well I think, I mean I cant speak for everyone else, but in my case in terms of hormones etc, for the most part for everything is fine,
Which is not to see 8 months of dht reduction didn’t leave behind some physical damage to my junk and what not.
ie, prostate, penis, seminal vesciles (spelling)
so I def don’t need my T jacked up or anything, if anything at all its off the charts
but dr Jacobs saud mwith my numbers I should be feeling great and I feel OK id say
could be depression, that’s definitely a possibility.
I just need a boost to sort of put my body in a healing recovery mode
see what im saying dude?
Do you have low sensitivity and libido too? I don’t think it’s depression if this all happened after you took Propecia. There’s a direct link between Propecia and sexual side effects; depression is either a consequence of that sexual deprivation or another direct side effect, but the latter tends to be more in men heavily hit by PFS, i.e. not us.
I’m on clomid from Dr. Goldstein’s prescription. clomid is not like exogenous test. it wont shut you down, so no HCG is required. It’s the safest way to raise your T is this game. Clomid stimulates you pituitary, signalling it to produce more test. I responded well to Clomid and had my T in the upper third range. The guys who dont respond to it well should consider exogenous T but everyone else should start with Clomid. Bear in mind JQD has been taking exogenous hormones way before PFS, so for someone like him he will probably need exogenous test.
I was on Clomid for 4 months. Now I have added an AI and my side effects have been fading. I can get the sides to go away when I take AIs.
JQD is not hypothesizing a crazy concept. He is verifying what Legendary’s endo has known for probably quite some time. It would be a little upsetting if 100% of the problem with PFS has always been estrogen dominance due to lack of 5AR activity (test gets aromotised). That concept is so simple that it doesn’t explain why all the “renowned” endos couldn’t figure out what was happening.
I hope this is not too good to be rue, but I feel great.
Newbie86,
are you on JQD’S protocol?
I only ask because u say u feel great so im curious
Hello JustQuitDut I am very thankful for your time and effort to help us all.
I will take letrozole 2.5mg as you said for 30 days, but I have read that people using this in a PCT thinks 2.5 mg/day is too high of a dose and will produce severe side effects. They recommened 0.6mg/day instead of 2.5mg/day. Is 2.5mg necessary and is it safe?
//andreasoz
I passed a message JQD wrote me to a doctor I know who is very well versed in post-finasteride-syndrome, or at least as well versed as one can possibly be given there are still unknowns.
The take away was that JQD’s theory is not totally off base, it is in line with how several of the PFS doctors have been approaching treatments but it isn’t a radically novel thought. There seem to be two main theories at this point, the first being that 5-alpha reductase activity has been disrupted making it difficult for the body to produce important downstream metabolites (DHT, neurosteroids etc). JQD may be right in that boosting DHT levels while ensuring that estradiol levels don’t get too high may be beneficial. PFS patients very possibly have systems that are out of wack so normal levels may not be sufficient to jumpstart their systems. This is uncharted territory and nobody knows what kind of levels or range of levels make sense at this point. His thoughts are in line with what other people are thinking but are somewhat oversimplified as this is a very complex illness.
JQD has totally ruled out that there is a problem at the androgen receptor level and at this point that cannot be done. That may be the other mechanism that is thought to have been a consequence of Propecia usage gone wrong. This is something that is currently being investigated.
The bottom line is that if you decide to try these suggested protocols, it is strongly recommended to do this with the oversight of a doctor. The use of synthetic steroids and bodybuilder drugs as had been suggested are definitely not recommended as the idea may be sensible but not much is really known about the side effects or regulatory consequences of taking them in mainstream medicine. JQD has stated they are very safe but really this is not known. If you are willing to guinea pig yourself, these ideas are not totally out of line but have unknowns and risks. It was also mentioned that it is not wise to do this without proper lab tests.
That’s basically all I have to say. This idea is theoretical and the approach is experimental but don’t jump into this thinking it is anything close to a guaranteed success before we begin to hear tangible reports.
