Deadballs - Clomid and letro restart!

unfortunately I think we are all grasping at straws because we cannot control the uncontrolable which is exactly what this syndrome seems to be.

VincentTV- you have had been able to manipulate how you feel but not sustained benefits which I think speaks to the fact that perhaps it is a receptor issue, in other words problems with signaling. I say this because this is what I have always thought change in the ration of prog/estorgen in the CNS which has litteraly screwed us all up and this is what the tests by the Italians revealed, higher levels of estradiol in our CNS. Again, I think when the fMRI’s are realeased I think we are going to see a certain excitibility in our brain, a change in our metabolism due to fin which has had a cascading affect that affects certain people in different ways. There seem to be people with normal to high testosterone and are just as bad as we are. We also cannot forget that clinically finasteride is suppose to raise testosterone levels up to 20% by supressing DHT. As a long time user of propecia with no noticeable side effects I can speak to this issue. I was muscular and as strong as ever on it.

Vincent you defintely raise good questions that need answering but this problem seems so incredible complex that we unfortunately don’t have the answers. In fact really the only common denominators on all the stories of recover are just two things: most people who have reported recovered or 90% or better had a very positive attitude from the beginning. Now obvious we can say that maybe they are just positive about their condition and perceive that they are actually doing much better. An alternative idea would be that since we already know that from the Italian studies dopamine levels were very low, perhaps feeling positive and boosting dopamine had some affect. The other common factor with the recovery stories has been time.

I do not think you read what I said. I pretty much said that I can cure all symptoms by increasing testosterone and reducing estrogen. But some symtoms last others do not. Loss of hair on head is stable, growth of body hair is stable on trt.

Libido is not stable it requires going on a roller coaster with anti estrogen. Strength improvements also require lowering estrogen.

I took one pill of clomid and did not continue as I got a floater. And also you can read studies about what happens when you overstimulate the testicles with substances like HCG or HMG it creates a mass of estrogen. Then you have to try and block that all with more anti estrogens. It is not easy to win this game. There are studies you can look up regarding this. BTW people who are suppressed usually have low estrogen levels and should not be taking anti estrogens because they have low E to start with.

I am saying that the problems can be cured with adjusting T and E. It is hard to remain stable for many tho. We need to answer why.

Taking letrozole alone will increase LH drasticly you do not really need to take clomid with it unless the benefits are coming from clomid blocking the estrogen receptors in some areas of the body.

dannyfc : I have tried many AI’s I think I only tried aromosin when I was actually shut down from TRT I remember it made me feel a bit aggrssive for a while but i did not feel much benefit. I had a full recovery of libido on Arimidex. I think steroidal AI’s are a bit tricky as they tend to have secondary effects. Are you going to be able to do a blood test of T SHBG E and albumen?

Okay. This is progress. Thanks for mentioning that. Have you considered taking a lower dose of clomid? Visual sides are common from >50mg, per day. Maybe try a lower dose? 25mg, eod? or 12.5 mg, eod? I’ll likely end up on the clomid myself, eventually. If you go over to Crislers board (allthingsmale), he’s had a TON of success with guys on clomid, for hypogonadism, which is very similar to what we’ve got. Check out Legendarys thread. That was a great thread about clomid man.

T and E is crucial. I agree. Your libido restart on Arimidex speaks to that. While our condition is distinct and separate, the ingredients for male sexual health are common to all of us. Higher testosterone. Lower estradoil. Lower SHBG. I know you want a permanent, natural fix. Maybe it’s possible. Maybe not. I’d be happy for just a fix.

I gotta get my sleep back to normal. That’s critical. GNRH > LH > TESTOSTERONE are secreted mostly during wave 3 REM sleep, which happens at night. Poor sleep habits interferes with this greatly. How are your sleep habits?

My sleep is fine.

And I am not just going to take clomid because it may work in some random manner. If I take something. I have to have an idea what exactly I am targeting and a way to determine any results.

Just taking clomid for the hell of it is not a good idea in my book. I took a low dose less than 25mg and got floaters. Read the article. SERMS the dark side.

