I think natural you should get by using the liquid at like 0.5mg at a time or lower, find the lowest most effective dose, it’s all relative to how much estrogen you produce. You have to regulate your own estrogen as you don’t have enough dht to do it. As perfect gent pointed out yes it’s a small price to pay for feeling better. I’ll take dry joints over the other shit any day lol, but like I said, your dose at a time is prob too high. Arimidex only seems to work for us for a short time. When my estrogen spikes I need it hourly some days, that’s why keeping your test down to the level that works and not too high will make this easier. Hey, it’s better than suicide, it’s a start, I figured out what this is and how to manage it, if you all get on board and spread the word maybe someone will find something better. In the meantime I’m working on some exciting new approaches in the near future.
Justquitdut- great work man! I can’t wait to try this protocol. Incidently people, arimidex is often used for men to treat hypogonadism
That's a good point Finatruth, unfortunately in our situation though, we will need a boost from outside, some guys or many guys might be ok with using their own test. What's important are my theories, not so much the protocol. i will have an even better protocol based on these principals in the near future, for now this is what we know works, and that will never change.
If only I had researchers and drug manufacturers I could do this much quicker, a 24 hour extended release arimidex would be a treatment for us that would allow us to take any form of test. As I discover new drugs I will try them, I know what works based on the mechanisms. For now everyone should start regulating their body so our systems start to recover.Finbasteride and Bizbee you got so quiet, what happened? It’s ok my children, I forgive you even though you hath forsaken me. Lol
very exciting stuff!
Im the guy that went all crazy for iodine a few years back, haven’t posted since.
Basically a protocol of vitamin d3, zinc, iodine, light therapy in the winter, eating well, and abstinence from masturbation, kept me almost normal. The problem comes when you ejaculate a few times, it takes a few weeks to recover, makes normal sex life in a relationship difficult.
Ive spent years researching TrT options thinking maybe it was the final piece if done right, I first thought masteron was our salvation cause it doesn’t aromatize, but guys here have tried it and proviron with limited success.
I noticed there seems too be a GIANT blind spot in TRT circles when it comes to propionate. Interestingly you will find hundreds of anecdotal stories on all the bodybuilding boards talking about how propionate is amazing and how you don’t bloat, and feel great on it. You can even find stories from many guys on mesorx that have tried hundreds of different HRT protocols and nothing works for them when they finally switch to proportionate BAM it works. I think its taking so long to be discovered because you have these old fats who only have access to long esters through there prescriptions and insurance yelling TEST IS TEST to everyone that will listen.
I myself am seriously thinking about starting a protocol of testosterone acetate because the half life is even shorter then proportionate. Frankly im kinda tempted to go whole hog and do pure testosterone suspension. The theory being that it most closely mimics the pathology of natural testosterone in the body.
JustQuitdut you have done an awesome job bringing this to the attention of the bored, i was convinced that short esters were by fay the best course for TRT but you have convinced me that perhaps we might have a working PFS protocol here!
below is an Interesting link on the subject of testosterone esters, seems experiments with animals show what we believe to be true , shorter esters are less estrogenic and more androgenic.
its great two guys have seen some improvements for a day or two. Fantastic, now lets see if they can keep it up for a month without having to increasing doses up to the hourly mark. you do realize that that is an insane quantity of pharma to be consuming hence you now state you are looking for alternatives (again).
I ve no aversion to men trying things but your insistence and arrogance regarding opinions, theories, and past user experience is incendiary with many, not just me. You also fail to mention men who have trialed arimidex and T such as frustrated (who has spoken to you at length about this) who only saw short term benefits but nothing lasting. Its the last part that is crucial. I have good days even by just implementing my workout/diet protocol. So some partiality into your discussion is badly needed instead of this “i have a universal cure” mentality.
I suspect this may well progress like the progesterone therapy, one or two claiming a cure, a few minor improvements, many no sustained improvements and a few wrecked by it. The last point must be included in any advisory regarding the introduction of pharma compounds into our already shitty state. I ve already highlighted this last part several times now.
Another well known poster also saw brief improvement on liquid arimidex. He posted this in a modest accurate style:
viewtopic.php?t=5414
He even spoke to you about his experience, which was years ago, in this thread. Because he disagreed with you, you chewed him out. Again when someone has a conflicting experience to your all encompassing theory you should respect it.
If guys can sustain these early improvements without having to consume insane amounts of ai then fantastic. I remain unsold on the remedy presently and would not consider taking hourly drug doses. Are you going to do this for life?
If there is a change in the trend to how men have responded to hrt over the years, i will consider. As of yet there is not.
Don’t forget the arimidex as needed 1mg when estrogen symptoms come on (aka pfs crashes), that is essential or it won’t work. You are on the right track, I already ordered testosterone suspension, it’s going to be in my next protocol after I try it and experiment with it. It is the esters that are creating the problems, suspension would be the ideal form of test for us and you are right, the doctors don’t know shit.
