Haha! Thats right Lukas, lets keep those fingers crossed. These two are like a chemist, doctor, neurologist and researcher rolled up into one.
Lukas, IConquerProceia!! Awesome! That’s almost how I feel. At this point, I’m just focused on vanity, gains, no water, and the brain fog (which is a legitimate PFS left over symptom).
JQD,
I believe you are spot on brotha. My own experience leads me to the same conclusion. I have told others that I believe we need to keep a sustained pressure on 5ar to perform, and do not use any DHT or derived compounds while keeping estro low.
The masteron I used was propionate, which is fast acting. I have used it both at 200mg eod, and even low doses down to 5mg eod. DO NOT USE IT AT ALL!! Also, the same with Primo. Do not use it! It will set you back, even Proviron - do not use any of them. When I used the Masteron at 200 eod, it was for 4 weeks, and it took about a month to stabilize post use. When I used it very low dose (I was experimenting) it took about a week to recover. I had to use Letro in both scenarios to recover. Yes, when on Mast you feel like a rock star, but it’s not sustainable, and it’s not recovery. I would avoid it.
I’m going to stay the letro hard for 30 days at 2.5mg a day. It will cursh e, crush me, but that’s fine. After that, I’m going to slowly titrate it. Perhaps over 16 weeks I may recover the final 5-10% of missing 5ar function I have.
One thing I can say that is odd, which I have noticed after each cycle when I do not cruise (come completely off) that I still have brain fog, but it is lessened and the results stay. That has been my glimmer of hope, that and how we respond to compounds on cycle, letting me know we are on the right path.
I have TNE (pharm grade test suspension) and I may start cycling that at 10-15mg daily vs. test prop. They are both very similar, though at such low dose and it’s quick-in-quick out qualities, it will convert more to DHT, at least that has been my experience. When I use TNE or Prop, my hair sheds far more and I hold less water, which tell me more DHT less estro. Also, I have labs that show it as well.
Hey JQD, this has not been addressed in this thread, and I really see the logic in your theories after reading the entire thread, so here goes: I’m one of the guys here who suffers from most digestion issues. Constipation (sometimes for 5 days), haven’t had a fully brown stool since stopping fin (they’re all green), so I assume I also have terrible nutrient absorption issues. I eat really healthy, and do some cardio, btw. Do you think your protocol alone will help with the liver/gut issues, or should I consider stuff like Nyastatin et al in combination? I reaaaalllyyy do not want to start a c a n dida argument discussion here or derail the thread, just wanted to hear your two cents. Thanks.
Great. Thanks for the recap!
I have some more dumb questions. Sorry.
What is “cruising” and what is “AI”?
I’m going to see if I can get some of this stuff. It’s worth a shot. I did propecia for 14 years. I have brain fog real bad, but no libido issues.
My only concern is what happens once you stop taking the protocol? Is it going to give me another PFS crash? Will it be worse than a PFS crash? We probably don’t know yet.
Unfortunately I have not been able to experiment with Suspension yet, but it is in the USA now and I am just waiting for it to arrive here. Your experiences substantiate my theories that suspension is the ultimate protocol for PFS, I wonder why you bother with Propionate when you can access suspension so easily. You should try testosterone suspension with just arimidex, see if you can get by that way, suspension quickly converts to DHT which will stimulate 5AR and has only a 3 hour half life.
Propionate still has a 24 hour ester to deal with, ester means more estrogen, I agree Letro is strong, I would be happier if I could get by on just arimidex, that is my goal, to get to that point. Remember that DHT kills estrogen, so you should use suspension and induce as much DHT as possible, also the brain fog is undoubtably caused by a lack of the 5AR type 3 enzyme which is responsible for neurological and ocular function.
I have not been able to find Test suspension locally, only through the net, so I will PM you and ask where you get it, I may hit up Dr Jacobs and see about him prescribing it as I know some compound pharmacies dispense it, I really should get on that. I have just had good results with my current protocol and have not had the need to. You can always use test suspension a few times a day, remember that DHT has a 5 day half life, the more you build up the more you have to kill off estrogen.
Also, you did not know till now that Aromasin is counterproductive, it was designed to work like DHT without the masculinizing effects for women with breast cancer. In our case it acts on our DHT like Masteron or Proviron does, every time you take Aromasin your DHT suppresses. A couple guys here say it helps them, but they don’t understand that while it is suppressing their DHT, it is also killing off some estrogen, but that point they are at is a brick wall they will never get past.
I believe masteron backfired on you because you were on too much testosterone, too much masteron and not enough AI, my theory is the right balance of all would create an optimal profile, but the hell if I am going to do that now. It is also worth noting that before I figure out what these crashes were and how to counter them, while on testosterone I would get better, crash and then get worse and then recover better than before I crashed. Now that I have figured out these crashes as estrogen and how to prevent and reverse them, about 1 to 2 times a month they occur, I need more letrozole when it happens, and then when I get past it (usually about 3 days) I have a DHT surge and seem to have made new gains.
