JQD, I was prescribed clomid by my endo (I know many people have tried this with no response), but I was wondering if you think it would be a good idea to start with the clomid along with some natural test boosters and use aromasin to keep my estrogen low (even though my last blood test showed I have low estradiol)? I would prefer to stay away from injecting myself with test prop every day if possible. Of course, if it comes to that then I will probably start, but I would rather not.
bizbee, it has been 3 months I have had this in reversal, yes I have used different methods of controlling estrogen, but the principals are the same. I donât care if I get credit, at this point I canât move on until I teach this to others here. I have some nasty people here attacking me, but there are more supporting me in the background. Lots of messages of support and people telling me I give them hope and thanking me. In 3 months 5 people could kill themselves, I offer people experimental treatments that are working for me and others instead of the barrel of a gun.
The more we start learning this principal and what is going on, the better treatments will come, now that you know what is going on you can approach it with different methods, natural or not. It is a great step forward if everyone here understands that they can reverse this condition with hormones and drugs and eventually recover.
Until at least 1 or 2 people here understand this and live by it I cannot move on, people depend on me, I was once hopeless too. I didnât learn all this over night, when I started I was lost even with the hormone knowledge I had, I can imagine how confused many here are. If I explain it enough, people will catch on and understand and the parasite and gut theories will vanish as they are counter productive to solving this.
There was no solution and no treatment not long ago, now I have something that works, we must all treat this for the betterment of us all. This forum has smart guys, if we all combine our resources and work on this we will all find better approaches.
If you can cure yourself in a shorter period of time with your particular method you can be sure that I wonât continue to dawdle around for another two, three or more years with this strict diet and intense exercise regimen. Itâs been over two years and it is wearing on me, even though the progress has been fantastic relative to where I started. I want the fastest way to recovery just like anyone else here. Thatâs why I will wait to see how you and your followers do in the coming months. Iâm hoping you continue to improve.
Just a few days ago you were PMing me and no doubt others about the necessity for aromasin. Now it appears redundant. Itâs been said before and should be said again, go away, work on your protocol and return when you are better and STABLE FOR A FEW MONTHS! Then. Return with some CONSISTENT information.
Right now there are so many changes it is highly inappropriate for you to be advising members how to treat when the âtreatmentâ changes daily. Also you are not medically qualified to give medical advice.
Declaring you have a universal, albeit highly fluid treatment protocol, is ridiculous since you have only one data point. You. if there a more as you claim they should come forward.
Itâs good to have Mavericks experimenting but most of the data points regarding hrt do not align with your personal findings. Glad it is working out for you nonetheless but do give the forum a beak and come back when you are stable and not changing the protocol.
Good luck
Actually I have read many medical books on endocrinology, andrology and neuroendocrinology. I have probably done more blood tests than anyone here and more trials than any one here.
I do not even think it is worth my time correcting the myths espoused in this thread. But I just feel it is very misleading to the others and so thought I should.
Fin causes a massive decrease in the activity of 5ar all around the body. Disabling 5ar does not cause PFS symptoms directly. Most of us took fin for weeks, months or years with out major symptoms. Many of us lowered our DHT so much that we grew new hair but despite this we did not have PFS. So disabling 5ar does not cause PFS. If it did every man who took 1 pill of fin would feel the symptoms of PFS. THey simply do not. PFS occurs as an indirect result of blocking 5ar. Some men take fin for weeks / months years quit and are fine then they take it again and within some time suddenly develop PFS. So it is very very clear that the acting of disabling much of 5ar does not cause PFS one just needs to observe reality to make this conclusion.
It is very well known that anti androgens increase DHT by decreasing aromotase so there should be no need for injecting T on your protoctol or hcg and whatever else. I have done MANY blood tests on various AIS to see how my hormone responds. My T increases a lot and e2 falls but PFS does not go away.
On top of this you talk about excess estrogen I am sorry to tell you this the vast majority do not have excess estrogen as demonstrated by blood tests. So telling everyone they are producing extra estrogen is not true.
Now you say that your system is recovering? You really think forcing your hormones around by taking varrious hormones and drugs is going to make you recover in the long term??? By what mechanism??
Taking DHT does affect the hair directly. Of course many DHT derivitives can cause lots of hair loss in both women and men.