“If you can’t explain it to a six year old, you don’t understand it yourself.” Albert Einstein
The reason endo’s have not figured it out is because they have not been able to conceptualize everything in simple terms. My theories are correct, I’m proof of it, I have reversed this condition and anyone who has understood me and tried using various methods has had only positive results. Newbie are you going to get letrozole?
There are no problems at the androgen receptor level, anyone who thinks that should join dr Jacobs in his theories that the body is too "stressed," to respond to testosterone. Finasteride merely suppressed 5ar activity, I have seen NO evidence to suggest that anyone here has any form of androgen receptor damage. The only problems I have seen are very simplified understanding of hormone medicine, using very bad drugs that cannot work with pfs (such of testosterone cypionate).
Please provide me one piece of evidence that this is androgen receptor damage besides the fact that everyone on this site has been playing with hormones (as well as their doctors) and not keeping estrogen under control and not using a quick acting short ester testosterone?
I find it extremely egotistical and dangerous to be declaring androgen receptor damage when no such evidence exists, it comes from the lack of know how on how to use the proper tools to do this and do it right. Taking 1mg of arimidex a day isn't going to cut it with cypionate, even Letro won't cut it with cypionate (the most highly estrogenic form of test).
Finasteride suppressed our 5ar like testosterone suppresses our own testosterone production, both require induction and stimulation to return to normal. In the case of suppressed 5ar, there is no natural mechanism to deal with a potent 5ar inhibitor's suppression of 5ar, only slight fluctuations and adaptations. Many here (doctors included) have given up and come up with this ridiculous and dangerous theory when the explanation is very logical and simple.
Furthermore I have put my theories into practice and reversed my condtion and my 5ar system is recovering. This is a very new approach, operating off of how you feel vs taking a scheduled dose of an AI on a scheduled day (since this is occurring on a neurosteroidal level which is undetectable), that simply doesn't work with pfs, and you need a special version of testosterone to make this work. While I appreciate your doctor understands my theory and finds it has merit, perhaps he can explain why he has not controlled estrogen the way I have and stimulated 5ar the way I have using test propionate? Has he ever prescribed letrozole 2.5mg 1 to 2x a day on testosterone propionate daily injections? If not why not? Egocentricity, I used to hire and fire doctors, I spent years interviewing them and checking out their qualifications, my respect for doctors does not reach your level.
Perhaps you should consider building a temple to doctors and worshipping them, by the way, what protocols have doctors used on you besides test cypionate and a small dose of AI or perhaps even Aromasin which makes this condition worse? I'm curious why a lowly non doctor such as myself with such a simple theory has been able to reverse this in myself and those following me are posting improvements? Well, shucks, maybe I'm just not smart enough to understand why, I guess your doctor is right, my theory is too simple, he knows best, perhaps you should go on cypionate and aromasin again.
Then again, since my spelling and grammar is off due to typing on my iPhone, frustrated will tell you not to pay much attention to me. Better to be a eunuchs and be on the safe side! Don't believe a guy with misspelled words, always trust doctors, after all, they did make the brilliant suggestion of putting you on finasteride, power to the doctors!!Nopecia, there is a treatment for low test, if you don’t want to take it then why do you keep complaining? Accept your low testosterone and move on with your life. Testosterone was amazing and changed my life till pfs came around and I had to tweak it to get it to work, but that feeling is coming back again.
My anti aging doctor disagrees and would consider you low test, also according to him and every other U.S. anti aging doctor, hcg prevents any testicular shut down. You guys just are behind in the UK as you don’t have this field of medicine there.
JQD, how much will test be suppressed if we use 10-20mg of test prop??
Don't worry about it, it comes back with hcg, this fear that it will never come back is bullshit based on guys in the UK with a medical system that is behind ours in the US. I'm not attacking UK guys, I'm just explaining where these strange fears come from. It doesn't make much sense to me, I would be more concerned with fixing your pfs than suppressing your testosterone. There is a treatment for low T, but there isn't for pfs till now, I suggest you get it fixed before it continues to damage your system.
