Sorry for being lazy here…I’m so exhausted guys. Can someone update me on latest protocol here?
I still recommend the protocol of propionate 10mg a day with arimidex 0.5mg as needed throughout the day and if arimidex is not enough then letrozole 2.5mg a day. I am currently working in a new protocol with a better form of testosterone which I am waiting for Dr Jacobs to prescribe, once I work that protocol out I will post it.
I urge you all to go to Dr Jacobs and get on this protocol, he is studying this and the results, it is the only way we can make progress is by getting more guys together. He can find trends which could help the Harvard studies, but at least it is finding a treatment/cure in the meantime.Hey Frustrated, I just read your post about giving up and accepting this as a life sentence, now I see why you are so miserable. I am sorry, but I don’t see why you can’t at least give this a try, what exactly have you to lose? I recommend you go to Dr Jacobs and get on Letrozole 2.5mg for a couple weeks before you start testosterone suspension, go on it and see if you can induce your 5AR and DHT. I have also been to a zillion specialists, remember that I was an executive of a medical company and have a lot of resources. I have found that they have all lacked knowledge in hormones, to your surprises Dr Jacobs was unaware of these forms of testosterone, this is bodybuilder science, that is why this has not been solved.
You tried HRT and it did not work but we know now that testosterone cypionate and Enanthate is ineffective for this disorder, and yet with such a horrible condition, you refuse to give it a shot? We have only had positive posts, and let’s say that doesn’t work. What about Masteron? that bypasses the 5AR system altogether, it would give you complete reversal and response to testosterone cypionate.
You have to accept that your doctors simply don’t know enough to help you, I was only able to solve this with bodybuilder science, I tried every doctor and everything, I had to find the treatment on my own. You cannot logically rationalize it with what your doctors know as it is not something they know about. I have never met even an HRT doctor that knew what testosterone suspension was, even my Anti-aging doctor (who is famous) did not know what testosterone suspension was and barely knew what propionate was.
I feel bad for you, I really do, but all you do is try to discredit me when I am trying to help people to no benefit of myself, and Dr Jacobs is the doctor treating them, so your claims I am some fraud are unfounded.
Hey guys, I have to post this, I have noticed Letrozole lowered my libido, while it controls estrogen great, it lowers libido which isn’t something we need. While I have a libido and sexual function, it is lower since starting Letro, I just realized it. That didn’t occur with arimidex, so start out with arimidex, if you need Letrozole, keep the doses low. I also have been using pretty high doses, please note I have libido and sexual function, I’m just noticing it is less on Letrozole than arimidex.
Suspension is so androgenic that I am going to wait till I go on that before I decide to go back to arimidex. That’s why I suggest starting with arimidex and moving your way up. I may go back to arimidex and keep Letrozole for when estrogen gets out of control to nuke it or something.
I just wanted to add this so you guys can keep it in mind. Keep in mind I have been using 2.5mg 1-4x a day, I had been doing so to allow my system to recover more and then ease back. Part of why this has been so difficult to treat is everyone has different levels of hormones and suppression or damage. So finding the right balance for yourself takes some time.
I also am still recovering from dht and aromasin use, but I get horny, full sexual function everything, I just notice any changes and report them to help others. For some, the difference between having a sex drive and not having one may be Letrozole. Meaning, some may have such high estrogen that arimidex won’t cut it and Letrozole will be required to have a libido, for others it may be too much.
I will have to think about it, I’m doing so well, my libido may be lower, but it works and everything is balanced, in time as I recover it will increase and I’ll need less Letrozole. I also know testosterone suspension is crazy dht inducing, so the sex drive from that is huge and I won’t need Letro when on that due to no ester, but I have to notate everything for others who may have varying levels of problems.
There are also some people who have taken cypionate and are stuck in an estrogen dominance cycle and for that Letro would be required to get out. My long term goal is always to lower Letrozole and switch to Arimidex and lower that. I believe with suspension most of the estrogen problems will be gone.
I am not opposed to trying treatments but I am no longer (and never really was) interested in being a guinea pig. Right now, there is no clear evidence that guys are benefiting from this approach. If a handful come back with strong positive reviews it is something I would consider.
Doctors obviously don’t yet have the knowledge to get us out of knowledge. If it is even possible, nobody has been able to treat PFS patients consistently. Of course, they will not be familiar with body builder drugs as they are pretty underground drugs. But the doctors I have seen and know are very smart and can figure them out quickly if there is any value to them.