I am not saying FORCING your hormones around by taking various inhibitors and hormones will not cause some partial temporarily relief with side effects. But to say forcing your hormones round is going to CURE you?
Lowing your estrogen is not healthy at all. Sending it too low can cause serious depression and seriously inhibit your immune system not to mention the joint issues.
What you are saying has no basis in the real world.
The detractors say it canât be possibleâŚyet JQD is going on a recovery of 2+ months.
Thatâs the point guys. JQD is experiencing a RECOVERY.
Recoveries are few and far between here and nobody really knows what the hell they did or didnât do!!
JQD has laid out a crystal clear protocol that is WORKING FOR HIM. That gives us some good insight into what this condition is and isnât.
Yes, it may not work for everyone. HOWEVER, it still provides a very good blueprint for others to go on and use as a first resort.
Lets keep it civil and supportive.
Ditto. Iâm going on year 9 here with no improvement. Year NINE.
Hit the gym hard for the past 2.5 years, on and off, in good shape, and very strong. Still = no drive, libido, boners, etc.
That to say, in many guys, this shit does not just go away. I am trialing Aromasin now. Will continue for a couple months. Then add Testosterone Propionate, and may switch to Arimidex if the Aromasin doesnât hit the mark.
Never give up.
Itâs ok, you just donât understand what I am saying and that is fine, it is complicated, your logic is completely off, and your understanding of PFS is the same as most doctors which is why it has never been properly treated. First of all your comparison of lowering 5AR in a normal man by taking Finasteride to the complete disruption of the 5AR system to a PFS suffer is a false dichotomy, you have many times said that my thread is filled with mistruths, please educate me. I only graduated from one of the top universities in the world, majored in pharmacology, was an executive of a medical company and have extensively studied hormones for years before I had PFS.
PFS is damage to the 5AR regulation or production system, a VERY different situation than simply blocking 5AR and lowering DHT, in PFS guys that blocking becomes damage. Anti androgens increase DHT? So then what is the point of hormone replacement therapy? You have a cure, all someone has to do is take Arimidex! In a PFS guy taking an anti estrogen drug alone is not effective enough, it is a form of estrogen dominance which does not show up on tests. Your taking tons of blood tests is a waste of your time and everyoneâs time, if this condition could be measured by tests, doctors would have corrected it long ago.
The problem is most likely neurosteroidal, so by correcting the hormones it is also correcting the neurosteroids (which are not detectible in your blood tests). This IS estrogen dominance, and you are completely wrong, I have reversed it now for 3 months using anti estrogen drugs and I assure you I have only felt better not worse, and when I did get a blood test it actually showed my estrogen as normal even though it showed normal before I took the anti estrogens, so explain that. My Estrogen should show dangerously low if your theory is correct.
Natural testosterone production is irregular and with this condition not stable, especially since most of it is being converted to estrogen and the homeostasis of your body has been changed to have different ratios. More than likely on a neurosteroidal level, I am working with 3 other sufferers of PFS and they are all responding to this therapy the same way. Your knowledge of hormones is extremely basic, writing to you requires educating you which is exhausting, so please educate me rather than make these ridiculous claims that my logic and arguments and theories (which have been proven as fact) are wrong.
I have reversed PFS in myself and 1 other, and in another (very well known member here) am already improving his situation and once the propionate comes in and that works he will out himself.
Testosterone propionate is required, your systems are too compromised, the estrogen must be lowered and 5AR stimulated to stimulate your own DHT. Everything I am saying Dr Jacobs agrees with, he is a neuroendocrinologist who has studied this condition and treated it for a long time, we have had long discussions about this to which he told me I was teaching him things. Then again, your endocrinology books probably give you a better understanding of PFS, I mean you are doing so well with your blood tests and your medical books, you should reach out to Dr Jacobs and ask to help him with your NEW (old) information which a first year nursing school student would know.
I have ventured into Neuro Endocrinology and am making strides that will help you and others here, and your lack of information and understanding gives you the right to attack me. What are you doing to help people? I donât just trust myself, I have discussed this all with Dr Jacobs to hear his input, he completely agrees with me, so perhaps like every doctor I have ever spoken to (except Dr Jacobs) this is just above your head.
