Guys don't want to report their progress, I have had to post some private messages to prove it, check back a few pages. The few guys I'm working with do not wish to come forward till they are ready, so we have to wait. Also, it's cool you ordered test prop, but that is not my protocol and actually I condemn your protocol with all I can say. Taking Proviron was the worst mistake I ever made, any form of dht (aromasin included) will suppress your own dht production.
You will never recover with synthetic dht, you will suppress your own dht more and more and eventually you will be far worse. Dht replacement works at mega doses with masteron as an AI and dht replacement on testosterone. Taking any form of dht will shut you down and when you realize that you will start from square one like you just quit finasteride.
50mg a day is way too high, the 24 hour ester will build up and you won't be able to deal with the estrogen. I suggest you try testosterone suspension instead since it has no ester and then you can take high doses as it quickly convers to dht and then leaves your system before it can aromatize much. That is the same logic with propionate which is why I chose it and then I found a better testosterone form which is on the way here, same principal as prop but 100x more effective.
Propionate is the only form of testosterone you will be able to get to work and manage with an ester. I suggest you start out with much lower doses like 10mg or maybe 20mg with letrozole 2.5mg twice a day if you want to take doses like that. If you want to go down the dht road that is fine, please don't come back and report you tried my protocol though and failed. I have warned everyone here countless times that dht replacement can work but over time you will get worse as your dht shuts down and when you finally give up you will regret it.
I know you probably won't listen to me, I was where you are now a few months ago. Dht was great but I had not realized how much dht activity I had until it was suppressed. My protocol revolves around restarting your own dht and stimulating 5ar with fast acting testosterone with a short half life. Proviron is another protocol and will just make your situation worse.
If you go on masteron you will be able to take any form of test and have muscle and a super sex drive and super sensitivity but you will suppress your own dht. You will suffer bloating and emotional problems and feel estrogen dominance attacks but have sexual function and muscles, it's weird. I thought proviron was a cure at first while I was on testosterone, it did kill off estrogen (along with my own dht). The first day 1 pill was enough, actually for a few weeks, then that turned I to about 20 pills a day, 1 every hour, that's when I moved to masteron and then realized this was estrogen and moved onto my theory. It was dht that showed me we can recover as it suppressed my recovery to when I first crashed (estrogen dominance attack). So that told me and tells me my system can recover, it has been 3 weeks since I have been off dht and aromasin (a dht like AI) and my system is more responsive to testosterone now then 3 weeks ago.
I urge you to listen to me. Eden is a nice guy but completely lost, first of all I always laughed when he said he OD'd on testosterone, that's not possible A and B the doses he took a week were less than my body builder friends take a day. He was suffering estrogen dominance attacks, he thought that was ODing, how do I know? I have spent plenty of time evolving this protocol, Eden doesn't follow anything, he just does one protocol after another then stops and starts another.
He was too afraid to take aromasin because it is a suicide inhibitor, he did not know that our own DHT is an irreversible suicide inhibitor! My reasons for being against aromasin are because it works just like dht and this suppresses our own.
Going back on finasteride to study it's effects is a very stupid thing to do, the drug is causing damage to our 5ar enzymic system. It's damage, the reason he and all of us are suffering from estrogen dominance is due to the fact that our 5ar system is damaged and cannot reduce testosterone to dht which causes testosterone to be aromatized.
I like Eden, nice guy, but very lost and he is not going anywhere, also he is not aware that this is estrogen dominance from what I have seen. Eden studying things is different from what I do as I already know what everything does and how they will affect us based on years of study. He has gone off into the whole adrenal thing.
My theories have never changed, they only evolved from blocked 5ar to damaged 5 ar to estrogen dominance from damaged 5ar to neurosteroidal estrogen dominance. My protocols have all followed the same theme, induce dht, the only thing that changed in the past few months was lowering estrogen.
Also, using dht and realizing it was not conducive to our recovery was my only other change of thoight. I know exactly why Eden has responded the way he has to everything, I can explain it to you, I left his forum as it was pointless to try and explain to him what is going on. He has gotten to a point where he is just going no where. I sent him a link to this thread so he can read and see where I am.
