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JustQuitDut, you just made a post stating Aromasin is no longer the correct drug to use, and that Arimidex is instead. Why have you deleted your post?
Just thought this was interesting, since we are talking about estrogen dominance. Lots of guys use Nolvadex to try to recover because itās supposed to be an anti-estrogen. This says quite the contrary, at least in men with BHP.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6193975
No wonder no one has recovered using it, it shoots E2 through the freaking roof! However, if you could control estrogen production it might be promising, although I donāt know if you would be able to suppress that much of an increase.
Just to add to the thread, so JQD, youāre saying you arenāt seeing much success with Aromasin in others and that Arimidex seems to be working. Are they having to dose 1 mg per hour? I thought that Arimidex would cause a build up in the system and an eventual crash if its not a suicide inhibitor like Aromasin. Arimidex would be competing for the receptor and estrogen would still be in the system. Iām just a noob trying to get a handle on this. Iām not questioning your theory, in fact I definitely think you are on the verge of perfecting an amazingly effective treatment. Iām just trying to understand.
ANH
I personally feel completely normal after finasteride except maintaining an erection and orgasms have no feeling. Almost completely numb. Barely feel it. Do you think this protocol would help me?
Thank
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I have been trialing some Trib. for about 3 days now with dex off and on depending on how I feel. At this point I canāt give a definitive conclusion. I still have vision problems , erased personality, low sensation, no libido, depressed mood, brain fog.
Now I think its important to ask the question. How long does it take for a non-PFS guy to respond to TRT. Sounds like its not necessarily right away. [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iUM4nKP0dA[/youtube]
I donāt know if I had low T before Fin, I may have, but I felt like a normal human. After Fin crash I feel like an alien, sick, shrunk, horrible. For now pain in my prostate and dick has subsided. Ironically no erectile issues. I still have many low T symptoms. I hope to give TRT a try soon. My current blood work supports giving it a try.
If nothing works I donāt know how you guys live through this shit. I feel like a ghost. Like I donāt exist at all.
THere are so many holes in what JustQuitDut has said I do not have the time to point them all outā¦
Respect Vincent but letās focus on the positives here since living positive is really hard for usā¦ JDQ is trying to get us out of this messā¦ CDNuts has the best protocol Iāve seen but this one may be betterā¦ who knowsā¦ if I had the money I would do a 30 day water fast 4X a year to try to heal this bit by bitā¦
would this heal I donāt knowā¦but thereās a possibilityā¦ raw food has cured cancer also Iāve found out ā¦google itā¦ they have a all natural place for treating cancer in southern California
JustQuitDut your going all over the place.
I thought you had this worked out ? Now your changing your protocol yet again.
Mark I have pfs still in reversal, as I figure out better ways to manage it I update you guys, what are you confused about snd I will clarify. I haven't changed anything, I'm just suggesting guys use arimidex instead of aromasin to start. I have had massive improvements switching from aromasin to arimidex only. I am doing this alone with only a few guys I have been able to work with to test things, I'm doing the best I can to keep you up to date on the progress.
The concept and theories are the same, the only form of test that works is propionate and you need to keep estrogen under control. I suggest you start with arimidex before aromasin after some recent findings, what is confusing? I know this is difficult mark, however, it won't be easy as pie, you will have to manage your estrogen to allow your dht to be stimulated and your body to recognize the ratio of testosterone to dht being off and start to compensate.
I will clarify if you ask what you are confused about?By taking a 5ar we blocked 5ar and altered the ratio of our hormones, estrogen to dht, we are changing that back to reverse the homeostasis back to normal.
The simple fact is most of took finasteride and totally obliterated the DHT to T and E ratio but had few side effects while doing this for days, weeks, months or years. I even grew new hair because my dht was so low but I had very few side effects. So we know what happens when you block 5ar as this is what finasteride does directly. And the effect of blocking 5ar does not cause most of the PFS symptoms it is when something else fails as a result of blocking 5ar that PFS occurs.
Anybody want to buy two bottles of Aromasin? Haha.
Keep it going JustquitDut, iām positive that everything im feeling is due to a imbalance in DHT estrogen and testosterone. Everything else is just a ripple effect of those hormones or enzymes affecting those hormones being off. Hopefully you can wean of the protocal and sustain your recovery. I plan to try something soon once I can get the wife pregnant dont want to mess with things before that. Iāve read about clomid and some other story here that has success with tamoxifen and know yours with arimidex. There is a link here! Estrogen. hopefully these guys at Harvard can at least help us find the imbalance.