You don’t get that so many guys have come here with some grand theory and a sense of optimism which understandably excites others who have run out of hope but are so desperate to believe anything that gives them hope. They will try the craziest things and end up out the cost of treatments and be worse off than they are. If you cool it on the rhetoric, I won’t have any problem with what you are doing. It seems reasonably safe if Dr. Jacobs is willing to try out these formulations of testosterone. If you are right, in about 3 months you can have all the credit you want. But you are not yet the King of Propecia Help. Right now you are nothing until you get results.
There are definite downsides to taking these drugs but that doesn’t mean they should be completely ruled out. I have not tried testosterone cypionate, but most forms of exogenous T will shut down your own production and it will take a while to restart. I quit hCG months ago and don’t feel like I’m back to baseline. You can also suffer from increased depression/mood volatility during onset/withdrawal of these drugs. Some guys here no longer have hairloss because they have limited amounts of DHT. Taking these hormones can cause rapid and permanent hairloss once you begin creating DHT again. Obviously if there is a reasonable chance this will work, it is probably worth it. But so far many formulations of TRT have been failures.
I know you say there is something special about short or no-ester testosterone formulations. But the truth is I did not find any peer reviewed evidence of this or even any remotely credible literature on body building sites. This doesn’t mean you are wrong, but it sure ain’t a certainty yet. If you actually have a convincing reason why this is true, I would appreciate an answer. If you don’t, that doesn’t mean you are wrong about your theories but you should be humble and realize you don’t yet understand the whole picture. Believe me, I am not an idiot, so if you can offer a convincing reason I will either be able to understand it or have access to resources that will enable me to do so.
Appeal to Frustrated: Dear frustrated, I understand how bad your situation is, but I urge you to try my protocol with testosterone suspension through dr Jacobs. It’s just testosterone and it can’t hurt you, it could get you out of this mess you are in. What do you have to lose? If you have given up and decided to go on living life having this as a sentence, don’t you owe it to yourself to exhaust all avenues? This is working for me and others are reporting back positive results. I understand how you can be so miserable, I appeal to you, try this please before you give up. Despite whatever you may think of me, all im asking is for you to contact Jacobs and try test suspension 10mg a day with arimidex as needed or leteozole.
Arimidex at least 4x a day 0.5mg to 1mg, but I think on suspension you won’t need much, and Letrozole 2.5mg a day if need be. What have you to lose?
Very well, acceptable, I will type up an answer when I get to my hangout in about an hour. Please keep in mind im doing this on my iPhone, I don’t check spelling or grammar, I try to do a lot of things at once, so please don’t be a grammar nazi. If I have to I can write a paper and I am actually a writer, but this is texting to me, so it’s fast. I am expain in detail why all of this is working, I will go I to detail tonight in about an hour or so.
It’s worth noting Ihatepropecia has pfs, though he has recovered a lot, he still cannot handle hormones and thus has required the same protocol. Suspension is a game changer, I’ll explain why later, there is science to it that I will back it up with. I will also explain the estrogen problem and the rebound.
I will also explain why hcg is a double edged sword that is way too estrogenic for our condition until you have a hormonal balance.
Actually, I think I typed all that already many times and you know my theories, but I’ll explain the testosterone esters and why they work. Just so you know, I’m in contact with several guys who are improving, unfortunately all wish to remain anonymous and I haven’t even mentioned them till now. The only 2 I have that say they will come forward when they are improved and they both just got their testosterone, one is getting his tomorrow.
The ester thing is rather simple, I’ll explain that when I get back on here in an hour. You already told me you shared my theories with your doctor and he said they had merit. So no need to retype all that as it is exhausting for me mentally and emotionally to be on this forum (which is why I take breaks). As for the differences in esters, read that link and I will explain this later tonight, it’s easily explainable and rather common knowledge among body builders.
Testosterone suspension is long forgotten and not practical and not liked due to the highly androgenic effects, it is considered one of the most potent steroids that exists. You can google that easily and read about it. I will explain later why testosterone suspension is a miracle drug for all of us with pfs.
Please read this link in the meantime as I may not get back on here for a while
I believe you JQD, can you PM me the contact info for Dr Jacobs? I assume I can do all this over the phone so I don’t have to fly to him every few weeks for an appointment. I’m ready to test this and will post my results.