I already figured this out terrified, I know whatâs going on and exactly how to fix it and already guys are improving based on just one aspect of my concepts which are lowering estrogen in a high frequency. Taking a ton of arimidex at once on a low dose of test is not what I have been saying. Taking arimidex as needed is different, learning what estrogen feels like and countering it is what I have been saying.
I have done what Eden has not, I have reversed pfs and have been so for about 2 months, now Iâm reversing others. Randomly taking different drugs and hormones and calling them experiments sounds cool, but it doesnât mean anything. He is an extreme neurosteroidal estrogen dominant state and he cannot get out unless he lowers his estrogen for a while and then starts testosterone suspension (or propionate).
Iâm not here to debate people anymore, just share what I have figured out, reverse some people and then ill move on in a month or 2, after my test suspension gets here and I perfect my long term protocol.
And how many times did I say no DHT? So Danny is going to do the opposite of what I said and come back and report it didnât work. By the time he does that I will be out of here, I canât tell you how frustrating it is to work this hard to reverse this only to have guys try to tear it apart. I mean I think itâs great guys are using variations of my protocol but doing something I specifically said not to do and saying you are going to come back and report if it works or not is just so irritating.
DANNY, if you want I will talk to you on the phone and explain everything before you go and make your situstion 10x worse than it is with your disastrous protocol and plan, not trying to insult, just help, pm me if you want my help, otherwise start your own thread as thatâs not my protocol not even remotely.
I think a better question is how many times did you say to take DHT? Look at the name of this thread to start off the count.
It really depends on the individual doctors. I have seen some that are dismissive but the good ones pay attention to how I feel subjectively as the lab tests can provide some value but cannot perfectly measure quality of life. Dr. Jacobs is in a little bit of a category unto himself where he seems to overemphasize slight changes in what the patient may report. This is a bit off topic though.
Iâm less concerned with dismissive doctors than I am with other guys blindly following untested protocols by some guy on a forum. While this is anecdotal, I visited a doctor who once told me about some patient that read about some drug on a body builders website and ordered it online, had an absolutely terrible reaction to it and he is now a complete zombie with zero emotional variations. The kid thought he knew what was he doing because he researched on forums but the little information he gathered got him into a lot of trouble.
Taking drugs from online pharmacies has the potential to get you in a world of trouble. Even Propecia was clinically tested among thousands of patients and look at the damage this drug was able to do. The amount of risk you would be taking with these untested drugs is largely immeasurable and JQD is certainly not qualified to be offering medical advice.
Go talk to Jacobs as you are planning on doing. He obviously has the qualifications and even though he can be pretty experimental with his approach, he is in a far better position to help you manage your risks if you feel you want to go through with this.
I started for a month and stopped, I figured out how to make DHT work, you can replace your own DHT, you must be on testosterone to do it, the problem is that it will suppress your own DHT. I found that we do recover when stimulating 5AR and inducing DHT, I did on testosterone and inducing my own HGH to stimulate 5AR.
I had come a long way, but then I had a major estrogen dominance attack (AKA pfs crash), it was then I decided to go for DHT as I felt this condition was not something I would recover from. I was surprised going on DHT how well it worked, even more surprised that I had so much 5AR and DHT activity to suppress, I didnât realize how good I was doing until I set myself back with DHT.
Masteron turned me into a beast, huge muscles, super sex drive, and believe me, it is tempting sometimes to go back and inject it, but all evidence suggests it will shut me down and prevent recovery. We need to signal our system that we have LOW DHT by lowering estrogen and raising testosterone to induce our own DHT. So our system sees that we have high test and low DHT and low estrogen and low 5AR, that way we will adapt. One thing about the human body is we adapt and repair and heal.
