Great! Thank you for spreading the news and taking the time to “work” with us and give us so much information, and sometimes tailor-suited for each one of us!
Mark, I completely understand your fears, but these drugs have been used since the 70s I think, a long time though, blocking testosterone and estrogen is one thing, blocking dht is another. Most importantly, there are no instances of anti estrogens causing any problems. Body builders are often against finasteride (long before the medical community btw) body builder science is way ahead of endocrinology in a lot of ways, read these guys and they are impressive.
If there were even once instance of arimidex or letrozole causing these probs we would hear if it, finasteride yes, but not arimidex or letrozole. You can’t allow yourself to go on with pfs forever, you have to do something. I realize it’s scary and not fair for you guys who haven’t even been on hormones. At least I was already on them, but you took finasteride and made that choice, now you have to make a choice to fix it.
This isn’t forever, just till the damage heals, think of arimidex or letrozole as a bandage till our system recovers. It’s time to move beyond parasites and theories and into fixing this fucking curse, I’ll not stop till I take enough people with me to the other side, join me on the other side mark.
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Justquitdut- you said on another thread you even had the “curved damage” where you referring to penis curving to the left? Veins prominent etc. Did this fix all that for you? My legs got so thin with vericose veins. Think this protocol can reverse this damage. This all happened at my initial crash
JDq you said hcg is not really necessary but I do think its crucial in the protocol… because if the theory of estrogen dominance is right our testicles are already being shut down. with the xtra testosterone this will only get worse. also ive read a lot ofpeople saying that hcg is much much better for libido and mood than testosterone alone. I know we are different and this will give a lot of estrogen, but i do think working balls are a must just to support the whole process. maybe small doses of 500iu every 3 days or something, what do you think? keep up the great work
I will never understand that obsession for muscles, where you a tinny guy before? Have you consider psicological causes? Maybe you have some psicological issues (no trying to judge) that are fuelling your “obsession” with muscles. Thats just a thought.
Anyway Im not into dependending on a external factor for the rest of my life.
Greetings
Belikewater
JQD, why is it that you said that Test Prop is bad for guys without PFS?
I’ve browsed some bodybuilding forums and they say that it def boosts their libido probably due to the frequent injections?
im very curious to find how my body reacts to this type of testosterone or ANY testosterone in general. Id love to feel like im 18 again lol
I never said it was bad for guys, you must have misread? Keeps your levels steady
I have a nice body now, athletic, I was pretty big before, that can fuck with your head, if I didn’t care about that I wouldn’t have much to complain about. Tempting knowing masteron can make me huge again, if body builders ever got this they would kill themselves, prob find a treatment too though lol.
I really should stop talking about my muscles on here though.
I have come up with an extension of my theory of pfs, I now believe pfs is not necessarily brain damage. I believe it is our system’so reaction to 5ar suppression, the same way a man reacts when you suppress his own testosterone. When a man’s testosterone is suppressed his body shuts down test and without pct protocols it takes a while to recover. If you are still putting test in a guy’s system, he will not recover.
I believe like with testosterone shutdown and recovery, we have 5ar suppression, the reason some guys recovered and others have not, has to do with the conditions. A guy with low testosterone won’t be able to recover from pfs as it requires constant stimulation of the 5ar system. In the same way that hcg stimulates our testicles to produce testosterone and induce recovery from testicular atrophy and shutdown, we require 5ar stimulation.
This protocol will do that, however, I am awaiting on my testosterone suspension to arrive. I have spoken to moonman on the phone and he seems to be one of the few guys who can understand everything I say. Suspension has no ester, the reason pfs has been so difficult to treat is because all forms of test have long acting esters attached.
Our compromised 5ar system exhausts trying to reduce the long acting eater to dht. Propionate has a 24 hour ester which is still difficult, but at least it’s manageable. Still requires for me letrozole 2.5mg 2-3x a day. I believe with testosterone suspension, due to it only having a 3 hour half life and it’s quick heavy conversion to dht, that it may be a cure for this and a treatment that requires much less AI with much stronger results. Remember that DHT is an irreversible suicide inhibitor of estrogen, it binds to estrogen and destroys it.
It also has a 5 day half life, I believe that the problems we are having occur on a neurosteroidal level, that’s why this is not detectable on blood tests. All blood tests will show are the consequences of pfs, but not the actions. Since the actions occur in the brain, so rather than looking at this as brain damage, let’s look at it as 5ar suppression. What didn’t make sense before was why would taking a drug that suppressed 5ar actually cause it to remain suppressed? Well, the same thing happens with testosterone! Suppress testosterone and it takes months to return to normal! If you keep taking testosterone it won’t occur. I believe that the neuroestrogen dominance is a cyclical problem that you get stuck in and without enough test stimulating 5ar, the estrogen shuts down the whole system.