Estrogen must be lowered because your system (if you have PFS) is not producing enough 5AR enzymes and so you are converting testosterone to estrogen which then is signaling your system that you have high testosterone and is shutting down your DHT production. This is not a theory, this is a FACT which Dr Jacobs agrees with, your argument that a simple anti estrogen would be sufficient is absurd and you are embarrassing yourself.
Anti estrogens have never been potent enough to help men with low testosterone, there are cases when they have been used by very old doctors (probably doctors in their 70s), but it is very old and unreliable. Your body only produces so much testosterone and when most of it is being converted to estrogen you start having these PFS symptoms. Muscle twitches, trouble taking deep breaths, panic, anxiety, depression, all of this is estrogen dominance, that is what these crashes are, I have proven it in another PFS sufferer and another and I have lived by this for 3 months.
Testosterone propionate is very androgenic and induces a lot of DHT right away and fades before it stays behind causing a lot of aromatization to a compromised system that cannot handle the estrogen as there is simply not enough cycling DHT to kill it. Your precious blood tests will show nothing, if you turn off a water fountain the water fountain stops cycling the water, but if you test the amount of water it is the same.
Your body keeps and maintains a certain amount of DHT in your blood, it converts extra DHT to a pro hormone for later use, but there is no way to detect the actual cycling of hormones which has been interrupted by this condition. The interruption of this cycle has created a cyclical problem. Stimulating 5AR and DHT with test propionate and lowering estrogen is kind of putting your system in the reverse that Finasteride put it in, thus your body detects low neurosteroidal amounts of DHT and compensates by producing more and readjusts your new homeostasis to the old correct way.
I have lived by this, my estrogen is not too low, in fact it is perfect, tests have not been able to show anything, when the therapy is used my tests show normal, when it is not, my tests show normal, I suspect it is nuero steroidal. Donât let me sway you though, you have your medical books and your knowledge of anti estrogens being potent enough to induce enough 5AR to fix this problem.
Finbasteride, I feel for you and want to help you, I understand this stuff is confusing and you admitted it to me that your knowledge of this stuff isnât that high. That is ok, no one is expected to be an expert in hormones, you never claimed to be. Dr Jacobs told me to use Aromasin, I asked him many times if it was suppressive, I had a fear it was due to its molecular makeup being very similar to DHT. It is not Dr Jacobsâ fault, he is on the right track, but he didnât have the right drugs, he did not know what testosterone propionate is, it is not used commonly. It is something body builders use, it is not practical, but once I explained it to him he was very much interested and agreed with me.
I could not find anything to substantiate my fears that Aromasin was suppressive of our condition, so I tried it, at first it worked great (like DHT), but then my estrogen started spiking, I know as I have had this condition under control for 3 months. I can feel when estrogen spikes and see it, I can feel the different hormones as I have kept myself stable for so long.
Aromasin in theory is great, but in our condition our system is recognizing this derivative of DHT as though it were DHT and we are producing less and less. In a normal man it would cause an increase in testosterone and thus an increase in DHT, in our condition the rules are different (probably on a neurosteroidal level). So I quit Aromasin and my DHT spiked back up and I have not needed any arimidex today, I am currently functioning as a normal male without any anti estrogens today.
My theory is that this treatment will change back our homeostasis, nothing has changed but the anti estrogen, I am sad Aromasin is suppressive of our condition, but in science as you learn new things things change. Yes I could leave the forum and forget everyone here and vanish and be fine and no one will ever know, but people are killing themselves. I offer an alternative that is safe, that is consistent with what Dr Jacobs is doing (that he agrees with) and I am not advocating eating dog shit or eating mercury!
All I am advocating is to lower your estrogen and stimulate your DHT so that your system can detect high testosterone, low estrogen and low DHT and compensate, over time your system should start to correct itself. After you have recovered enough you then can restart your natural testosterone with HCG, but if you do not recover, you have a treatment that reverses this hell. It is not complicated, Testosterone propionate 10mg every other day and Arimidex 0.5mg 2 to 4 X a day. You will know by how you feel, that is how I was able to reverse this, the changes are too many and too often for blood tests to detect.
