Well that’s not my experience with Let. I took letrozole after running clomid for some time and it completely destroyed me. I went from low libido but being able to perform to no chance in hell of being able to perform. It took about 6 weeks to get back to pfs “normal”
Dude I saw an endo on the NHS a couple of years ago. I saw a professor also in London. They had never heard of using arimidex to control estrogen in men. To them it would be a totally off label use as it’s a womens cancer drug. Honestly, hormone therapy on the NHS is in the dark ages. Use the NHS to get your free lab results and anything “you” think you need like test etc. but go it alone. I wasted years getting no where.
In fact I knew far more about male hormone therapy than my own endocrinologist is some areas!
Hi all, I am posting this post as a last post for a while, I have been improving based on my theories and practice using testosterone propionate and letrozole to keep estrogen and testosterone high, so that my body can receive the signal of low 5 AR and low DHT and produce more, that is happening. In the past I was never able to recover as I would keep having estrogen dominant attacks (crashes), now I have disarmed them and decoded what they truly are. You will have noticed a theme of getting worse and then getting better throughout this forum, I always came out of a crash with gains I did not have before.
Now that I have eliminated the crash, I had an estrogen surge (which would have been a real hard crash before I knew…), I took extra Letro, killed it in its tracks, on the second day my DHT surged and improved in every area, muscle size and mass increased, libido, mood, sebum production etc… I theorize that these surges in Estrogen cause the system to respond by raising hormones to lower the estrogen, but they could not occur without keeping testosterone levels up with injections (or perhaps natural if your test is high enough).
This is a short term therapy, till I am recovered, then I will switch back to Arimidex and take it as needed, or hopefully quit it all one day.
This is what I think has happened, we took a drug that suppresses 5AR activity, our regulation system adapted by producing less 5AR, Finasteride made our system think we had too high 5AR and it compensated. When we quit finasteride, our system was producing less 5AR and less DHT and aromatizing test to estrogen, the chemical finasteride was concentrated in our blood and our systems perceived it as 5AR enzymes. When it was gone we pulled the rug out from under our system, we were stuck in a state of producing less 5AR and then that resulted in our testosterone being aromatized which created a paradox effect and shut down our DHT and testosterone (in some cases and forms).
A similar effect occurs on testosterone, a guy injects testosterone, he stops without a PCT, goes through a testosterone crash (which is just like a PFS crash when at HUGE doses), the same thing occurs but in a different system. It just shows this is how the human body reacts and is probably what is going on, it is an analogy with a parallel to how our body responds to testosterone. We inject it, our body produces less, increases estrogen, our body things we have too much testosterone, we stop and crash, and our body has to recover its natural testosterone, this is difficult to do without a PCT, and if you keep injecting testosterone it inhibits the recovery of that system (this is just a parallel, a metaphor).
The estrogen became dominant in our brains on a neurosteroidal level which started affecting all systems. The strange symptoms we have like ocular and neurological, are all results of suppressed 5AR enzymes as they reduce test to DHT and perform jobs. All that has to be done is lower estrogen and induce DHT via a fast acting testosterone (testosterone suspension will be the BEST), but propionate will due. Take the lowest doses of everything that works, try 10mg of propionate every other day and then increase to every day, we want to create the reverse situation finasteride created. We want our systems to adapt to the low DHT and low 5AR, don’t worry about your natural testosterone, it can be restored with HCG. Just don’t start HCG for a while, it is HIGHLY estrogenic and may slow the whole thing if you are not careful.
In fetuses with 5AR deficiencies, they inject them with high doses of HCG, I have always noticed a DHT surge with HCG, so it is a positive thing, but highly estrogenic, use it later, you have to find what works for you. You can approach this many ways, start with Arimidex, use it as needed, as you feel estrogen dominance coming on (PFS crash like symptoms). This can be panic, anxiety, trouble taking deep breaths, muscle twitches (especially in the calves). Letrozole is very strong, if arimidex doesn’t work, it will, don’t take my doses of letrozole, I am on too much as I want to maximize my muscle gain and recovery, it is about a balance.
Take the least that works of everything, so that you have room to increase, and you will find as you increase everything, the point at which you have gone too far and cannot control the estrogen without high doses of AI’s. As you recover you will have every one in a while a big surge of estrogen (which in the past would be a hard crash), counter it with the AI’s, after it is over you will come out on the other side more recovered, it is part of the recovery process.
Everything I have said is here in this thread, at this point I am answering the same questions and repeating the same information over and over. It is not helpful to this thread, someone looking to read it, or to you guys, you should study the thread and learn all I have relayed. I am still working with patient X1 and X2, both agreed to take a break from constantly watching the forum. This can be a positive and a negative place, lots of negative people can affect the psychological state of recovery. In studies done (ironically on finasteride), the placebo group had a significant percentage of LOW DHT! That’s right, people not given finasteride, but given a sugar pill or something, they thought they were given a drug to lower DHT and lowered their DHT.
