usjustice- you sure the non-allergenic rhinnitis, sinusitis, and GERD are from WTC? I was on finasteride for 9 years and developed hearing problems as well as sinus. In fact, I have esustachian tube dysfunction cycling every three weeks as well as GERD.
Try trt alone and then after a couple weeks add hcg. HCG nullified all the positive effects of TRT for me.
I will try TRT alone to begin with but it has to work with hcg or I wont use it. I can’t handle having no balls. If I got laid I would be too aware of not having them!
add hcg after a couple weeks on trt. It was eeasier to quit trt when i was using HCG.
DB,
A few things - clomid is notorious for causing estrogenic sides at high doses (>25 mg/day = depression, moodiness, LACK OF LIBIDO, ED etc). The favored protocol by Crisler and Shippen is “low and long” (12.5 mg/day, 3 times a week). Several long-term studies have proven the efficacy of clomid at this dosing protocol, and somewhat higher (25mg/eod). Two studies by Sloan Kettering? have demonstrated clomid has a significant pro-sexual effect in hypo-gonadal men. I’m not saying it will work for you. I’m just saying at the bodybuilder quantities you took clomid at, depression, ed and lack of libido are NORMAL…The dosing protocol should be at least 6 months to 1 year, at 12.5 mg eod. The reason - to jump start an obviously sub-normal HPTA. This gives the protocol time to work.
I’m in your shoes. Our bloods are very similar (mid-range LH, low FSH, low testosterone). I’ve got generic clomid here. Still debating whether to run, or not. I took Diesel Test Hardcore in 2009? Worked amazing. Have yet to duplicate those effects. If and when I run clomid, I’ll run it low dose, for around a year, side effects permitting.
I’m no doctor, but if the sides were bearable, maybe get back on it, at the far lower dose. The low dose skip most of the bad sides, but still double T-levels, and if continued long enough, could restart your HPTA. I know the feeling man. I’m with you. I’ve read androgel has a significant prosexual effect (high 5ar presence in the skin = testosterone converts to DHT etc). Problem is, again, this route is suppressive.
How are you doing now?
Hi tumbleweeds,
Do you have to cut up a clomid tablet to get a 12.5 dose ?
We are not shut down. That is 2005 talk.
There is another reason for why we have low LH and FSH. In my opinion it is a a testosterone metabolite feeding back on the system and causing our problems.
Yes. The generic tabs come in 15 mg. Walmart or other pharmacies sell pill splitters. Doesn’t have to be exact, but good enough.
Speak for yourself. My testosterone came back in the bottom 15% percentile of the lab range. Basically the level of an 80 year old man. Very close to Deadballs labwork, actually. I’m 35.
I have no doubt at all that it will increase testosterone. But we have low testosterone due to a root cause which is not simply that we are “shutdown”. I guess you understand this but you are just trying to be hopefull and ignore the writing on the wall. I am not saying that chlomid will not help you I am simply saying we are not in anyway shut down. People who are shut down can inject test and they are as good as gold. You by now should know what happens when people inject testosterone with PFS.
I understand everything you said and respect that. Thing is, I doubt the solution to PFS is “one-size fits all”. The recovery section highlights this. Different things have worked for different people, including time, and guys have recovered. I’m not saying clomid (or TRT) is a solution. But it could work, for some people. There’s a good threat about TRT here. Some guys have said it worked well.
I’m using the 50mg clomid tablets(on and off) is that too high a dose should I cut the tablets in to 4 pieces ?
No no one has said TRT worked well. Worked well meaning its effects lasted. I know T works for a short time but then my free estrogen goes over range if my free T reaches mid range. This seems to one of the big problems for at least me. And this explains why free T is constantly low and when i push it up without blocking E things get better for a short time but when E catches up they get worse. Simply the fact is people are not suppresed here. Chlomid has many effects on the body like agonizing E and also antagonizing E in some cells. It therefore increases LH and T. Some of these effects could improve your symptoms but in general we are not suppressed as would a steroid user be. We have low T for another reason. Quite simply if you gain of clomid when you come of you will lose all benefit. This is not to mention the dangers of using synthetic medicines like clomid.
Is this deadballs guy still alive he has not been online in ages. Hope he got an autopsy for all our sake if he did not make it.
Ya, probably too high. Depends how often you take it tho? Some guys don’t get any estrogenic sides at 50 or 100 mg, every day or every other day. But from my reading, most do.
The best protocol is 12.5 mg, 3 times a week (Monday, Wednesday, Friday). This protocol still doubles T levels in most guys and keeps estrogenic sides to a minimum. I would buy a pill splitter, cut into quarters, and run it at that dose for at least one month. If sides aren’t a problem (mood or vision problems), then stay on it for at least six months to a year. As always, best to consult your physician. But the short, high doses meant to “jump start” the HPTA (ie 50-100 mg, per day, for one month), in many cases, don’t work.
There’s lots of problems with sample bias here. Anecdotal internet reports aren’t representative of all guys recovering from PFS. Generally, when it comes to health issues and internet forums, people don’t stick around once their problem is fixed. They go out and enjoy their lives. So what’s left is a biased sample set of guys who haven’t recovered. From this subgroup of people that are still sick, we have to be careful about applying observations from them to the ENTIRE group of PFS recoverers. This is essentially what you’re doing. I’m not saying you’re wrong, either. I’m just saying your sample group is extremely bias and incomplete. So drawing broad conclusions from this, is dangerous (and probably wrong).