HGH does stimulate 5ar, I have been on HGH precursors for a while, inducing my own HGH always helps with pfs by stimulating 5ar and starting the reduction to dht cycle. I have not gotten into my HGH protocols (even though I feel they are immensely beneficial to pfs, reversing damage, restoring every system, and healing damage. I wanted to keep this protocol very simple to that everyone can do it and see what’s going on and that I am correct. Then the forum will change from being all over the place to everyone’s brain set on perfecting this. This forum has brilliant guys, Mew is brilliant, many here are, we can perfect this if we combine our resources.
I have a nuclear option protocol for someone who might by some chance not respond to this protocol, so don’t worry, it involves Masteron, but I don’t believe anyone here will not respond. We need to stop thinking of this as damage, and of suppression. That’s why it takes so long to recover, if it were damage we would recover quicker, it’s the conditions not being conducive to stimulating 5ar. I am the first pfs sufferer to stick it through and fight the estrogen (once I figured it out). So let’s think of this as needing a 5ar pct. That’s why CDnuts recovered, he had good natural testosterone, and he kept stimulating 5ar and recovered. For all we know that would have occurred when he first got pfs if he did that.
His natural test works like test suspension, quick conversion to dht and short half life of 3 hours. Guys with low test will not recover from this without testosterone, just can’t happen. Those who fear having their natural test shut down, I’m here to tell you that by doing nothing you risk your natural test being shut down, testosterone doesn’t do that if you use hcg after to recover.
If there are 5ar inducing drugs and 5ar precursors than they should be used, if you understand my theories, you can try different approaches. Stay strong friends, help is on the way, all here will recover from this condition who wish it, suicide is a permanent solution to a temperary problem, and this problem my friends is temperary.
I wanted to add, my post might have confused some guys, if you have low testosterone you will still recover, my point is you need testosterone injections, but it explains why some recover and some do not. Our 5ar system is not damaged, no longer believe that, something is preventing it from recovering, and that something is neuroestrogen dominance. It is quite possible that in the right conditions, we could recover in months. Legendary is a good example, he had good testosterone, and right after PFS found a GREAT endo who put him on letrozole and he recovered.
I am starting to become an advocate of letrozole, it has helped me immensely, no other form of estrogen control has worked like letrozole, you may have some sides at first, but stick it through and they go away. According to Legendary’s endo (who was quite brilliant), letrozole builds up and becomes more effective overtime. I also started back on DHEA, DHEA seems to make guys with PFS feel better, it does induce estrogen though, but greatly improves mood, libido, muscle tone, on enough Arimidex you can kill it.
I hate to say though, I feel that all guys with PFS will end up migrating to letrozole, so I recommend you buy both just in case, some of you may get buy on Arimidex alone. I also want to say my testosterone SUSPENSION is on its way, I am SO EXCITED, I believe this is going to allow us to take as much test as we want. This form of testosterone is the closest to a 5AR precursor that there is, my theory is that high doses of this will induce recovery as it works just like our own natural testosterone. Most importantly, we won’t need as much AI.
JQD, I have just ordered liquid letrozole and liquid arimidex…am looking around for quality test boosters. Just wanted to ask you what’s your take on using oral steroids or transdermal test to raise our test and then of course a shit load of AI to combat the estrogen? As I can understand the oral and transdermal could be quite estrogenic? Just curious as looking to avoid injecting my ass?
I have no experience with oral, I think the gel called Fortesta is your best bet, I used it before I had PFS and it was the best one, but I have no experience with this stuff with PFS so I can’t speak for it. This is a concept though, so you can try it if you understand what I am saying, start out with arimidex, and see how you do with that, go to letrozole only if you have to. Try to take the least amount of AI that gets you normal, too much is a bad thing too, it is about balance, and find that balance based on how you feel.
Remember guys, you have to find a balance, if you lower Estrogen too much you will have low libido, so you have to go by how you feel, start with Arimidex and keep letrozole handy, take the lowest possible effective doses, increase as you have to based on how you feel.
I took dutasteride for 7 or 8 years and it gave me anxiety, penile insensitivity, lowered libido and ejaculate and severe depression and fatigue/ muscle weakness. Been off for 3 or 4 years now and all things have abated apart from libido.
I tried proviron at 25mg for a week a few years ago. day 1 - nothing, day 2- dangerously high libido, day 3 sexually deviant, day 4 - nothing, day 5 nothing etc. etc. despite at this point taking higher doses up to 100 mg per day.
I always wondered why my libido soured through the roof and then dropped back to baseline. I assumed, either estrogen was knocked too low or test shutdown but I was never sure.
After reading this thread (some of it) I am tempted to try proviron again after a good 6 months of working out as my testosterone gets quite high if I train regularly doing deadlifts and squats etc.
Update of my experience with this protocol:
Prelude: FOR THOSE OF YOU ARGUING WITH JQD, PLEASE STOP. TAKE YOUR GRIEVANCES SOMEWHERE ELSE THIS PROTOCOL IS WORKING FOR ME!! YOU MAKE IT DIFFICULT TO FOLLOW THE THREAD WITH YOUR NONSENSE.
I’m using Clomiphene (Clomid) instead of exogenous test. It is supposed to increase your t levels naturally. By last count, I had good T levels. I have been on Clomid since July 2014. I believe it takes a few weeks to raise T to sufficient levels.