The problem with PFS is you get caught in a cycle of estrogen dominance on a neurosteroidal level which is undetectable by tests. With low 5AR activity our body aromatizes most testosterone and the estrogen signals our system that our testosterone is too high and it shuts everything down. If Masteron or Primobolan was something that was prescribed by doctors I would have considered it, but I am thinking long term, and you canât be on illegal steroids long term, one day you may not be able to get them, or get in trouble and who would believe the story?
That being said, my goal has been to reverse this condition so that libido, sexual function, muscles all are back, mood etc⌠In time my car activity will increase and my DHT production will increase and that will kill off more estrogen and I will need less and less AI. We know guys recover from this when they stimulate the 5AR system. Guys who try to recover naturally are hit or miss, I havenât seen any evidence anyone recovers naturally without stimulating 5AR. So my concepts are based on recovering from this condition naturally, BUT allowing us to live a normal life while we recover.
It is much easier when your body is regulating hormones and you donât have to, for me I canât deal with the water retention and my face getting bloated. I even gave Aromasin a chance, I ignored better judgment, it is a steroidal anti estrogen drug, Dr Jacobs of course didnât know if it was suppressive of our DHT. I was in denial at first, it worked great, then (like DHT) I needed more, more, I would like to believe that Masteron would help me recover, that would be great! I was a beast on it.
I just donât see it that way, everything is normal now, I had 2 or 3 spontaneous recoveries before I went on DHT. All of a sudden out of no where my 5AR started working at 90% efficiency on a long acting testosterone ester, then I suffered an estrogen dominance attack (aka PFS crash). Why did I spontaneously recover? I didnât know these were estrogen dominance attacks, so I thought I was not recovering, but I was, and these estrogen dominance attacks could have been reversed or prevented and I would be by now recovered.
Currently I have PFS in reverse, with just an AI and testosterone, no I am not as BIG as I was pre-PFS, but I have a nice body, not as sickly horny as I was pre-pfs, but am horny enough. I know I can change all that with Masteron, but I also know my body has the ability to get there on its own, it occurred in a matter of 3 or 4 months. I will see where I am in 3 or 4 months from now, if I need less AI and if I respond stronger to test and produce more 5AR and DHT etc⌠I just know that my DHT use set me back to when I first had my estrogen dominance attack from Avodart.
Danny is going on Proviron, he is going to take DHT which is suppressive of his own DHT, we are suffering from a condition where we are not producing enough DHT in a cycle, we should not be suppressing it. We should be lowering estrogen and inducing it, it may take a few months or a year or 2 or 3, but we will recover, not sure if that is the case if we take synthetic DHT, I donât think it is.
Good post.
Quick update here: On my 3rd week of Aromasin. The first 10 days boners and libido were up noticeably. Into my third week here. Libido and boners are down from the first week or so, but still up considerably from baseline. I was able to rail a girl 3 times in 24 hours WITHOUT any viagra, which is totally abnormal for me. Mood and confidence was enhanced during the start, however, back to baseline now with that. Will continue with the Aromasin for another few weeks, then try Arimidex.
Frustrated, when is the last time you have seen Dr Jacobs prescribe a protocol from "some guy on the internet?" Would this be the first time? The second time? The third? Does he often prescribe protocols from guys off this forum?I told you so, when you quit it you will start from square one, like when you just crashed from Fin, it will set back your DHT all the way from day one, just like I told you. It sucks, but it is true, if you are going on Arimidex, do it as needed, as you feel estrogen, you also want to boost your testosterone with testosterone boosters if you are not going to use testosterone suspension or testosterone propionate.
So I wanted to update you guys, anyone who finds they have to take a lot of Arimidex to stay level, I have switched to Letrozole instead, it is much stronger, 2.5mg 2X a day, so this is just for guys who require a lot of Arimidex and a lot of dosing. I was finding I needed to take Arimidex almost hourly some days, so I gave Letrozole a shot and it is working. I upped my testosterone propionate to 30mg a day, seems with the letrozole I can tolerate it, libido, morning erections, muscles big, mood good etcâŚ
Letrozole actually sucks estrogen out of your fat cells and brain, it is perfect for this condition, but some guys wonât need something this strong, go by how you feel. Also, as I have mentioned many times before, propionate is the only form of testosterone we can use and manage, BUT testosterone Suspension will be a game changer, it will allow us to take as much testosterone as we want with minimal consequences.