Placebo is powerful, so during recovery you have to be careful what you put in your mind, anti hormone people and people warning about the dangerous of things, or negative people who post and argue, they hurt your recovery. Stupid ideas like androgen non-response or insensitivity are egocentric and arrogant, just because guys here couldn’t figure out how to get hormones to work, they declare themselves and others androgen insensitive.
As for the role of Masteron, it should ONLY be used if you for some reason after a year show no signs of improvement, but you all will, if not, this is the nuclear option. Masteron is useless without testosterone, if you inject it without being on testosterone it will stop working. Even guys who use it without PFS use it with testosterone, so the guys here that went on it, never used it correctly. Masteron bypasses the 5AR system completely, it worked for me, I reversed this 150% with it, but my estrogen rose for emotional aspects and water retention. I was also on a high dose of testosterone, I would have responded the same way taking that dose now on letrozole.
My muscles were huge and hard and dick super sensitive (more than pre PFS) and libido crazy, but that also came back 3 times via stimulating my 5AR. When I went off masteron I reset myself to when I first crashed from PFS, so it should be used as a last resort nuclear option if for some reason all else fails. Masteron propionate 50mg 3X a week on a reasonable dose of testosterone enanthate (long acting you can use with masteron) or even better the propionate protocol. There is a long acting version of Masteron called Masteron Enanthate, this could be injected 1 to 2 times a week with testosterone enanthate 1 to 2 times a week (together would be best).
You would need to control the estrogen, but not for the physical reason, the psychological, probably the neuroestrogen, but I had to, it got out of control as Masteron was suppressing my own DHT, but muscles, libido and dick were unaffected. You must recover your system, Masteron was fun, but I had to do this the right and hard way, what I am doing now. I have gotten to a point where I must go and enjoy life again, in 3 weeks I have made significant gains!
So taking a break from the forum is healthy for me and for you all and for patient X1 and X2, I will come back and report any significant updates. When testosterone suspension gets here (probably in a month), I will report back how that goes, but I already know it will be much better than propionate. Everything you need is here in this thread, keep posting your experiences here, so that you can help others. If you discover a working protocol that helps you, share it, this is not about my protocol, it is about my theories and concepts and how to work around them.
Do not be selfish, if you find something that works using these principals with arimidex and natural supplements, share it. All of you can change this forum from the negativity to all minds and bodies working on the same theories and treating it with similar protocols and getting better. This thread will become a place filled with recovery stories, it already has more positive responses than any other thread probably. Post! Help others, I will be back, do not worry, but this forum is addictive, you all know that. I was logging on all day on my iPhone, my laptop, at the gym, in my car, out with friends, hanging out, it was too much.
I think had it been a more positive place it would be better, but, either way, I am addicted, and so are patient X1 and X2, so all of us will go off the PFS grid and report back as we recover. I have reached a point where I can live my life, I do not have to fear a crash coming on, it is not possible, I have decoded it, defeated it, and I now am in control of PFS, it does not control me. Doctors know NOTHING about PFS, none of them, their convoluted theories and lack of protocols is proof of that. In the end it was a non-doctor who found a medical cure with drugs doctors know nothing about, ironic…
Work together, many of you will want to try this without testosterone, try different things. DHEA stimulates 5AR and up regulates 5AR enzymes, I go through phases of taking it and then it induces lots of 5AR and recovery, then I stop and then I seem to get better. DHEA induces estrogen, so Moonman told me about 7-keto DHEA which is a version that does not aromatize, I ordered it, will give it a try. I think DHEA is best to cycle, use it for a while, stop and see if your body improves more, not sure, but it does do something. DHEA was my first protocol for PFS, it was the first hormone that PFS responded to (on testosterone), it reversed it for several hours before estrogen got too high (I didn’t know at the time). I recommend many of you guys start with just Arimidex, try it to start at low doses and see what happens, try a low dose of letrozole and see what happens, I tend to think for PFS Letrozole will probably be the best bet, it works better. If you want to know where to buy things, just google “top steroid sites,” and you will find a good list, pick a name from that list and google that name with the word “reviews,” and pick the one with lots of good reviews.
Here is a natural supplement I recommend, the only natural supplement that actually helps with estrogen,
one study here
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21254914
It is called “DIM,” many of you have heard of it, you can buy it on amazon, also called “Diindolylmethane.”