Estrogen also causes cancer, body builders abuse their bodies using 1000mg of test a week, that's a low ball! For decades! Then they use pct's and bring it back. I wouldn't worry about 10mg and it's likely due to pfs your test is screwed anyway. You may have high numbers but lower 5ar and may need higher test than what you expect to work. Don't govern yourself by fear, rather by logic, those here who spread fear are living estrogen dominant which induces fear and panic.You took testosterone before PFS? Why? You shouldn’t need to if you’re a healthy young male, unless you had some other problem…
I come from a different world then you friend, I live in south Florida where youth and health and beauty is a big deal. Most guys who can afford it over the age of 28 go to anti aging doctors here and turn into stallions. It changed my life, tons of energy, my body got huge and muscular, I felt like I was 18 again, and the doctor I went to is a famous anti aging doctor.
I haven’t been sick in 6 years, even around sick people, it’s why I was able to handle pfs better than others, using my knowledge to remodulate the protocols though. It’s worth adding that I was on finasteride for 13 years and my testosterone was pretty low, about 500. You guys might consider that ok, different strokes, I got my 68 year old dad on it all and he is off all his medications, is like a 21 year old man again. I made him train with a trainer as well, he couldn’t before the hormones due to medical conditions that the hormones reversed.
I am keeping him on hormones so he never goes senile as testosterone prevents senility snd diabetes and a multitude of other health conditions. I also don’t want him to get Cancer and the new prevailing thought of anti aging doctors and new research shows estrogen causes cancer. In older men with declining hormones cancer rates go up and Cancer isn’t caused by testosterone or dht, if it were younger guys with surging hormones would get it.
Instead we see this in older men with higher estrogen levels and low testosterone, not enough dht to fight off the estrogen which causes prostate cancer. I felt like shit before I went on testosterone, I mean, I didn’t know the difference till I went on it. It changed my life, my greatest fear was having to stop it, then I wind up with some exotic medical condition that makes it stop working. So I spent 6 months fighting it till I figured out how to get my body to respond to testosterone again.
I also thought I had become androgen insensitive, easy to believe if you don’t have enough knowledge to fix this. Testosterone prevents a multitude of diseases, guys who are older and have strokes or heart conditions are older men out of shape who go on testosterone and think they are 21 again and eat garbage and have a lot of sex and don’t workout and make their situation worse. Testosterone is a tool that can help you regain your youth, but like anything it must be used correctly, that’s why I made my dad workout with a trainer. He had tried before he was on the hormones but due to his medical conditions high blood pressure and other things, he could not. After being on HGH precursors and testosterone, he started growing younger. There is a book called “growing younger,” written by an endo I believe, I forget, but this is the medicine of Hollywood and the rich and famous. I ran a company that dealt with that, so I helped him.
Everyone is different, guys in the UK come from a different culture, they are perfectly happy growing older and weaker and all, I’m not. I don’t see why a 21 year old should be stronger than me, so now that’s not the case. This is another discussion though, but I call it stage 1 pfs, when finasteride lowers your testosterone. There are guys who want to recover naturally, I encourage them too, I am not here to convince anyone to do anything, just share knowledge.
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How many of those guys have pfs? In a normal guy yes, but it is dependent on the estrogen level, our situations are different. It’s worth noting they studied it in doses of up to 30mg and it was well tolerated
rxlist.com/script/main/mobil … monopage=5
It’s not like I want to take letrozole, but if I don’t I’ll end up back like all of you, so it’s my choice, we all make choices, we chose to take finasteride too. I don’t believe this is a forever thing, I think we will recover eventually. I’m not saying letrozole is a cure or treatment, if your testosterone is low it will just make you feel worse. You need to get your levels checked, if it’s high or good then consider letrozole 2.5mg a day, if you actually have pfs, see how you feel.
I recommended to people to start with arimidex with is a lot easier to tolerate, I did have sides with Letro at first, they have gone away and I don’t have any now, I don’t know what I would do without it. I don’t know what else to tell you guys, it’s a personal choice, I recommend you try to do this through a doctor, dr jacobs if possible. If you don’t know what you are doing and are lost, don’t just start taking things, you should go to dr jacobs, he can treat you remotely.