It has no ester, no slow release, it all releases at once, highly converts to DHT and then fades away (like our natural testosterone). All Arimidex (only as needed). Try it and see how you feel in an hour, if you feel better, pay attention to those feelings, do not take it on a regular schedule at a set time and dose every day or you will be in trouble. Take it like Xanax, as you need it, the least dose possible, but most effective dose possible.
Try boosting your own testosterone if you are not using propionate or suspension. Letrozole 2.5mg can be taken 3X a day (if needed and you are on injectable testosterone). As time goes by Letrozole will accumulate in your blood stream and become more effective and get your estrogen levels lower. I really donât know why I ignored this AI, I guess I thought it was too strong, but it is what we need. However, I advise everyone to start on Arimidex before migrating to Letrozole, Arimidex may be all you need. Letrozole is very strong and so only should be used if Arimidex is not cutting it.
Another thing I wanted to mention, if you guys have Smart phones, every time you take a drug, a hormone, log it into your calendar, the time, the dose and the drug (or hormone). Start keeping logs, it will be VERY helpful when you start reversing this and want to go back and find how you responded to certain things on certain days. It will also help you understand why you might be having an estrogen surge or something like that. I have been keeping logs since I got PFS, I can go back to day one and see everything I took.
This has helped me get to where I am.
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I donât really think this would be too uncommon. If a patient goes to see a doctor and asks for try treatment X, unless the doctor is strongly opposed he will probably go ahead with a trial. This is how direct to consumer marketing works and was also the main driver behind Propeciaâs commercial success. You should know this as somebody who was in the anti-aging business.
If Dr. Jacobs was willing to prescribe for you, it is a positive sign in that he probably didnât believe it was too crazy. Is he just prescribing for guys that are asking? Is he independently suggesting new patients try out this alternate form of testosterone? Is he going to suggest this for a first line therapy? Is he getting any success with it or just throwing it out since he thinks it might not hurt?
These are the more important questions.
Thats a insane amount of Letrozole to take.
If I take just 2.5mg of Letrozole it gives me headaches and also depression if I take it for long enough.
I think cutting up a pill and spreading out the doses across the day would work better than taking mega doses of the drug.
It took me 4 times to go back on Letro, first 3 I had lots of sides and gave up, but I am on 30mg of propionate a day (probably too high). I am looking forward to getting testosterone suspension, it quickly converts to DHT with no ester, the ester is what fucks us. The 24 hour ester with propionate is EASIER, but still a challenge, but at least manageable.
Suspension will not stay behind to aromatize and will require less AI, but in the meantime we are all different, I need that much letro, maybe you donât. Maybe Arimidex works better for you, I had less sides with Arimidex, it just got to a point where I was needing it almost every hour on some days. Since I switched to Letro it has made things much easier.
I felt this time I would give it a go and ride it through till I got used to the sides, in studies Letro was safely used at up to 60mg in a day, so the doses are hardly dangerous. Letro does have a lot of sides, so it depends, but seems like this time around I am not having any sides. I think you just have to get used to it, it is a powerful drug. If you can get by on Arimidex, that is good enough, the idea is to lower estrogen long enough for you to stimulate DHT (with a 5 day half life) that will then annihilate the estrogen.
Hold the Estrogen back so the DHT can build up (via induction with fast acting short half live test) and then let it kill it off when it rebounds. Mark, you complain that I keep changing my protocol, instead of understanding what I am talking about (which plenty guys here have called and spoken to me and understand) and helping me. I figured out what this is, what is going on, what we need to do to fix it, I just need to find the perfect drugs to do it.
Every time I find a better way you attack me, makes me not want to even post my new discoveries, instead of working with me and helping me, you complain. You seem like a smart enough guy to understand what I am saying. This entire forum needs to change from arguing what this is, to working together to find the best protocol to manage this condition, no one else is going to do that for us.