Aromasin is suppressive of our condition, do not use it, I have already told Dr Jacobs about this, how would he know? He doesnât have PFS, and there is no literature on this. Aromasin is a great drug for a normal man or woman, in our case any form of DHT or anything our body thinks is DHT will suppress our condition from recovering. I actually was thinking of you today as I have not seen you on here and was hoping you were ok. I know this is confusing, but I assure you I know exactly what I am talking about, and I even check with Dr Jacobs.
No I am not a doctor, doctors are limited by laws and rules, they could never come here and tell people to start treatments like this without being under their care. This treatment is harmless, there are no risks to it, the amount of testosterone is a JOKE, I am talking 10mg every other day (or every day, depending on how much you can handle by how you feel). Doctors are using 150mg at one time of cypionate which is extremely estrogenic (it releases a lot of estrogen).
This wonât hurt you, it will make you better, guys are killing themselves here, I have had emails from plenty saying they plan to due themselves in soon. So I offer a different option, I offer an option, where there is no option, I offer hope, where there is no hope, I offer proof, I am the proof. I am replicating this on anyone who will let me work with them, unfortunately I was overwhelmed by people. So I picked 1 person at a time and decided to post here so others can follow, I have a life and a business I have let suffer to help people here.
If you donât like my thread there are other threads here, you can read the ones about exercise and diet and parasites and gut problems. You donât have to read this if it bothers you, if everyone wanted me to leave I would, believe me, this is stressful, arguing with people here like yourself. However, for every 1 person who attacks me, there must be 10 or 20 who encourage me and tell me I give them hope.
My theory on PFS has never changed, it has evolved over time, my protocols have evolved, I was using HGH to manage estrogen before I knew it was actually estrogen. HGH regulates 5AR activity and it was working as an anti estrogen by causing me to release DHT, but now I know it is estrogen so I am targeting the problem directly. Unfortunately Aromasin is no good for us, it is a steroid, a hormone, it is very similar to DHT, you do not have to be a rocket scientist to see where that might be a problem. I gave it a shot because why not?
I can only tell you that on propionate testosterone and arimidex I am getting better and better, I had to argue with someone here that his problems were all estrogen. He thought his depression was PTSD, I told him take Arimidex and wait, an hour later his depression was GONE. He then was not worried about killing himself but his dick coming back, that has happened every time. Now he is just waiting for his propionate to come in.
If I was confused and couldnât explain why things were happening I would say so, when this first started I thought I was non responsive to hormones. Now I know what was going on and what is going on, now I have the ability to control this condition. It is my desire that all of you try this and learn this, since my story is the same as everyone elseâs here and my responses have been the same (till I started changing things around to where I am now). I know it is the same problem and everyone will react the same, already someone I know with PFS has fully reversed with my protocol, he will not post here, one person will when they get on the protocol fully.
Also, if I stop this protocol my PFS returns, but as time goes by my system seems to be recovering more, I already have replicated this in someone else. I am doing what any other one of you here would do if they found a cure, I am screaming from the mountain tops. There are too many here nice and supportive guys like you Tumble, I see no reason to deprive you guys of a treatment because a few people here donât understand what I am talking about.
It is a lot easier to sit home and suffer than to try something new that involves injections and hormones, it is scary for guys who know nothing about this stuff, but perfectly safe. We donât have to suffer, we can reverse this, we can all get better, I am proof, and my theories explain why CDnuts and -JN- recovered. They were constantly stimulating 5AR and using drugs or supplements to lower estrogen, it just took them a lot longer because they didnât know what I know, but they recovered from the constant 5AR DHT stimulation.
I am sure in 5 years using PCT protocols you will all recover too, but why wait? Havenât we been through enough? Is a testosterone injection and an anti estrogen that big a deal? It all has to do with the form of testosterone, propionate, the shortest ester, it comes on strong then fades away before it can aromatize too much.
Thanks for your support, we will all recover soon
With PFS eventually it will shut down your testosterone and DHT so much (over time) that you will not have enough testosterone to convert into estrogen. I suspect by the protocol your endo is using that that is the case, clomid wonât work, it has been tried over and over. If you do want to try it, when you start feeling testosterone it will be a bad feeling like estrogen, depression, anxiety, panic, just crappy feelings, take arimidex 0.5mg twice a day, it will reverse that and you will feel DHT (if you can produce enough).