I believe you can recover from this with test propionate and arimidex, but everyone needs different things, letrozole should be taken if required and lowest doses that possibly work. When the day comes to stop letrozole, you must taper off, finding out info will be on body builder forums. Body builders are ahead of doctors, HRT in the US evolved out of body builder science (not the other way around). Body builders are about 10 years ahead of endocrinologists and doctors with hormones (sorry guys, but it is true, despite what you think). Remember also that Estrogen when too high kills libido and when too low kills libido, so you have to go on how you feel. Use the smallest most effective doses, find a balance, try to get by on Arimidex if you can, try to get by on the lowest dose of letrozole, but if you have to use more, don’t be afraid to, just google arimidex and letrozole’s safety profile, Arimidex was studied at doses of up to 10mg a day with no adverse reactions (same with letrozole), the highest studied dose of Arimidex was 60mg (well tolerated), Letrozole I think about 30mg was well tolerated, so they are safe drugs.
Body builder forums are rich with information on hormones that include personal experience (that doctors lack), where there are no studies done, there are forums with body builders who have tried it and can explain it. When I return, I expect to see a different forum with lots of recoveries. Now, I have tried to leave here many times before only to come right back due to being addicted to this forum and now feeling compelled to help you all. This time I hope I stay away at least until I go on suspension and can have a significant update on a protocol change, or any real significant important updates that you guys need to know. You will have side effects from Arimidex and also from Letrozole, the side effects from letrozole do go away after you get used to it (if you have them). You will have some side effects like dry joints, they will probably come and go while on an AI. If your joints sometimes feeling dry bother you more than PFS then suffer with PFS, this isn’t a forever therapy, it is short term to get our system to recover. Once you go on an AI, you will notice your mood and mind change a lot, several guys have already told me this, and it has happened to me as well. Estrogen changes your mind and your thinking, makes you irritable, sad, depressed, dark, hopeless, suicidal, filled with panic and anxiety. I should mention I eat a very good diet, a company makes my food and it is all no gluten, I weight train for 1 hour 2 days straight, upper and lower body, then 1 day off, then workout for 2 days, then 1 day off, 1 hour workouts.
I am in contact with moonman, he is my friend, moonman will be my emissary, Moonman, I pass the scepter to you lol. At least I got Dr Jacobs to prescribe this protocol, once I get on suspension and figure out the best doses, I will email Dr Jacobs and update him, you all can tell him too. Tell him I am the guy who came up with the propionate protocol, he will know who I am.
Speak soon my friends, be strong, this isn’t goodbye, it is me taking a vacation from the forum, oh, and I must say thank you to PerfectGent again for donating money to the foundation in my name. I consider you all friends, taking a break doesn’t mean saying goodbye, but once all of you recover, this forum will become an empty and dead place, that is how I would like it, because all of you will be recovered, I will check my personal messages on here when I login from time to time, so you can try.
Will Write back Soon!
JustQuitDut, the First of His Name, King of Propecia Help, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First PFS Reversed Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, Protector of the Forum, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, called JQD, the Unburnt, Father of Dragons, and Slayer of Estrogen.
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I forgot to add, I add every medication I take, injection, time, dose, into my calendar of my phone, this way I can go back and see what I took and when and how I felt that week, it will help you to find the right doses for yourself. You cam add notes based on how you felt that day, you may forget in a month or 2. Good way to see progress, but making notes in your calendar every day. I am not sure I got this into my post, but I workout 2 days straight 1 hour weight training (upper and lower body days), then I take 1 day off. A company cooks and delivers my meals, they are all no gluten, I stay away from Gluton when I can as it makes me break out, I feel better when it is out of my system.
Oh yes, and I advise you not to do it, but I am on 1000IU HCG 1 time a week, highly estrogenic but keeps my own testosterone pumping. Our own testosterone works the same way as testosterone suspension, quickly converts to DHT and dissipates fast.
LOL. And he says considering androgen receptor insensitivity as a real concept is arrogant and egotistical. Not a very self aware fellow.
This is false.
I haven’t been in contact with JustQuitDut, and firmly disagree with the notion that this is a legitimate treatment for PFS.
Received a PM from another user asking how I was doing on this ‘protocol’, so just wanted to set the record straight that I don’t endorse this whatsoever.
I have been in contact with JQD. Perhaps our usernames are similar enough that he got them switched up.
On another note, I have the test prop and Arimidex now and will be trying the protocol. I’ll report back in a week with any results, positive or negative.
Good luck
One more post, I have to correct the record, yes I must have got the 2 names mixed up, also
SUPPLEMENT DIM - I have come to find out while it does metabolize estrogen, it also seems to block DHT argggggg, this is something you will have to decide for yourself, to what expect does it lower DHT, I am not sure, didn’t read into it. It was a scientific research paper, so I may cycle it or quit it, I don’t know. We don’t want anything that blocks DHT, just needed to fix this and post it.
m.jbc.org/content/278/23/21136.full
Read they study on Dim, very good supplement thoigh, also, I’m not in contact with Davey, but I’ll hear through moonman.