IF you dont mind Iām not up for the TEst your taking(for now) do you think it would work with just the arimidex?
B
Guys, lets quit the nit-picking.
Ample evidence exists on steroid and TRT forums that extreme levels of estrogen (too high or low) eradicate libido, boners and sex drive etc. I have personally read these anecdotal reports for years. DHT, amongst other things, is a potent anti-estrogen in the body. Do the math. FIN knocked out DHT which allows estrogen to climb and get out of control = sexual side effects.
Google the hypothalamus-pituatary-testicular-axis (HPTA). Testosterone production is primarily governed by circulating estrogen in the body. The body assumes high levels of estrogen equate to high levels of circulating testosterone, so the body signals the testicles to make LESS testosterone. Similarly, the less circulating estrogen, the body assumes the less testosterone, and signals the gonads to make MORE testosterone.
Think about what happened to usā¦FIN knocked out DHT > estrogen climbed > testosterone production decline = sexual side effects + muscle wasting + depression + lethargy + fat gain etc.
Thatās why using an anti-aromatase drug during TRT is critical. Either Letrozole, Arimidex or Aromasin. JQD is having good success with Arimidex so thereās no reason not to try Arimidex. We can try all three. Some men just feel better (more sexual etc) on one AI, compared to another. The body is just weird like that.
Also remember that the aromatase enzyme and 5ar enzyme compete for Testosterone. The aromatase enzyme converts Testosterone into estrogen (bad). The 5ar enzyme converts Testosterone into DHT (good). By using an AI, we knock out the aromatase enzyme and FORCE more conversion of Testosterone into DHT. The more DHT circulating we have, the less AI we need because DHT is the bodys natural anti-aromatase drug, which is what weāre building up. This is what weāre doingā¦
This is all common knowledge guys. Steroid and TRT forums are littered with this information. There is nothing new or groundbreaking about JQDās information, except the PFS boards were completely ignorant to it The estrogen āsweet spotā (aka the Testosterone:Estrogen ratio) has been known for >decades in steroid/bodybuilding communities. However, even in 2014, most GPās and endocrinologists are still ignorant to it, which is why we see older men and PFS guys get prescriptions for TRT with no AI, feel good for a couple weeks, then get dead dick. hmmmmā¦
Anyway, I encourage all of us to at least be supportive in our collective experiments. JQD has had great success with a drug protocol which makes perfect sense. Thereās no reason why we should deride him or criticize him. Of course, he doesnāt have all the answers. Who does? But weāve got a solid theoretical and practical guide to go on, and we should run with it.
I think that is exactly right.
You said that just Aromasin and testosterone propionate would be enough to cure PFS.
Yup, that āsomething elseā is estrogen. Block 5ar > DHT declines > estrogen climbs > testosterone declines > DHT declines = sexual side effects + fat gain + muscle loss + lethargy etc.
Thatās how it works. We know that for a fact. There very well could be more to it.
What scientists and pharmaceutical companies donāt tell us is that ALL STEROIDS are also NEUROSTEROIDS. aka steroids are also neurotransmitters. So when we become deficient in one type of androgen and overweight in an estrogen, we literally THINK AND FEEL differently.
This is all factual and consistent with symptoms of PFS guys here.
There is more to it. Some guys take FIN and get no sexual side effects. Some guys take FIN and right away, they experience a collapse. Some guys, like me, take FIN for several months, and experience growing symptoms that continue years after discontinuation.
Anyone can speculate and engage in conjecture. I think each persons hormonal physiology exhibit different levels of resilience to external shocks. Some guys on steroids can do a Testosterone cycle, experience a huge increase in estrogen, stop the cycle, and their bodies will naturally calibrate to their pre-cycle T:E ratio. Estrogen will be high post cycle, but then their body brings it back down.
Other guys go on cycle, experience the same estrogen spike, and after cycle, they never recover. Sexual side effects, bloating, fatigue with E levels high as the sky. Their bodies hormonal system is comparatively not resilient. It doesnāt ārememberā to bring their E levels back down to what they were pre-cycle.
I think thatās what happened to PFS guys. PFS guys took fin, which fucked up our T, E and DHT ratios, and our bodies hormonal system wasnāt resilient to this external change. IOW, after FIN use, our bodies didnāt ārememberā what our normal T, E and DHT levels were originally, so we continued with our new messed up ratios = side effects persist indefinitely.
Why did some PFS guys crash immediately? Some over a period of weeks or a couple months? And some it took years before they crashed?