I chose propionate because I found a pharmacy that prescribes it and gave it to dr Jacobs, it works, it’s a start. I was not planning to announce what I am working on till I had it and used it, but since you brought it up. The problem we have is not when test comes into our system, that’s why guys often get that first burst then never again. It’s the water that lingers on with our damaged 5ar system and its inability to reduce it to dht. So propionate has the shortest ester, I’m not familiar with acetate, but if it’s longer than suspension I’m not interested.
If you already understand my theories and the mechanisms (which you do if you already flgured out what I was working on) go for the suspension and let us know. I Prob won’t have my hands on it for a month as I’m ordering from overseas and getting them the money is a pain and then waiting for it to come etc…
If more people would help me here we could discover better treatments, please post as I have, this is what I was hoping would happen! If we work together, we can find something even better, sitting around waiting for something that is never coming is pointless, life is too short.
I found a way to reverse this, now to just perfect it, but please make sure to take arimidex as needed. Interestingly enough, testosterone suspension has the highest rate of conversion to dht and only like a 3 hour half life, so we would prob need much less arimidex with it. Would require more injections, but who cares, Everyone else should use the protocol that I’m using now, I know it works, so if you aren’t versed in this stuff stick with what we know works, any Mavericks like me, let us know how it goes if you beat me to it.
It is irrelevent to me how someone responded to arimidex on testosterone, arimidex will not work on any other form of testosterone as the esters are too long. Propionate as the shortest ester, thus the condition is manageable, you are not understanding my theories here which others are understanding and putting into practice.
A guy with pfs will not be able to respond to testosterone consistently unless it’s a short ester, propionate is the best so far. There are shorter ones I’m working on getting, I don’t have to take arimidex hourly Finbasteride. On 10mg of propionate every other day I need much less, that was from when I was taking higher doses.
Also the theory is that by normalizing our system with these protocols our system can recover quicker and we can have quality of life. This is nothing like progesterone, guys taking something that makes them feel better than everyone just taking it without understanding why or what’s going on is stupidity. The reason guys had improvement with progesterone initially is because it is an anti estrogen, it was lowering their estrogen, they did not know that’s why they felt better. After time too much progesterone and they suffered progesterone side effects.
Such a method can only work while on testosterone, progesterone could be used as an AI in the right dose, one member here recovered that way (or reversed pfs rather). Yes my protocols will continue to evolve, what’s your point? You may have confined thinking and not be able to grasp that this has nothing to do with the protocol but the concept we operate on. That’s why people are replacing propionate with other things and having success, they get the math behind this. You can’t be that dull Finbasteride to not understand what I’m saying while many here do.
I got this far by trying new things, that doesn’t negate the old protocols, you can go on my very first protocol which required a shit load of injections and drugs, had I never changed it I wouldn’t be where I am now. Your thinking is just confined and small, and you are a very negative person, your advice to people is to get blood tests and see a doctor, seriously dude??!
Who cares about someone taking arimidex with testosterone in the past, what exactly does that have to do with my theories and protocol? Nothing, because you don’t understand, so rather than keeping your obnoxious mouth shut because you are not able to understand what’s going on, you just want to trash it for everyone. No one is interested in your posts, they are puerile and insulting, often giving ridiculous advice like getting blood tests and seeing a doctor. If that worked we wouldn’t be here, I think you killed too many brain cells from your drug use.
No one cares what you have to say, so shut the fuck up! Just because you happen to be sober today doesn’t mean I’ll forget all the nasty shit you said and did in the past while drugged up. You are an annoyance to this forum getting high and posting while fucked up on xanax. You don’t have anything to contribute ever other than insults and negativity, that’s it. Your so worried about using arimidex when you pound xanax and alcohol like water and candy, that’s hilarious dude.
You can post all you want, till your behavior changes I’m not reading your posts or responding anymore, this is it. You really would prefer if no one tried this wouldn’t you? You are a real muppet.
No one is forcing anyone to take this either, you can go on and suffer instead of taking too much arimidex (oh no!) instead you can pound 1 xanax after another, that’s much safer. Do you think if the guys who committed suicide had something that could reverse this they would have killed themselves?? Everyone is free to do what they want, nobody here needs or wants your advice. People may recover on this and require less arimidex in time, but even off of testosterone propionate arimidex improved pfs quite a bit, you saw that one email I posted.
Arimidex has been studied at doses of 10mg a day and up to 60mg was safely tolerated, and eventually I’ll find a more efficient AI and form of test that needs less AI like test suspension. For now I’m keeping guys from committing suicide and giving them the opportunity to live life, your ridiculous posts are riddled with fear of everhthing. So people should remain fucked up because you are afraid of taking arimidex but not afraid of pounding 1 xanax after another along with booze? Give us a break, you need to go to drug recovery before you start handing out advice.
My posts are far from insulting and obnoxious of late. The same cannot be said of you. Also you completely contradict yourself when you say “who gives a shit how men on testosterone and arimidex are responding.” The two men who’s pms you have posted attribute improvements only to arimidex introduction. Without t prop, therefore their accounts should be discounted?