This theory can work in many ways, but propionate and arimidex is the best, NEVER USE AROMASIN, I was advised about it by dr Jacobs, but it is suppressive of our condition. That explains why guys on Aromasin and test felt nothing, I told Dr Jacobs about it, no doctor could understand this unless he had it.
Unfortunately this stuff is neuro steroidal and hard to detect for that reason.
Thanks for the optimism. Yes, I will try the Testosterone Propionate and Arimidex, shortly. Still on Aromasin now. I donât want to move too quick, but yes I will get to it.
Itâs possible that one protocol may not work for everyone. That may be the case. However, when one protocol WORKS for one or more people, we all should sit up and take great notice.
Some guys just want to fault find and throw stones. They ignore and criticize a guy whoâs recovering because it contradicts their pet theories about how this disorder works.
Critics had a bad experience with TRT then make universal claims that TRT will not work for anyone. Then weâve got JQD having good success with TRT + AI, making universal claims it will work for everyone. The critics are guilty of the same thing they accuse JQD of (making universal claims).
Either way, doesnât matter. TRT + AI may work for some, and not for others. It has to be done the correct way, however. We have to try.
For those of you scared like myself of intramuscular injections I have been researching if subcataneuos injections will be okay, I found a video by Dr Crisler youtu.be/n98LOFQwUGA
Saying subcataneuos are just as good if not better and studies show it wonât aromatise either! He does say however that test propionate will burn regardless of subQ or IMâŚat least itâs a good thing right shooting through fat rather than muscle! He does his test shot this way and says his blood tests from clients show it is an effective way of administration.
JQD is espousing irrational, illogical and mythical statements left right and center. Anyone with a reasonable understanding of hormones can see this. There is no point and addressing them as if I did that on this forum I would be here almost all day every day. I have much better things to do.
I suggest people get a solid understanding of the endocrine system if they want to narrow down the causes of PFS. There are many good medical textbooks on andrology and endocrinology, you can find them second hand as they can be very costly new. Buy say 5 of them spend 6 months reading them all and the discussions on this forum will reach new levels.
But I guess we do not need to do this as this thread is titled âFINAL PROTOCOL 100% PFS REVERSAL WITH DHT THERAPYâ I guess within 6 months everyone will be cured!!
If you guys notice, all he does is tell me I am wrong because he reads books, yet cannot logically make any kind of argument or address anything I have said. Itâs people like this trying to prevent you all from getting better. I just got off the phone with another very well known member here and critic of me. After 2 days of phone calls and hours of discussing, he know understands these theories and is a believer and is going to try the protocol. I wonât relesse his name unless he gives me permission. He was one of my biggest critics and he is a very smart guy, this is complicated stuff and hard for everyone to understand. Even for a smart guy like him, it took hours of phone calls for him to understand fully.
Soon there will be recovery after recovery with this protocol, thatâs my only intention. Since this guy says everything I am saying is false then he must also think dr Jacobs is wrong. He has agreed with everything I have said, so this guy must think his medical books make him smarter than dr Jacobs as well.
Then again, Iâm wrong because he reads medical books, you guys are just going to have to trust him, best to stick with pfs and suffer. Maybe try diet and exercise, he probably is sure that will work too lol.
And as for time, Iâm sacrificing my business and spending my time helping others here till a few people reverse this and understand and can spread the info. So yes, itâs costing me money and time, but itâs what I feel I was meant to do. Unfortunately explaining something this complex is not easy, and there are some here who just would rather stay sick with pfs. Once one or two people start recovering the word will spread and I can move on.
Can you pm me your latest protocol please. I started your old one but it has changed now so I need the new one (with explanation) I Was using aromasin but now you say it will not work. I am a simple guy with low iq who struggles with simple things like wiping his own arse so please help me. I wish I was brave and intelligent like you. It sucks being cowardly and stupid so I must look to great men like you to help me. You are a great man and inspiration to all. Please help me.
[/quote]
Finbasteride, you are a good guy, no one can remain sane with estrogen dominance, did you know the Nazis injected guys with estrogen to torture them?