I started on liquidex (liquid Arimidex) one week ago. From the first dose, I felt great. My mental sides virtually diminished. I have been trying to maintain these gains and so far I have but I feel like I need more liquidex to get the same effect. I started with 1 mg per day, and shortly after I take it I feel great for about 20 hours. However, the last time I took it, the effects dissipated after 12 hours and I had to take a second dose. I may need to increase my intake as my body may be building a tolerance to it.
I also want to share a very interesting finding about estrogen and my own experience. This lends credence to JQD’s entire theory. (BTW JQD thank you for your work and sticking it out on this forum. You hay not have solved the entire puzzle YET but I think you’re getting closer each day, and you have certainly uncovered the underlying mechanisms of PFS)
I used to smoke pot in high school and uni. I enjoyed it and could control my high, it made me creative etc… but since the onset of PFS type symptoms, which began before i stopped taking the drug, I could not tolerate weed. It would FUCK ME RIGHT UP. My eyes would get unusually bloodshot. It looked like i had smoked 5 joints when everyone else I was with looked like they smoked one. I would get extremely lethargic, sleepy, and generally dumb.
Well lo and behold, check out this article:
ESTROGEN INCREASES CANNABIS SENSITIVITY
eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ … 082814.php
It has been posted all over the interest, including CNN.
After reading that two nights ago I smoked weed after a while a guess what? I was much more normal, much like how I used to be on it pre-PFS.
Keep up the good work JQD. As a side note, I find the Arimidex messing with my sleep a little. Did you experience this? Do you have any idea why that isor what can be done to prevent this side-effect?
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HEY EVERYONE, LOOK AT THE NUMBER 4 YEARS, YET AGAIN!
Hey there deadballs, read my whole thread, DHT is not the way to go, I was on it in the beginning and then I decided that recovering my own DHT was the best route. Proviron is not strong enough, what happened was every time you took it you were suppressing your own DHT until it was killed, simultaneously Proviron was killing off your estrogen and that was why you were feeling so horny. A boost in DHT and killing estrogen, but eventually as your own DHT drops, you go back into a state like when you first crashed.
I am curious, have you recovered since you stopped Proviron? Also, Proviron at those doses will suppress your own testosterone, the only way to make it work would be by injecting testosterone and using proviron to replace DHT and kill estrogen, but proviron is too weak, you would need Masteron injections. That is not necessary though, you recovered a lot, if you were to go on my protocol of Arimidex (or Letrozole) and testosterone propionate or testosterone suspension, you could recover your system.
The problem is estrogen dominance, read my whole thread here.
newbie_86, this is one of many reports I have heard, these confirm my theories, good news, now you know what is wrong and at least how to fucking counter it, the question now is what weapons are the best. I suggest you switch to letrozole, I gave up on Arimidex for the same reasons you had, it just doesn’t cut it for this, but letrozole does. Letrozole seems to build up in your system and work better over time, I am on 2.5mg 2X a day, but I am injecting testosterone propionate 30mg daily.
All you need is 2.5mg of letrozole 1 time a day and you will be good and can quit the Arimidex, as time goes by your symptoms will improve, if you hit a barrier then you would want to go on my actual protocol and hit the test propionate. If you don’t know where to order Letrozole let me know and I will PM you a good website.
It is not a tolerance, arimidex just isn’t cutting it, your estrogen is rebounding, order the supplement pregnenolone, monoman told me about pregnenolone and I have had good results with it. 100mg 2 to 3X a day in addition to my protocol, I suggest you switch to the letrozole, one dose a day will cut it for you, you are close!
You see people? My theories are correct, we must evolve this forum beyond figuring out what this is, I have done that, and figuring out what to do, I have solved that too, we need to start testing variations of my methods. This guy here was smart enough to supplement propionate with Clomid and he did not get confused by "the protocol," but learned the concepts and operated off of them.This is all really good news, but I’m fearing you guys building up tolerances to each AI until there’s basically no where to go. I hope I’m wrong but that seems to be an issue here for both of you.
I responded to arimidex the same way from day 2, all that happened with newbie and I is that arimidex has an estrogen rebound. It stops the aromatise enzyme and then when arimidex wears off it takes up where it left off. There is no tolerance to AI’s that I know of, but if such exists, it will occur long after our dht starts returning to normal and killing off the estrogen. This isn’t a lifelong thing, since I switched to Letrozole it has become stronger as the days go by and I need less, today I haven’t needed ANY Letro yet, I’m sure I will, but this is the first time I haven’t needed it.
I believe my 5ar is starting to rebound and more dht and thus less estrogen and Letrozole does build up and become more effective as time goes by. That prob with arimidex is no secret, I had been looking for a way to solve it for a while, I just didn’t realize how effective Letrozole was, first few times on it I had side effects of racing heart and dizziness. I read that those go away, they went away and now I feel normal.
I will take as little as I need, if I don’t need any today, I won’t take any today.
Can i try arimidex or letrozol without testesterone?
Edit: any chance to see improvoments without testo?