If you notice he said he agreed with everything I said and was hoping to get back his last 10-15% via these methods. It's very consistent with what I have been saying about constant stimulation of 5ar with hormones or supplements or whatever, that plus years of time (around 4 years) seems to result in recovery.
Ihatepropecia is not recovered if he has to use the same protocol as me to respond to testosterone. My theory is that our 5ar is suppressed and it gradually will recover if we stimulate it and keep estrogen down. His recovery has brought him to a point where he can handle his natural testosterone levels, but he can't handle higher than those levels.
I suggested to him to go on test suspension and arimidex instead of propionate and Letro, he agreed and we haven't heard from him since. I filled in some blanks for him, so he already told us suspension worked amazing on him. There are varying levels of recovery, but he seems to only be able to tolerate a low dose of propionate daily and requires an AI daily (a strong one).
A lot of guys attribute their recoveries to different things, but if you look at all the stories you will find that most of them include hormone use. CDnuts for example, extensively used a dht prohormone and pct protocols which all induce 5ar.
Finbasteride, if pfs could be detected in blood tests, it would have been solved long ago, I believe the problem occurs in the brain on a neurosteroidal level. I believe its suppressed 5ar in the brain, that results in high estrogen in the brain. It seems the body maintains a certain amount of dht at all times. While my dht showed up normal, I was able to completely reverse this and hey myself to respond to any form of test with masteron (a synthetic dht injection).
If your levels are indeed good, I think you will do great on arimidex. Itās worth noting that so far we have only heard positive reports from people using arimidex. Iām excited to see your progress with it, could you please tell me your symptoms? I talk to a lot of guys and hear a lot of stuff and have developed a lot of experience with myself and some others, I might have seen someone in your situation, Iām pretty sure I have and he is doing perfect with arimidex.
Also, this isnāt directly a hormonal problem, itās indirectly one, low 5ar which results in test being converted to estrogen rather than dht. That process of test being reduced to dht occurs with 3 types of 5ar enzymes which perform lots of jobs. When those enzymes are stimulated a lot of side effects go away that we all have. Specifically though, no one yet has linked these crashes to being estrogen and reversible till I came a long. Thatās a significant discovery considering the main reason treatments have always failed for guys with pfs is due to the ācrashing.ā
Patient X1 got his testosterone today, patient X2 got his as well, X1 is using gel, X2 is using propionate. So far X1 is having good initial responses, he was convinced no one with pfs could respond to test. For a long time he didnāt even try it as he believed it would be of no help. I pushed him and now he has gone from suicidal to optimistic.
We all have varying levels of 5ar suppression, but so far even my biggest doubters are trying arimidex with success (or minimal success). You need optimal hormone levels or all arimidex will do is make you feel less miserable. So if you have good testosterone and low 5ar, half of it (more or less) could be being converted to estrogen, so if you block the estrogen, you still are only getting a lower dose of dht.
Iām not sure if you can follow that as I know itās complicated, but you will have results from arimidex, start small at 0.25mg a few times a day, see how you feel after each dose (about an hour later). Try to find a balance, you donāt want to lower estrogen too much, and you donāt want it too high. Once you feel the effects of arimidex, after a few days you will notice being calmer and having a better mood, thatās the first thing everyone reports.
At minimum, if everyone who actually has pfs teied arimidex, the entire forum would be in a different place, some people just need testosterone and there is no way around that.
What are your symptoms again Finbasteride?
It looks like there is some confusion. Hopefully the below will help a bit.
When I recovered years ago, I did NOT use any hormones!
I started using hormones long after recovery.
I started using them not for PFS, as I was recovered (minus brain fog). I used them for muscle building beyond normal limits. I could build at a normal/average level after recovery, but I wanted to grow at an enhanced rate for an enhanced size, so I started using test, etc.
I noticed when using them, that I did not respond to them in a normal, typical manner compared to others I knew. This lead me to believe it was āresidualā PFS, which I believe it is.
I have learned that I hold less water on short ester (test prop) or TNE (test no ester - test suspension). My hair also sheds far more rapidly on short esters too. I stay leaner as well.
I also learned that I have to use TONS more AI than normal people WHEN ON CYCLE.
When off cycle, Iām my normal recovered self minus brain fog. I do not use ANY compounds, AI, etc. when off cycle. I donāt need them as Iām normal.
Again, hormones did NOT cure me. I take test/steroids now NOT FOR PFS, but for building. I still do not respond normally to the compounds, though over time I have been responding better. I have also needed less AI. Also, my brain fog has improved, and when off cycle the improvement remains. Also, my DHT has slowly improved as well. These experiences support the idea that possibly my 5ar is slowly performing at a higher level.
The theory would be control E, and force the body to convert the test to 5 ar. Shorter esters (prop) or no ester (sus) seem to spike this process better. I believe itās because they get in, attached to the AR, convert to DHT, and once the body senses the higher androgen, itās to late for aromatase because the test is used and almost out of the system. If it was a longer ester, it would linger around. I DONāT KNOW if this is correct. Iām humble to admit that I have no idea, and its only a theory, though my own experience seems to lead me to believe it is correct. Iāll leave the debate to the greater minds. And if it is not correct, thatās fine too because my results show less estrogen sides and higher DHT sides when using prop or TNE, and for me, thatās all that matters.
Ok so he recovered naturally, but his experiences confirm mine and others and my theories. Now if you guys remember, I came up with this protocol as a means to respond to test and normalize myself, the recovery is a theory that will take time to prove. I have found in most recovery stories that guys used lots of 5ar stimulating compounds.