Alright man. Please keep us updated. Good luck.
hey fellas, I think with JQD on hiatus for a little while the fair and smart thing to do would be to not argue about his protocol and
only post if you are TRYING it ok? or at least taking steps towards getting on board.
For example im speaking with Dr Jacobs tonight around 5. im gonna ask him to order blood labs so I can got o my gp and get the wheels in motion.
Lord, I hope this protocol fixes us, truly.
why not use Triptorelin to raise testosterone ??
I tried triptorelin a few months ago. Had before and after blood work and it did not raise my testosterone at all. It did, however, drive both my LH and FSH levels down to almost nothing. I know it doesn’t make sense that my T levels didn’t budge as a result, but yeah that’s what happened.
Oh ok, well Im excited about this anyway. Its going to a be an exciting 2015.
SG8627, about your question before I didnt do anything in particular to get back sensitivity just came back slowly and much better now…of course still ED issues and all the rest…you know the drill…does anyone still get severe head pressure?..this is not going away for over a year…and depression is out of this world…
I am waiting on blood tests to do this week ordered from DR Jacobs then I will consult him…maybe we should mention test suspension as another viable option?
I am also gonna consult DR Mark Gordon in LA…who from a radio interview said he was able to get PFS people to respond in 6months…using clomid, hcg and testosterone (together) i wanna speak with him directly and ask about it first hand from his mouth.
it is exciting this theory, but also very scary because if it doesnt work then where else to go?..we’ve already concluded this has to be hormonal (neuro steroidal)…I truly will be out of things to try if this doesnt work…and that study that is gonna get published next year is not going to be a major breakthorugh as Ive spoken with someone there and not much hope in finding a breakthrough.
anyways guys if you can afford please organise appointment with Dr Jacobs…more people who see him the better it will be…or even DR Mark Gordon who acknowledged finasteride causes depression by limiting DHT
hey lukas, thanks for the input man. I really hope mine comes back too.
Anyway, spoke to Jacobs tonight for about a half an hour and he’s on board with me trying out this protocol.
Just gotta get my blood labs to him and then here goes nothing I suppose.
I hope im not hyping this thing in my mind too much. I’m really hoping after injection I get like puberty horny or close to it. That’d be something, shit.
Hi guys, I had to post as I was told a couple people here were starting my protocol. It will be difficult for the first month while your DHT builds up, you will have spikes in eatrogen and countering them with Letrozole or Arimidex will be required. I personally do not believe this can be done without letrozole, but maybe everyone is different. I also found that daily injections worked better than every other day as the letrozole suppresses estrogen, the propionate induces dht which then kills the eatrogen that accumulates in your system. DHEA upregulates 5ar enzymes, from day one it was effective at getting me to respond to test for several hours. I quit it as it was so effective it was masking my recovery. Now I have added it to my protocol, 1 time a day, I have had amazing results with it at 50mg. You can buy DHEA anywhere, it’s just a supplement.
1 month into my 5ar restart and all my PFS symptoms are reversed, if I miss my doses they come back, stick it through. I currently only need about 2.5mg of Letro once a day! My system has recovered enough to start reducing test to dht and regulate itself more. I recommend you start at 10mg of prop every other day and then increase to every day if you can. It’s important to keep stimulating dht and lowering eatrogen.
I have been enjoying life again, this condition is reversible, study my forum and research, I will return in the future, I just wanted to post this update. Things are improving every month, when I say improving, I mean stronger responses to test, but I have pfs reversed. It won’t be long before I’ll be able to handle a longer eater of test again I feel, maybe in another couple months.
Speak to you guys in the future!
Thanks JQD!
How much DHEA should we take a day? With an AI?
50mg a day, when you get on testosterone you will notice a boost in dht after you take it and it kicks in, I never wrote about it as I had assumed others here surely knew it. Turns out DHEA upregulates 5ar, I always started recovering after steady use of it on my protocols. I would quit as it made me break out and masked my recovery as everything seemed reversed.
It is worth noting that nothing stimulates 5ar in my experience like DHEA, taking it while on test will help this recovery. It is also estrogenic, so just 50mg once a day, all about balance. I am at a point now after a month on this therapy where I forget I have pfs often. Stick to it, it’s worth it!!! And Letrozole is essential!
I forgot to add, before you start propionate, take leteozole 2.5mg a day for 1 week to lower your estrogen as much as you can and prime your body before starting. Coincidentally legendary’s doctor said the same thing, I came up with it before reading his thresd.
What’s the difference between leteozole and arimidex? Sorry if that’s already been answered but this topic is like a bible. A simplified tl;dr version would be really useful with some FAQs.
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