As for TRT, it has to be managed. Same is true for any guy with low T. Estrogen has to be in a “sweet spot”. Too high, and erectile and libido problems emerge. Too low, and libido is killed. Again, Doctors have to be aware of this when applying TRT. Out of all the guys that have gone on TRT, were their doctors aware of the importance of controlling estradoil? the ratio it needs to be in? etc. Did you control estrogen during your TRT experience? See, this is complicated stuff. And even under the care of a well-meaning physician (who isn’t an endocrinologist), they can get poor results simply out of ignorance. And then the patient reports back here and concludes TRT doesn’t work and warns guys off it. This is a big mistake, when it could work well for guys like us.
Anyway, this is getting very theoretical, which I’m trying to avoid. My attitude is this - either we use our own bodies and experiment with possible solutions, or things could stay the same, forever. Some guys just get better over time. I did not. I’m going on 8 years here. No change. So, what do I do? Take a risk? Gamble? Clomid is an old drug, well-tolerated, with no long-term sides reported in men. Yes, everything is a risk. Especially pharmaceuticals. Merck lied to us about Propecia and Proscar, and lied about Vioxx. What other companies are lying about their drugs? You’re right. It’s a gamble. But doing nothing is a gamble, too. I lost 7 years of my sex, dating and social life. And everything that goes along with it (new and rewarding experiences, friendships, relationships, fun etc). We’re between a rock and a hard place here, man.
I can’t choose whats right for you. Only you can do that. But I would urge you to reconsider warning off other guys on treatments that might very well work for them, if applied correctly, by the correct physician. How many PFS sufferers went to their doctor with complaints of low T, were proscribed T replacement, and felt better, libido came back etc, and went happily along their way? We have no idea. Literally. I feel your pain. We’re in the same boat.
Maybe it worked for him and he didn’t wanna waste his time with this site anymore? Most people think like this and won’t stick around for long, once better. See what I mean?
I have been in this for 5 years and probably tried more than almost anyone on this board. I have recovered multiple times. I have been on TRT multiple times with almost all forms of T. I have tried other steroids, DHT, clomid, You name it.
The fact of the matter is we are not shut down. There could be some outlyers which were shutdown before propecia from steroids buts this is not what this condition is. There are plenty of experiences with TRT on this forum and many say they felt better at first then no better or worse. We need to explain this phenomenon. We need to study it in detail. When people are shut down they will take T and feel great and remain great. It is simple. If trt does not work you are not shut down. If does not make any logical sense in any respect to say we are shut down.
Yes I do not doubt clomid may offer benefits though one of its actions. That is great. But there is no plausable explanation how it will cure you for the long term. Of all the treatments I think clomid is one of the risky options. It is a totally synthetic substance that can cause permanent eye damage. And what about other long term effects which are not immediately noticeable.
If clomid itself does indeed aleviate symptoms we need to determine though what mechanism. If it is though the T boost alone then T should have been able to offer the same benefits. It could be though the estrogen antagonism if so we may look at estrogens being the problem etc.
You are right it has been a long time for most of us. We need to move forward. We have determined by logic and testing that PFS is not caused by being shut down. We need to focus on more productive areas.
Though my testing I have made very specific observations about my PFS issues that no one can answer with any theory here. :
Why is LH low but free T is high.
Why does T alone work for a week for wellbeing, energy and muscle
Why can I only ever get my libido back by lowering E.
Why cant I lower E in a stable manner.
When I start TRT after HCG I get no benefit in the first week, why?
Why on low dose TRT less than 10mg per day does my free e2 and e2 measured via siliva go over range.
Why dont I gain any muscle/strength on high dose TRT - 300 MG per week.
Why am I able to gain strength very quickly on low dose TRT with arimidex?
Why do all my PFS symptoms get way worse when my testosterone drops below range after quiting TRT?
Solving this is like one of those picture where you connect the dots and as you do this a clear picture starts to emerge. The problem comes about when we do not have any dots to connect we can not get any picture. So my goal is to make as many dots as I can.
If deadballs was recovered it is likely he would come here and update.
if he is still the same maybe he would not.
If he jumped of a bride, I remember him saying he felt quite bad he would not come back obviously.
Again, you make sweeping generalizations about PFS based on anecdotal observations from this message board. Totally unscientific and fraught with sample bias.
Legendary had a great restart with clomid and letrazole, which ameliorated nearly every single PFS symptom! Libido, erections, mood, muscle mass, brain fog = all cured during the run. Since you like generalizing based on anecdotal experiences, why were elevated T levels (and controlled estradiol) able to restore libido, erections, mood, muscle mass and brain fog for Legendary, if testosterone and estrogen have no bearing on curing PFS? Please answer that.
Also, could you please detail your clomid restart protocol? How much did you take? And for how long? And did you use an anti-estrogen? That information would be very helpful to all of us.
Done a week of 25mg Aromasin ED, no noticeable effect thus far, positive or adverse. Will keep at it though.