The protocol is really simple
Testosterone propionate 10mg every (see if you can handle every day)
Arimidex 0.5mg (as needed), but taking 0.5mg of arimidex twice a day should be good enough, if not take it 4 X a day. Donât be afraid, it is very safe. They have tested arimidex in studies up to 60mg! All you need is 1 to 2mg a day.
Everyone is different, so start small. This dose is a joke, 10mg of test is a complete joke, HRT prescribes 200mg a week at once in 1 shot.
So inject testosterone propionate 10mg (watch youtube videos on how to inject in your butt or âgluteâ).
Order intramuscular syringes (not hard to find)
Order Arimidex (easy to get).
Start with testosterone propionate 10mg, then on that day take 0.5mg of arimidex 4X a day, space it out evenly.
See how you feel on that day, if you feel panic, anxiety, depression, despair, muscle twitches, trouble taking deep breaths, that is estrogen, the amount of arimidex should be enough. If you feel any of those symptoms take 0.5mg of Arimidex and wait an hour and see how you feel then.
So if you feel good, it is DHT, if you feel bad it is estrogen, so if you space out the Arimidex 4 times a day it should work out. Do this for a week or two then try to see how much arimidex you need, less, or more. You will know by how you feel, that is better than any hormone test. I have proven that to Dr Jacobs by making my levels perfect by how I feel and managing it that way with drugs and hormones.
After 2 weeks then try lowering arimidex by 1 pill a day, for a week take 0.5 3x a day instead of 4, do this adjusting every 2 weeks till you find the dose of arimidex you need. If you feel panic, anxiety and bad feelings, depression, PFS crash like symptoms, take 0.5mg wait an hour, and you will feel better, if you still feel any PFS crash like symptoms (estrogen) take another 0.5mg arimidex and wait an hour, you will feel better. When your dose is right you will feel testosterone, itâs how you felt when you were 18, but this is a low dose, hopefully we al will be able to handle more and more. However, this dose while low, is enough to keep you happy and healthy.
So start out on 0.5mg of arimidex a day, 10mg testosterone propionate every other day, try to increase your testosterone to once a day, see how you handle it. It is all about how you feel, if you feel testosterone (horniness, positive feelings, aggressiveness) you are where you need to be. Depression and all the bad feelings your estrogen is too high. I am happy too help guide you through this, thatâs a general protocol that should get you back on track, as you lower your arimidex you will find your sweet spot, and every month your body will respond better and better. Feel free to ask me for help on figuring out your dose, this is the treatment and cure, itâs just about finding the right doses of each med for everyone, just go by what you feel, but follow this for 2 weeks first to see who it goes.
I read that subcutaneous injections aromatize more, thats is why I didnât mention it, I think they do aromatize more. Please stick to intramuscular just for 2 weeks. I tried subcutaneous and I think I had more estrogen, injecting yourself in your butt doesnât even hurt, it is not as scary as it looks. You feel that less than any other shot, watch tons of youtube on how to do it.
I just am afraid to try subQ as everything is working perfect for me and I am recovering, I donât want to offset things, but I will try it in a week or 2 and let you guys know. For now, please follow this exact protocol, I ignored my fears about Aromasin being suppressive and look what happened. I have fears subQ aromatize more, we can always change later, nothing is more scary than PFS, estrogen causes cancer, and it makes you afraid of your own shadow, that is why you are so scared, trust me. When I fixed my estrogen I totally changed.
Anyone who reads your posts and has a good understanding of endocrinology and rational mind can see that you are making incorrect statement after incorrect statement. I just feel for the others who are not so educated reading this thinking they will get - âFINAL PROTOCOL 100% PFS REVERSAL WITH DHT THERAPYâ. Many people are very emotional fragile here and will grasp on the any signs of hope no mater how many flawed statements it is backed up by.
No need to discuss this further. Let the proof be in the pudding as they say. I will revisit this thread in 6 months when we pfs men have âFINAL PROTOCOL 100% PFS REVERSALâ and PFS is a thing of the past.
I am not saying that pushing your hormones around with TRT and anti estrogens will not provide some limited relief for a number of people. But this releif will not be lasting they will need to take more and more drugs and hormones like what has been happening in this thread to try and maintain. Soon enough the side effects of this combination and the rollercoaster will be too much to bear. We have seen this pattern over and over in this form for years.