That’s testosterone propionate, the form of test that is the only form found to work, we all know other forms of test do not work, if they did, I wouldn’t have posted this. So how is bringing up old forms of test we know don’t work productive? I am being rude to you because you cannot expect to come on one day without apologizing for your past behavior and you continue to insult and attack me and call me a liar. You try to find contradictions in a therapy you don’t understand that is helping people, that’s why I’m not responding to you anymore. Yes your behavior has improved, but instead of accepting you don’t understand this, you insist on trying to find holes in my arguments when those holes are actually your not understanding things. Why can’t you contribute postitive and encouraging messages? People don’t need your warnings or false contradictions, I’m not arguing with you anymore it’s a waste of time. If you try to argue with me anymore I just won’t respond, you are insulting and argue just to argue, you don’t want this to work, period. You said I was lying that I helped people, I posted proof and now you have to find another way to show me as a liar or discredit me, I’m done with it.
haha. I posted once that I had taken a xanax and now you constantly claim i pound them every hour? You need to get some new material dude.
You are the one who has to take HOURLY doses of arimidex. At 1 mg/day there is asymptomatic liver toxicity. at hourly doses i d be worried.
I never said you were not helping people. I m fully aware you are PMing men as i was one of them.
I understand what you claim is the route cause of PFS is.
5Ar damage which leads to being swamped with excess E as 5AR is unable to metabolize all T it to dht.
short acting T is better as it can be controlled better with AI and you don’t get excess aromatization.
Still can’t see why hourly dosing of AI would be required. Arimidex half life is 46 hours so you will have massive accumulation of AI in your system at those doses.
perhaps it has some other mechanism at high dose.
Now that you are being logical and civil I’ll respond, dosing hourly is only if you have a pfs estrogen crash coming on. If you feel it coming on then the only way I have found it to stop the estrogen dominance (aka crash) is with arimidex then wait and after an hour if it’s still going on take it again, not every hour of the day, eventually you will get it under control.
I am aware of the half life, but for some reason it only works in our condition for a short time when estrogen is spiking. The whole half life thing just doesn’t work which is why it hasn’t worked. I also think it explains why it hasn’t worked in other conditions as well.
When the 5ar system is damaged and test is in our system, without it being reduced to dht, there is a constant release of estrogen by the minute. Arimidex works for an hour, but then the estrogen comes right back. That’s the problem we have faced, constant release of estrogen. Dht kills estrogen, arimidex just stops the enzyme from working so that test isn’t being aromatized to estrogen.
When the arimidex wears off the aromatise enzyme takes up where it left off and there can be a rebound of estrogen. The hope is to get enough dht released to help kill off the estrogen. You want to take the least dose of propionate they works and the least dose of arimidex that works. Arimidex taken once a day won’t work, taking a large dose at once won’t work, unfortunately this is the only way I have found when these estrogen dominance attacks come on.
Hopefully over time we will need less as our system recovers more, it will be different for everyone.
I really like the sound of your protocol and have used Anastrozole with Clomiphene through Doctor Shippen a few years ago and it definitely worked but it wasn’t with great improvements but definitely some. Admittingly I only used it about a month for a couple of times. Long story short I decided to switch docs and go a different route with Thyroid meds. No luck. My Question to you is what do you think about cortisol being the underling factor in this. Something like our body releases cortisol anytime our bodies see an increase in DHT which causes our setbacks when our test goes up?
I will say when I saw Shippen that was a major concern of his was watching the estrogen increase when the test levels went up and keeping the estrogen in check.
Lastly, one of Shippen’s last talks with me was to try to inject very high doses of Test Cyp to activate the receptors. I never did I was concerned about doing more damage.
-Have you considered testosterone troches. If you could cut them into halves or quarters and take them about 10 times a day it might be better than prop.
-Have you considered pregnenolone? I have used about every AI possible and I find that pregnenlolone (100mg 2-3x per day) has by far been the most effective form of estrogen control. As you mentioned I was chasing e2 hourly on all the different AIs. Even to this day if I pop 1mg Arimidex I get back rebound e2 symptoms.
Why don’t you chill and take a break for a while. Let him work with some other brave souls and see if he can work his magic on them. Your objections at this point sound like objections for the sake of objection. There are nuances and subtleties to his line of reasoning that you are blatantly ignoring or just completely fail to see. Maybe you’re not as smart as you think you are.
I will remain quiet and observe from now on. For the best as you say.
Thanks bizzbee, Finbasteride, just observe dude, I found a good prototype protocol and we know the theories are correct in practice, already people are contributing new ideas to this protocol. If we work together we can find the perfect protocol. Just sit back and read and learn, you really have drained me a lot with the negativity and arguing, please don’t make me leave from exhaustion. Whether you believe it or not, we have a treatment, with some refinement it will be perfect.
Brilliant moonman! This is what I’m talking about, if we combine our resources and brains we can perfect this protocol. I am not familiar with pregnenolone as an AI, I had been considering trying letrozole again and hope over time it would build in my system and be more effective. If you have found a better AI that is great, I had considered trying progesterone.
Your idea about a pill form of test is great, but I have a better form of test mentioned already, testosterone suspension, it has no ester, it converts to dht more than any other form of test. It doesn’t leave anything behind to aromatize, it would allow us to take higher doses of test and need less AI control.
See, we have a working prototype here, we can perfect it.