In Ihatepropeciaās case, he is using them to recover more, but he still can only respond to this protocol it seems. Now the question is, had he been on this protocol in the begining, would he have recovered quicker? I think he would agree that he would have. I cannot prove this as it is a theory, but it seems that most who recover have stimulates 5ar at some point, and the timeframe is always about 4 years.
What some here have forgotten is that there are a shit load of guys on this forum that could never figure out how to respond to testosterone. They labeled themselves ānon responsive,ā but thatās not true. We can respond to hormones, it just is more complicated. There is a guy from this forum who just went to an anti aging doctor to finally take my advice and fix this. The doctor offered to inject a dose of cypionate (this is what they do to get you hooked). Thankfully he listened to me, his response would have been devistating based on his response to test boosters, he has been able to counter these responses with arimidex.
Now by using gel (which has a 24 short half life), he is able to get himself to respond to testosterone initially, even though that response is very minimal right now. He will continue to improve and respond more as he keeps estrogen in check. Itās when the estrogen gets too high that we suffer these ācrashā symptoms. The whole reason nothing worked for guys here for so long is because they kept ācrashing,ā well, I have proven those crashes are estrogen and reveesible.
Now that crashing is out of the way, it makes a lot of things possible. We know that people recover from this, so if this protocol allows you to feel normal (or as normal as can be) logic dictates that recovery would be faster and perhaps induced. 1 month ago when I started this I was on 4 doses of Letrozole a day, I havenāt taken leteozole for 3 days now.
It would be great if everyone here tried arimidex and reported back, we have only heard positive things from people. The only problem is if you have low testosterone then you need to boost that up too. I have heard from so many people starting this and no one has reported back on the thread yet. We just have to wait, but this is very encouraging.
I donāt know why some here battle me so, I shared my data with dr Jacobs, he became a believer and is prescribing it. Iām sure he will publish a paper when progress is made. I am sure I wonāt get any credit for this, but it wouldnāt be the first time, and this time I really donāt care, I just want everyone to get better.
I dont know where to post it, but firstly i want to sya i read more of that topic and im eager to try your therapy in few moutnhs.
I have PFS for 1,5 year so far. I am on gluten/lactose/sugar free diet. Im weighlifting regularry, i tried natural testosterone boosters but they didnt help. I decided to try testosterone cycling and i will write what i did.
-testosterone enanthate 350 - once a week
-hcg 500ui - once a week
-tamo 1 tablet after end of testosterone cycling for 2 weeks
-clomid 50mg for 2 weeks after tamo.
-proviron for mounth
I am on last day of taking clomid. Shamely whole therapy didnāt boost my libido, i did blood tests and my testosterone and estradiol went up, i made great reduction+muscles over time of 3,5 mounths so iām sure test was working butā¦ as i said i had 0 improvment in libido or mentally i didnt think stronger or more eager to live. Can you explain me why ? I think i am going to try ur therapy.
There one more crucial thing, during that 1,5off the drug, there was a moment when i was taking test booster (san myotest) and creatine and i had strong improvement in libido, i felt like 80% healed. It didnāt last for long, im not sure why, maybe test ended or i finished taking creatinge couse of headaches while weight lifting (probably couse of increased blood pressure).
hi JQD,
I just wanted to clear something up, And that I wasnāt confused or debated that test Prop or other forms of test not mattering if the esters are different. that I understand and believe u and dr Jacobs, I always have.
what raised an eyebrow was frustratedās post, about the esters and how it doesnāt matter which one you take. When I hear something like that I take it literally and feel it deserves some attention considering whatās at stake here.
I merely threw an idea out there with my āexperimentā and never meant to confuse or mess anyone up. I knew nobody was gonna do it most likely, but I figured why not throw it out there because hey ya never know. I just thought we can express ideas and spiffball a little. like a trial and error kinda thing. but if im def wrong then I apologize.
Also with regards to Dr Jacobs, he never told me the will def work and im gonna be fine. otherwise I promise I def would said that to u guys.
He said and I quote, āLets see what your levels are because we donāt know what your E2 is. But after everything comes back I have no problem
with you experimenting with this protocolā.
I know heās a doctor and they are taught to never give promises and no I donāt think he is grasping at straws as someone else here, I donāt know who, put it. Grasping at straws would mean heās literally taking ANY SUGGESTION and prescribing it which is DEF not the case here boys.
obviously he thought enough of JQD and his idea to prescribe to his patients.
Again, was just throwing an idea out there like many have on pretty much every thread here. the saying goes ātheres no bad ideas in brainstormingā. wasnāt my intention to confuse or piss anybody off.
like I said, I just want everyone to get better.
It is not my intention to harass you or to discourage you from spreading your theory. However, I really get annoyed, when you ride into town with a victory banner over your head and declare anyone who questions your theory a āpeasantā. Now obviously you cant be certain that you have found the cure. I hate propecia recovered naturally, his experiences are not conclusive enough. If you would say: Hey guys, I have this theory and tested it on myself and the protocol worked for me and Dr. Jacobs is experimenting with it, then that would be a more humble way to go about it. Instead you are certain that you have found a cure without testing it on a significant number of people over a significant amount of time.
Now of course you dont have to test out your theories in this way, however I believe it is very premature to declare any form of victory.
I do hope more people come forward and wish you success with your or Jacobs testing.
Also boys, I am mere days away, maybe even tomorrow, Dr Jacobs will be emailing me my blood labs and probably a script for my juice lol
I will post all info as soon as I take it all in and understand it.