To Frustrated:
Please first read this link, it is very informative
isteroids.com/steroid-esters/
As for testosterone suspension, it is considered to be one of the most potent steroids, the most mass building, the most androgenic, the highest side effect profile, and the least estrogenic. Body builders think that means they can inject 500mg a day and have no estrogen sides lol, but I’m talking about its mechanism of action, not body builder use. All testosterone aromatizes, and esters aromatize more, that article explains it.
I have been in test long before pfs, so I’m very familiar with this phenomanon, here is why. When testosterone is released in our body it quickly converts to dht leaving little behind to aromatize. Testosterone is a precursor designed to quickly concert to dht and not remain behind to slowly release. In a normal man, 5ar actively reduces test to dht as the ester is broken down and the test is released. There is a reason testosterone enanthate is less androgenic and preferred for hrt over cypionate.
There is a difference between esters, it’s not natural to have an ester in our body that slowly breaks down, with a suppressed 5ar system, we exhaust our 5ar and start aromatizing. The estrogen then dominates us and shuts everything else down etc… With testosterone propionate, it quickly converts to dht and every hour declines in concentration (making it the first manageable form of testosterone for pfs). I already have heard back from guys who bought it on the net and are having progress, unfortunately they won’t come forward, so we have to wait till some do.
So we clearly have experienced that propionate is manageable, I have posted countless links moonman sent me that showed men responding to propionate vs cypionate. Testosterone suspension acts like endogenous testosterone, so it all stimulates 5ar (extensively) and causes lots of conversion to dht. Dht has a 5 day half life and estrogen has a 13 hour half life, dht is an irreversible suicide inhibitor of estrogen. So as we build up dht and minimize aromatization, we put ourselves in a more normal situation.
We cannot cause our testicles to produce high doses of endogenous test, and many doctors have proposed injecting high doses of test. They all use the wrong form, it is self defeating for our condition, cypionate is too estrogenic for most normal men. Frustrated, I have been on hormones for years before pfs, I have a lot of experience. Unfortunately the medical community is pretty hormone illiterate, I had no idea! Even my anti aging doctor (who is famous) had no clue what testosterone suspension was! He wouldn’t prescribe it, Jacobs would, but here is a famous hormone doctor, no clue what suspension is.
I went to many endocrinologists, at least 5, when I speak in person I do not come out jumbled like I do on here texting on my phone. In all cases the endocrinologists told me that my knowledge in these matters surpassed theirs. I was really shattered and hopeless, how could that be? So I started using my knowledge to learn more. I found that while on enanthate getting no response, an injection of test propionate (on enanthate) induced 5ar which started reducing test to dht. It doesn’t make sense according to medical literature I would imagine, but it is the quick release of testosterone which stimulated 5ar and started the process of reduction to dht.
However, estrogen would dominate me, at the time I had no idea what these mysterious crashes were, all I knew was inducing HGH stopped them. Now I know that HGH was indirectly acting as an anti estrogen as HGH regulates 5ar and thus started the process of reduction of test to dht which then killed off estrogen and stopped the crash. Now I know these crashes are reversible with an AI, we all know that now. I must have heard from a dozen guys inducing dht naturally or with test and now responding with high doses of AI’s.
Why these guys don’t post, I don’t know, but there was a point I started posting their posts to prove I wasn’t lying and you criticized me for that. It is only a matter of time now before we hear back from people on this protocol. I just feel bad as suspension is a 100x better option, and widely available. I suggest you read about it in body builder sites and forums, but it isn’t something people have or use. It is a rather obscure steroid, and yet considered to be the most potent of all.
I don’t think I can say it better than that link I posted where this guy really goes into detail. I was not always like this frustrated, being my own doctor, I was like you, I went for help. When they couldn’t help me, I had to become my own doctor. When I came to Jacobs I was on masteron and had found a way to bypass the 5ar system altogether and reverse pfs with respect to muscles and penis and libido. However, as I explained before, neuroestrogen rose and I suffered effects, i never refined that protocol as I came to these conclusions through masteron. Why was it doing this? It would only work while on testosterone, when test dropped, it stopped working, and it took weeks to start working.