Oh it is true, this is estrogen dominance, I have been managing my condition based on these principals and everyone who has followed me has only improved. My theories are a little more extensive than legendary's doctor's. I'm not sure everyone catches on completely yet, but everyone is getting there.
I want to evolve this forum from trying to figure this out to finding the best treatment protocol, I know that I'm right, and so far it's only being proven so by experience. Still I see people posting here lost and clueless and saying things like they can't respond to test.
Maybe once my theories are proven, Mew will post a treatment protocol and an explanation of what is going on. I'm sure you can understand why I couldn't just leave and take this information with me, I had to fight and get everyone to read it and reverse people.
The two guys I'm working with believe it or not are still waiting on their drugs, problems keep happening, but it's only a matter of time at this point.Exactly what I am thinking and hoping to be true!!
That this is more to do with some issue we are having with being extremely sensitive to estrogen. Makes sense… We have had an important part of the " hormonal ingredients" taking away (are 5ar function) which is perhaps the most important peice of the puzzle. Now that this piece is missing the female hormone “takes over” or effects us in a much stronger way. JQD really is a smart guy. I knew it the first time I seen his posts.
Only thing I’m not in complete agreement with is how to fix this issue. Does decreasing estrogen really increase 5 ar activity? Does testosterone really have two diff options to convert to? DHT or estrogen? And the more estrogen it’s converting to the less DHT it’s converting to? Are these pathways truly linked in the way JQD says they are?
I have been asking my self these questions constantly. I am border line obsessed. I truly believe that JQD is right on the money with this estrogen domience/estrogen sensitivity issue due to lack of 5AR function.
I just don’t know if the key to fixing it is decrease estrogen. I still believe the answere may be to increase 5 AR activity which will give us " that ingredient" back and make us not so sensitive to estrogen. I only say this because when I took armidex I did not get better and actually got worse around the time I started it.
But the more people who try it with success the better chance that there is that I’m giving an AI another try.
I am also considering my options carefully
Not sure of the precise terminology or underlying mechanism, but estrogen is a KEY factor in my condition.
My T is in the normal range but on the lower end of normal. (Some docs consider this normal even though its just a few points above LOW)
My estrogen also turned up moderate/normal on a blood test.
But I could feel the estrogen in my body and it was killing me: low energy, nipple sensations, female pattern hair loss, puffy pecs, prostate enlargement etc.
I have done a number of things in the past 2 months which have helped my condition (and I will post details in my thread soon).
Just wanted to mention that I have used clomid recently and could feel the elevated T (which was nice, reduced some of my aches n pains) but also the elevated E (puffy pecs). So the net effect was neutral.
I then stopped taking clomid and started arimidex .25mg E2D alone.
I had much better erection quality, whiter thicker sperm appearance though volume wasnt much (arimidex is sometimes used by guys with low sperm counts) and better flaccid size within 24 hours. I also pissed like a racehorse…lots of fluid, where it was stored, I dont know. All of these things helped shoot my confidence upward. (Unfortunately, I’m still lacking the raging libido or any serious libido).
It’s still early days (about a week). I would suggest guys try the AI alone at a very LOW dosage before supplementing with exogenous T.
My comments should in no way discredit JQD. What im doing came from him. (The estrogen dominance theory has been bouncing around here for a while, but folks were trying different treatments which didnt work well (DIM, also some might recall Chinese Bitters – an old Chinese lady made this elixir to help the liver shed estrogen).
I really believe JQD is on to something and I’m far from recovered on my regimen which borrows from him. Thing is, I still want kids and TRT is not an option for me just now.
Finally, it was difficult to get the AI and other meds in Canada but I found a way. It’s a pita but it worked – pm for details.
I wanna go on record as saying i think the answer will be testosterone suspension plus 100-200mg of masteron weekly maybe some AI as needed.
Thats the one two punch.
JQD, why are you reticent to reintroduce masteron to your regime, its pretty well established that DHT is much less suppressive then testosterone. I saw a study showing that long term use of proviron at 100-150mg a day was mildly suppressive at best.