Because each body has a different resiliency to hormonal shocks. Some could withstand it better then others. Some could fight the constant assault on the bodies natural ratios, and continually worked to keep those ratios in balance, but over time, ālostā the battle, and sort of forget over time what their natural hormonal levels should be. Some guys, their bodies immediately āforgetā what their natural levels should be and collapsed immediately. Comparatively, these guys have a susceptible hormonal system.
Mark, if you have nothing constructive to contribute, please piss off. Thanks.
Mark, my protocol is going to evolve continuously, my theories have never really changed, they have evolved as I lesrned new things. Itās true, posting my progress can sometimes seem conflicting. I just feel that some here are hopeless, the doctors working with pfs are using very lame protocols. I seem to be teaching dr Jacobs stuff. The guys who have no hope and no idea about hormones can at least follow what I am doing and have something, isnāt thay better than suicide and suffering?
In science and experiments things change as we make new discoveries, aromasin is a steroid with a molecular makeup that is extremely similar to dht. I fear with this condition out systems are recognizing it as dht and it is possibly inhibiting recovery. I have bad pfs in reversal for 3 months, I have been modulating protocols and they have evolved. Dr Jacobs told me Aromasin was great, I asked him if it was suppressive, he never answered, he doesnāt knoe.
In my experiences dht has set this condition back, I started noticing I needed more arimidex being on aromasin. I quit the aromasin and my condition improved, increased response to testosterone, the people I am helping are using arimidex currently and not aromasin. the one person here on aromasin was non responsive. I am really disappointed that aromasin was not as advertised. I figured out key pieces to pfs which have allowed us to treat it not just with my protocol, but any that follow this theory.
I have proven it is estrogen in other pfs sufferers, you have to keep estrogen low and the only form of test that will manageable is propionate every other day or every 3rd day at a low dose. The idea is to restore the natural function of things so that your body adapts and homeostasis changes.
This isnāt voodoo or magic, the testosterone type must be propionate, the anti estrogen can be any, but must be administered symptomaticly. I was hoping to teach what I have figured out so that you guys could work on your own variations. I donāt know if aromasin is suppressive for s fsct, but it seems so based on my experiences. I have not allowed myself to suffer from estrogen dominance, I keep lowering estrogen whenever I feel it spike. I have learned how to manage pfs so that I can have all normal functions
I have seen that I recovered on continuous stimulation of my 5ar and dht and keeping estrogen under control. It started to change my homeostasis back, my system detected low dht and high test and the estrogen was kept low, then my system produced more dht. Dht has a 5 day half life, the more induced the better, the more induced the less estrogen we have. All the symptoms of pfs are estrogen, estrogen dominance, muscle twitches, trouble taking deep breaths, muscle spasms in calves.
Itās not the protocol thatās important, I recovered almost fully suffering with estrogen from testosterone enanthate by constantly modulating protocols to induce dht. Going to dr Jacobs only made me worse, his ideas and theories were weak, his suggestion to take aromasin was counter productive, I spent a lot of money on him. It seems I know more about pfs and how to treat it than anyone in the world as I have had the condition almost fully reversed where my body was controlling estrogen. I have managed to reverse it 100% with a simple protocol.
You guys must try propionate and managing the estrogen symptoms with arimidex, I have taken a lot of time from my business and life to try to share what I know. Itās overwhelming, but I just want you guys to understand and start working with this concept so that you can also be in reversal.
I uncovered a great mystery to which none of us could figure out, these crashes and what they are. In the end it is not one magical protocol, itās the knowledge of what this is and how to manage it. You must keep estrogen low so that testosterone can trigger dht and your system can recognize you have low dht and produce more.
This is how I have reversed this for 3 months so far, only propionate has worked consistently, but as for the AI, I encourage you to evolve and try new approaches. Progesterone, chrysin every day as a cream acting as an AI. The only way you can move past this is by managing your condition till your body corrects itself. I donāt have the strength to keep up with this posting, I need to start living my life again. I passed the knowledge on and will remain to help people when they start this, but listen to what I say and you can defeat this. Itās just a matter of changing back the homeostasis.
I have considered taking a break for a few and coming back, but I want you guys to get better, so Iām still deciding that. I hope you guys understand what is going
On and can work with it.
You have to keep stimulating dht, propionate is the best way to do it, constant pct protocols too, there are many ways. If you keep stimulating dht your system is going to start to respond, you have to keep estrogen low so the Neuro steroids can correct