The masteron was acting as a potent AI and allowing test to reduce to dht and replacing the low dht that I had. Sorry I am getting off topic, but as I went to dr Jacobs, I did expect him to know what I knrw. To my surprise he told me I was teaching him things, that’s when I realized I had to get myself out of this. You are looking for answers in literature that just doesn’t have them, the same literature that denies this condition exists. Doctors to this day say dht is useless, for years they were saying that and promoting finasteride.
So what we need is a 5ar/dht precursor, the best one that exists in the world, that I know of is testosterone suspension. That massive release of testosterone all at once stimulated 5ar extensively and reduces test to dht. Then the testosterone dissipates within 3 hours, so instead of dealing with the estrogen fall out hour by hour with propionate, we are dealing with it minute by minute. Look, even dr Jacobs said that his hormone “bible” gave him all the answers he needed about propionate, someone spoke to him and posted that here.
So what I am saying about propionate is in medical literature as dr Jacobs has it in his books. Suspension works along the same principal but without an ester (which makes it stronger). So if medical literature (according to dr Jacobs) states that propionate is as I say less estrogenic, then suspension is even more so. Ihatepropecia has confirmed it, I tried it myself and I confirm it is amazing, I had only a small dose to experiment with.
I don’t know all your issues, I do know all pfs guys I have spoken to have responded to AI’s the same way and not one of those guys now is living without arimidex or Letrozole. All of those guys are operating off of them now and do not quit due to the alleviation of symptoms. Dht kills estrogen, suspension induces a lot of dht, and it’s basic mechanics here. The less time and potency that testosterone has and stays in your system, the less aromatization. If you maintain the same level of testosterone 24/7 you have a steady stream of aromatization. However, if that testosterone is not only more androgenic (converts to dht more) then declines by the minute, you have less aromatization. I believe this method would stress our 5ar system to adapt and produce more.
Our systems cannot adapt with standard testosterone as the estrogen is too high with a suppressed 5ar system, it’s too difficult. Propionate is confirmed, you may not know it yet, but I do, and others do, suspension will be the end all, I hope this explains things better.
He does treat you remotely which makes him the best choice for most guys, he also can prescribe medications remotely (which is great). His email is alanjacobsmd@gmail.com, while I have been touting testosterone propionate. I suggest you ask him for testosterone suspension, I have been talking about it for the last 1 and a half months, I was waiting for it to arrive. I finally got to use it and as I just explained, it’s an even better option.
He will know exactly what to do, just tell him you want testosterone suspension, I recommend you start with arimidex as needed. The more people who go to him the more he can understand this condition and as we all make progress he may be able to find trends which will help the studies on pfs.
I encourage any guys here who want to get better to contact dr Jacobs, it’s working for me, and already have heard positive things from a few people. It’s just a matter of time before people start posting, I know that quite a few have contacted him by now.
JustQuit,
Can you give us a detailed report of your recovery? Like morning/night wood? How many times you feel horny during the day? How many times you can climax during the day? How strong boners are? Your mood, wellbeing and energy?
Thanks
Jqd, have you tried to use pramipexole? If you read this link you will see people saying they got more muscle, leaner, higher libido, more focus, attention, better mental health. Prami reduces prolactin from a different action and also increase hgh. Would like to read your opimion on it since you’re responding to testosterone again because your androgen receptors and 5AR are working again, also because some guys also said that their sex drive is higher even after stopping using it. I think it may be the final piece of the puzzle since an increase in testosterone has an impact on dopamine and dopamine is responsible to a lot of things in our body. It may also be the answer for Apr1989 muscle twitches and ihp brain fog.
So thought I might update you as I went to my endo.
My testosterone was through roof high at 29 nmol/l with the top of the reference range being 27.5 here in the UK. For the US guys that’s 840 ng/dl.
My free t was high normal but in range.
Estrogen was mid low range.
I spoke at length with the endo about these theories of 5ar not working well and t being over-aromatised he said given my dht and 3adiolg (the best marker) were high and in his opinion “excellent” he said this mechanism was not valid (at least in my case). He said “your complete androgen profile is excellent and estrogen is low normal”
He said prescribing testosterone injections of any kind in my case would be completely sesenseless.
On the subject of neuro estrogen he was prepared to give me two weeks of anastrazole.
I m not sure if I ll take it tbh. He seemed very unconvinced about what has been discussed here. For what its worth he did make a lot of sense and the numbers seem to back him up. He thinks my pfs is not androgen or estrogen related.
He is running some autoimmunity tests next week.