Perhaps you feel administering DHT directly would suppress 5ar?
In my research of unorthodox TrT regimes it seems guys are getting amazing synergies by adding masteron to there trt, like reduced SHBG and less estrogen.
Even if masteron just means we use less pharmicutical AI thats a big win is it not?
Thanks 5 alpha, but you are just not understanding what I am saying yet, that is ok, doctors don’t, so I don’t expect it to be easy, but you will eventually. We are not more sensitive to estrogen, our 5ar has been suppressed (like when you suppress testosterone and your body lowers test production) the same thing happened with our bodies lowering 5AR production due to finasteride tricking our system into thinking we had too much 5AR enzymes.
Without enough production the testosterone is aromatized, but where this is causing problems is on a neurosteroidal level (in the brain), that is why anti estrogens help, and hormones help (when done right), but this all doesn’t show up in tests. Some of your questions need not be asked, they are established facts of medicine, testosterone DOES convert to estrogen when there is not enough 5AR to reduce it to DHT, that is a fact.
Solving this is not done by simply taking Arimidex, we have all found out Arimidex is really not the best option for some of us here, letrozole is. However, when you are dealing with natural testosterone production, you want to start very low, there is a huge difference between exogenous testosterone and natural testosterone, estrogen gets much higher when you inject test, that is why we need such high doses, but natural testosterone, you would need lower doses. The doses you would need would still be body builder doses though as your body is acting like it is on mega steroids.
My protocol is designed to INCREASE 5ar activity, that is the whole purpose, it is a fast acting testosterone (like our own) that quickly converts to DHT and leaves little behind to convert to estrogen. Propionate is the shortest ester version of testosterone, it is a 24 hour ester, but suspension has no ester (like our own testosterone). Suspension is so androgenic and converts to DHT so much that guys don’t use it due to acne and hairloss etc., plus it has a short half life of only 3 hours, so multiple injections would be needed by body builders or whoever. In our condition it would stimulate 5AR and DHT, DHT has a 5 day half life and it kills estrogen, so we want our DHT high. We can block estrogen conversion all we want, but if there is no DHT to kill off the estrogen when the AI wears off, we are in trouble.
If you didn’t feel any better with arimidex, then you need to inject testosterone, but you should get your levels tested again, you said you had high testosterone (like 800 or 900 or something)? When your testosterone is too high, your body reacts by aromatizing testosterone into estrogen, thus when your estrogen levels are high your body detects that your testosterone is so high that your body can’t keep up with it, so a safeguard activates and then starts lowering testosterone and DHT and shutting you down since it thinks testosterone is too high.
So your levels by now may not be what they were when you last got tested, by now they may be very low, if they are high I recommend trying letrozole 2.5mg a day and seeing what happens after a couple weeks, if you feel better etc… My method is to keep estrogen low enough for our suppressed 5ar system to handle testosterone, but even with that we can only handle low doses (not too much to overwhelm our systems). So that’s complicated and requires a quickly converting form of testosterone that doesn’t remain long after to convert to estrogen. The hope is that in time our 5 ar will produce more and more and that particular system will recover. I do not know how long this takes, I do know that in 3 months of stimulating my 5ar, (using my own HGH as an AI, stimulating it with hgh precursors) my system recovered to 90% like 3 times.
Back then I didn’t know what these crashes were or how to combat them, so I would out of the blue start reducing more test to DHT, my 5ar activity would increase, and I thought I was recovered, everything responded normal. Then I would have an estrogen dominance attack (aka pfs crash). So I gave up and went down the DHT road, then I discovered this was all estrogen and controllable, so I decided to quit the DHT protocol and stimulate my own 5ar (like before) and control those crashes now that I know what they are and can. What happens if I spontaneously recover again while controlling estrogen? It is not spontaneous recovery, it is our 5ar system recovering.
I think we are in an estrogen dominance cycle that cannot be stopped easily, so we need to try and get our dht production up and far production up and suppress estrogen long enough for DHT to kill it off.
I am a bit stoned right now, so sorry if this didn’t come out clearly…