Though, in each time they occurred I was able to attribute it to taking some estrogenic supplement or HCG or something. The estrogen backfire from Masteron will not affect your muscles, libido or penis, just emotional effects and water retention (and who knows what else). If there were an injectable form of proviron it would work perfect without the need for an AI, but for some reason such does not exist. Anyway, I am all for restoring 5AR, I think propionate is the best of the bad choices, out of all that exists, suspension is the best, propionate is the second best.
How long have you had PFS and how much arimidex do you need and how frequently on your propionate dose? Why such a low dose of only 15mg? My 20mg dose is only because I simply cannot handle anymore, 10mg would be better, but I refuse to go that low, I am also too vain. I am curious, why in the HELL would you choose propionate over suspension having access to both? I know Estrogen can drive people insane, is that why? lol You yourself even stated it converts more to DHT, so you know that! It doesn’t stay behind to exhaust our suppressed 5AR, hell, suspension may require NO AI or very little.
The ultimate and final protocol as I have been saying for a long time is testosterone suspension, it may be all we need with a little arimidex. It is the perfect storm, a drug which induces our own DHT, nothing works like suspension, I know that simply based on the mechanics of its action.
BTW. Ihatepropecia, be careful, Frustrated may warn you of the “dangers” of using hormones he knows jack shit about. Also what you are saying doesn’t match what Frustrated’s superior doctor tells him and what his biology books say, so expect him to correct you and explain how you are wrong even though you are experiencing it.
I would try just taking arimidex before you go into this protocll if you have no sexual issues, order arimidex and try taking 0.25 or 0.5 as needed, or try more. See what happens after a few days, a week, that might be all you need. If that’s your only problem I wouldn’t jump into the protocol yet, start small and move up.
One of the most deluded posts I have ever read on the internet. And that’s saying something.
If you care to do your research at all you will see that ihatepropecia recovered from pfs with the exception of mild brainfog using methods jqd would find laughable. Gut treatment and elimination diet + supps.
He uses test for vanity purposes now as he confesses a few posts up. I think most of those posting here think that he is using it to extract himself from pfs hell. Which as he stated, he clearly is not, as he already extricated himself from the worst of his troubles years ago…
gham, an AI is an Aromatase Inhibitor. Cruising is the time when you take only test between cycles to maintain your gains.
JQD,
Thanks for the info man. The only information I was not totally familiar with was that Aromasin could mimic DHT to the body, hence cause it to lower 5ar activity. That information is new.
I used suspension for prework out multiple times, makes me a beast. I never used it for cruising because no one I know does, though that doesn’t mean it might not be the perfect tool for us. I know it will produce more DHT, especially I we have letrozole dialed in. Also, I never did it because of the daily injections, though I don’t mind dailies at all if it will yield some light into this area. My first suspension dose tomorrow at 10mg.
finbasteride you are a prick but you are right…looks like Ihatepropecia did state his theory was that fin effected our liver and guts…look it might of but that doesnt explain why someone I know got fucked from 5 days worth of propecia…it has to be this altering of the 5AR system makes more sense…and altered hormones control everything from digestion, mood etc…fuck this im going for a walk this is confusing me…
I still believe its gotta be hormone related therefore hormone/manipulation to fix it!..brain fog was even explained by JQD being the 3 enzyme dysfunction.
Suspension is a game changer, use that alone and try getting by with just arimidex, you may not need more as it has no ester to stay behind and aromatize. It converts to dht and is gone, that’s exactly what we need. Tell me, have you tried Primobolan with testosterone? It is another dht derivitive, I have a bottle here which I won’t be using as I am restoring dht and 5ar, but just curious.
Before you go on Letro, quit everything and try suspension at 10-20mg a day and use arimidex as needed, when you get estrogen symptoms. My theory is that the dht induced by suspension will kill most of the estrogen and thus require less AI. Also, it will stimulate 5ar more than anything else, it should induce faster recovery.
How long have you had pfs? Have you been on hormones the entire time? My theory is that constant stimulation of 5ar over time induces recovery. Your recovery may have been from your steroid use over the course of time and constantly stimulating 5ar. Though I wouldn’t consider myself recovered till I respond normally to test without the need for a special protocol, or at least when I can take a 1 week ester, or perhaps less AI. Anyway, the suspension is the same principal as propionate only about 100x more effective.
I m actually a reasonable enough guy. I get irate at some of the stuff that gets posted. Claims of a universal cure using long tried treatments just seem ignorant. I m in correpsondance with a few guys who are being treated by endocrinologists who are experimenting on them conservatively. Two of the guys have had some success so there are ways of improving things. Unfortunately it seems different things help different guys.