Finbasteride, Arimidex is completely harmless, and so far every guy who has gone through this has had normal estrogen levels (myself included). What was your bioavailable test? Over all test can be deceptive as with PFS the total test can be high but low bioavailable.
It is definitely worth trying arimidex for a couple weeks and seeing what happens, all arimidex will do is increase your test. I am not sure I am familiar with your problems, can you tell us again what your PFS symptoms are? As your doctor is giving you Arimidex as it is harmless, you should try it, I have heard from several guys who improved just with arimidex and nothing more.
I have a friend who was slightly damages from finasteride, normal levels, was on a lot of stuff for depression and anxiety, I told him to try arimidex 0.25mg as needed, he says it changed his life. He doesn’t know what PFS is and still doesn’t really, but he does know finasteride gave him an estrogen problem now.
I would try airmidex 0.25mg 4X a day and see what happens if you don’t know what taking them as needed means. There is always the possibility that guys here may have other conditions that were triggered by Finasteride or that they think was caused by finasteride, that option has to always be open. I believe you told me once that you did not have sexual problems from PFS? Please again tell me your symptoms, and definitely try the arimidex as my friend had no sexual issues at all, just emotional and it fixed him.
He says he has only needed 0.25 3X in the entire week, he has been taking it as needed, let us know
Well, I went from nothing working, curved dick, weak erections, to horny, normal erections (like pre pfs), not as horny as I was before PFS, but that has to do with my 5AR activity and estrogen balance. As I get better I get more horny, but I am horny at least 3 X a day, muscle size and mass are bigger than a normal guy, mood is good. Morning erections, night erections etc…
I am tapering off Letrozole since my system has recovered quite a bit from masteron use, I plan to try to get by on Arimidex. Letrozole did lower my libido, and also a few guys I am talking to who are on it. I think it is great for emergencies if you have a crash or an estrogen surge you can’t control, nuke it with Letro. Let’s see how I can get by with arimidex now that my system recovered more. If I need 2-4 doses a day, that is acceptable, I have only needed Letro once in the last 2 days.
Letrozole is great to prime your system before you start propionate or suspension, crush your estrogen first and then start it and perhaps use arimidex to maintain. As you guys can see, things change around a lot, I suspect this may be why this condition has been so difficult to treat. It will be different for everyone, but the good news is everyone I have spoken to has improved with an AI, not one person will ever quit taking Arimidex that I have spoken to based on the improvements.
I may not have made this clear, but ALL PFS sufferers should try Arimidex alone first that may be all you need, in a lot of cases with nothing else. Wouldn’t that be something Finbasteride, if that was all you needed? It is not unconventional either, for years doctors have been prescribing arimidex to guys with low testosterone to boost their own, or with high estrogen.
Thanks JQD,
I plan on starting Testosterone Propionate and Arimidex, shortly. Obtaining from black market sources, so will go the Propionate route as opposed to suspension. I will report all my progress on this thread. Getting too old now to dick around. Just turned 37. Life is passing me by…
The Aromasin did work at 6.25mg every 3 days - to every day. Boners were very hard, some libido returned, and restored ability to have sex without PDE5 inhibitors. Dosed at 12.5mg every day for several days, and boners/libido waned. Think I drove estrogen down too low.
Will keep everyone updated. My GP wants to put me on TRT, but that was several years ago. Here in Canada, getting prescribed TRT is more difficult. Will try black market stuff first
Tumble, while aromasin kills estrogen it also causes dht to suppress which in a normal guy they may not notice, but in us it makes a huge difference. That is why you started to fade, not because you lowered your estrogen too much, I told you it would eventually shut you down.
If you are going on the black market order suspension, it blows propionate away, I’m currently waiting for my suspension. I ordered it from the black market, been waiting for it to arrive and also waiting for dr Jacobs to have his girl get it done for me.
I would def order the suspension, while prop works, suspension kicks ass.
JQD,
How is Arimidex harmless? I just googled it and found people complaining about some serious sides. I didn’t find a “ArimidexHelp.com” thank god, but it doesn’t seem to be “Harmless.” Doesn’t Arimidex inhibit an enzyme like Propecia?
Thanks.
Just a few questions about AI’s. Has anyone tried ATD or 6-oxo for this kind of stuff? Are they not strong enough? Just reading up on this stuff and was wondering your thoughts JQD and 702. I’m just surprised there isn’t more experimentation with different AIs on here.