We have to work together, I am not an anomaly, other guys are responding the same as me, I havenât heard back from any guys on propionate yet. I suspect most will go on and never come back, when I first started recovering a while back in the beginning I left and never came back till I had an estrogen dominance attack (formerly known as PFS crash). Dr Jacobs is intrigued with my research, Moonman and I spoke and he is in agreement with me and ordering the stuff, several others who which to be unnamed.
I just wish the theme of this forum would migrate from attacks and nasty comments, I think that is estrogen. I really think a lot of guys here are behaving like a bunch of women due to estrogen, it certainly makes me bitchy. I never could understand women with their periods, now I can, I remind myself of my ex girlfriend who is a total bitch. I am a bitch now, I get estrogen levels rising and I just feel like a woman on her period.
BTW, if any women donât understand whatâs going on, tell them your estrogen levels are so high that you feel like they do on their worst period, they will be very sympathetic. I just donât understand why people like Frustrated find that they have to attack me and others, if you disagree with someone, why not just not post? I have never been on a forum before, but I have read other forums and this behavior doesnât occur there. Here though, in a place where we should be helping each other, people attack, and whatâs worse, I am trying to help people and get attacked for it.
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LoL ya no kidding! Ok cool l just wanted to confirm that with vincent as far as his status/history on AI/estrogen reduction attempts.
Ok nice thanks. Keep us updated
So what are your long term plans? Are you planning to stops all protocols someday?
GREETINGS
Belikewater
JQD, I was gonna ask you as someone else did that why do we still have persistent side effects after fin as left our bodies.
then you said the main problem is our 5AR system is fucked up. ok I understand that.
Could you explain how exactly the 5AR system is damaged? I would love to know this truthfully.
plus, just a comment, the idea of taking test prop or suspension and getting flooded with all those beautiful enzymes that we so need IS GETTING ME PUMPED BRAH!!!
Thanks JQD! YOU DA MAN BROTHA
Hi there, Iâm not sure how our 5ar is damaged, that is irrelevant to my goals, I am only interested in finding a solution to the problem. In looking for a solution I concluded our 5ar system is damaged, I do believe based on all available data it can heal. I believe that healing directly correlates to how much the system is stimulated. Guys who have good natural testosterone can recover without hormones, guys who donât, will never recover naturally. I believe thatâs why some guys have had this for 10 years, they are guys with bad natural test and couldnât figure out how to do hrt on pfs and gave up ending in a worse situation than they started, not knowing how to reverse it.
If Awor contacted me, I could reverse his situstion, but I have not heard from him ever. Perhaps he is reading my posts and acting on it, but this is reversible I believe. I donât know why no one figured this out but me, I find this all so logical and it just all makes sense to me. Not to mention I managed to reverse it based on these theories, and others are improving based on my theories.
Itâs a horrible condition which is why I wonât move on from this forum till I make sure I get all this info out.
I had already been on hrt before I got pfs and it was amazing, quitting testosterone was my worst fear (seriously), my long term goal is to recover enough to take a long acting testosterone ester again and not have to take all this AI. Considering how I have brought myself back from hormonal death, I am happy just being functional and not feeling like I want to die every minute.
I am happy my dick works and my libido works and my muscles are back, I believe it must be my destiny to help others here, thatâs why I got this maybe. I am the chosen one, I really wish I could change my name to NEO lol! I always had a flair for the dramatic, but come on, it really would fit this all so much better 
If I didnât care about long term I would go on masteron which made me a beast, but Iâm thinking long term, I need my system to recover, may not be able to get masteron in 5 years, canât depend on illegal steroids to get by. My protocol is actually based on natural healing, most guys here just donât get it, using dht is not natural healing. If your natural test is fucked itâs never coming back, so fixing that will help you naturally heal.
I suspect a great many guys have gone on propionate and we shall never hear from them again, thatâs just what testosterone does, hopefully some will report back. I do still have patient X1 and x2 waiting for their propionate, but prop should arrive for x2 by next week.