Not too long ago i remember you were looking to recruit a suicide partner. Now you re looking for a treatment and going out with friends and even had the opportunity for a sexual encounter. So you deem life worth saving. This is a giant improvement from where you were. All without drugs…think on that.
Dude, have you read his posts? He is not a candidate for “pfs reversal” trials. He got himself out of deep shit years ago. 2009 to be exact. He used elimination diet, gut treatment and otc supps. Methods you consider a laughing matter.
From what I understand he now uses test in bodybuilder cycles for strengthening and aesthetic gains. He attributes majority recovery to a completely different mechaism. Its like you don’t know how to navigate a forum and read up user history and background.
Duplicate erased
Hey Finbasteride,
Thanks for summing it up. That is pretty accurate, though I recovered at the end of 2011. I had PFS for roughly 5-6 years give or take, something like that.
I’m back on the board because I want to find others that my do cycles or some trt and get their experience. I know that I still have some subtle challenges with PFS because it becomes pronounced when I’m on a cycle, though when I’m not on a cycle, I’m pretty normal besides the brain fog, so no real great worries here. I’m willing to explorer reasonable ideas that may bring me the last bit of recovery I need so I can cycle in a normal manner and make better gains.
I can say though that cycling has helped brain fog, and when on some cycles I don’t even have brain fog and libido is 200%. So far every time that I have come off a cycled and PCT, my brain fog was always improved and the results would stay. This is what leads me to believe that I may be on the right path to the final bit of recovery I need.
If you have some trt/hrt/cycle experience, I would love to hear it!
One of the most deluded posts I have ever read on the internet. And that’s saying something.
If you care to do your research at all you will see that ihatepropecia recovered from pfs with the exception of mild brainfog using methods jqd would find laughable. Gut treatment and elimination diet + supps.
He uses test for vanity purposes now as he confesses a few posts up. I think most of those posting here think that he is using it to extract himself from pfs hell. Which as he stated, he clearly is not, as he already extricated himself from the worst of his troubles years ago…
viewtopic.php?t=6115
[/quote]
One of the MOST deluded post you’ve read on the internet? Really? There is more to the internet than this forum.
Delude: impose a misleading belief upon (someone); deceive; fool.
And here I thought I was just sharing a little excitement with a fellow PFS sufferer…your claims of being reasonable are deluded mate, but entertaining.
I am not concerned with guys sharing ideas on this forum, right or wrong. But it is despicable when you act like the Pied Piper misleading desperate guys into believing you have found this universal cure that has not been proven. You already “knew” testosterone suspension was the best treatment before you even tried it and convinced others of the same.
One of the MOST deluded post you’ve read on the internet? Really? There is more to the internet than this forum.
Delude: impose a misleading belief upon (someone); deceive; fool.
And here I thought I was just sharing a little excitement with a fellow PFS sufferer…your claims of being reasonable are deluded mate, but entertaining.
[/quote]
I m not hear to kill hope. Its the only thing we have which is stonger than fear which is why a lot of us are still here. Myself included.
If you want to believe that jqd and ihp (who recovered via totally differnet methods than those being touted here) are akin to doctors, scientists and neuroendos do so. That belief is highly mislead. I believe.
I do hope it works our for you and you can verify it. Everything else aside.
To IHP, no I have not tried any hrt. I m still reeling from the last round of hormone manipulation I did with finasteride.
Not ruling it our though. Although my numbers are spot on.
Significant update: I convinced my local doctor to prescribe me testosterone suspension, it is my plan B while I wait for the Internet order to arrive.
This will be the holy grail for pfs, the most effecient means of stimulating 5ar and inducing dht, with only a 3 hour half life there is not much to aromatize! I'll be able to get by with very little AI, maybe even none, we shall see!
While I would like to get it through dr Jacobs, I don't feel like spending another $1500 in phone calls if I can get my local doctor to do it. I'll share the data with dr Jacobs after im on it, I'll keep you guys up to date. I have suspension on the way, just don't know when it will arrive, like to have options.
It’s worth noting that suspension is so strong, I have a theory that it might make it so that we can take a long acting once a week ester and use suspension to induce dht. If we are on a long acting ester, we can stimulate 5ar and induce dht which will kill estrogen.
I plan to ask her if she would be willing to treat other guys on the forum and become a pfs doctor, if she agrees I’ll let you guys know.
finbasteride there is not a day that goes by that I dont think of killing myself…and going into social situations…yes I force myself to do these ‘normal’ things but we all know they arent really enjoyable!..thats PFS for you…yeah I put up a front wherever I go…and that sexual encounter was lucky enough to get a 70% boner with cialis and was drunk so didnt care about small skinny penis shit …I told her I took a medication that shrunk my dick…it didnt feel good I was just doing it!..im hangin on with hope…and yeah without drugs I am maybe 5% better than maybe say 6months ago…anyways lets keep this thread more about results from trying test pro and AI and stuff.