I am not going to take clomid because I am shut down. I am not shut down. I know what shut down means. I was shut down after I quit TRT. I was very shut down and all symptoms got so bad. It took 2 months to recover to my usual PFS homestasis. And this is nothing to do with being shut down. There is something damaged or changed in our body which prohibits LH from increasing despite low free T. Using synthetic LH like HCG or HMG simply does not fix us. This shows us that it is not a problem of LH levels it is a problem further down the line. Testosterone is produced and after that there is some problem that occours. My belief is that our T : E ratio shifted when we crashed due to something being damaged. Now our LH is low becaue of this and this is why TRT works for about 1 week for many. After one week that screwed up homestasis with testosterone and metabolites comes back. We are no better and in some cases worse. Many here do get big imporvements on TRT but no one can maintain the postive benefits for the long term. They can try and take AIs. This usually leads to a roller coaster ride where they may feel good for a while then worse than ever.

In normal men, overstimulting the testicles with HCG (lH) is a very bad idea as it results in a big wave of estrogens. This is exactly what we are wanting to avoid. Taking clomid does exactly this. But it also has many other confusing effects in the body like acting as an estrogen in some tissues and blocking in others.

The only guy I know who is treating this in a stable manner seems to be mark.r.d who is taking testosterone and nandrolone and now I think some HCG. Apart from that you may find some outlyers but unfortunately that is what we are dealing with here.

Lowring e2 via letrazole is going to increase LH anyway. So you do not need the clomid for this effect.

Finnatruth : “An alternative idea would be that since we already know that from the Italian studies dopamine levels were very low, perhaps feeling positive and boosting dopamine had some affect. The other common factor with the recovery stories has been time.”

There is a common link between gum recession and low dopamine levels. - Low T.

How do you know you’re not shutdown? Ever measure your hormones before finasteride?

I’ve read four glowing reviews on clomid tonight, on this message board. Many who said it didn’t work, dosed at 50-100 mg eod, didn’t manage estradiol, and medicated for a short period. You yourself said you took one pill, got a floater, and quit.

The common thread between guys who fail on clomid are three things:

  1. they dose too high
  2. they dose for a short period of time
  3. they don’t monitor or control estradiol…

Again, the correct protocol is critical. If I get a headache, eat a whole bottle of aspirin, and end up in the emergency room with stomach ulcers, does that mean aspirin doesn’t ameliorate pain? No. It means I didn’t use the medication properly. You took one pill and wrote it off as useless (or dangerous). Your experience doesn’t speak to the usefulness of the drug (except that it can cause visual sideeffects).

SERM’s have side effects. Yes, for clomid, one can be floaters.

Nothing here dissuades me. You’ve got theories based around individuals who failed on clomid, but completely ignore the individuals who experienced success with it. Then admit PFS symptoms can be ameliorated with higher testosterone and lower e2, which is one element clomid addresses. AI’s can boost testosterone, but not to levels clomid does. Also, estrogen is a necessary and critical hormone to the male body.

I have some background in bodybuilding and male hypergonadism. Clomid, even at 25mg eod, can and does cause moodiness, depression, lower libido and ed in men. Now, when you start talking 50mg or 100mg every day, these are herculean doses, and most bodybuilders and normal guys will experience a crash in libido, even though testosterone levels are doubled, and in some cases, tripled. This is normal. This results largely from aromatization of extra T floating around. This has to be controlled. When controlled, or using a lower dosage, a lot of guys feel better. This is important to recognize because many of the guys who quit clomid here, dosed very high, felt like shit and watched their libido plummet from the deluge of e2, quit, then wrote off clomid. That’s whats going on here.

Okay, so are you still taking Arimidex? If not, why? Are you trying to increase testosterone and decrease estrogen? If so, how?

Did you get bloodwork taken when you felt good on Arimidex? Or when you felt poorly? This is critical. To document our hormonal levels when we feel “good” (libido, erections, happy etc). This gives us a personal blueprint on what hormonal combinations “work” best for us, individually. Taking bloodwork when we feel bad, paints a more accurate picture.

No when I have improved I did not take blood tests. I should have but i thought I recovered. It is actually hard to get to the same point. I tried again and it did not work.

That is my goal now. Is to take blood tests when I feel worse vs recovered. But I can not test everyything only T SHBG and E. There could be other intereactions causing this problem.

Last time i used arimidex i was on TRT. Honestly i had some good periods and on a strong dose I was able to gain muscle. But I could not stay in the sweet spot long. I should have done a blood test. The same things happened on pes erase.

Maybe I will try a low dose of letrozole again but I think if it crushes your estrogen that will make u feel worse. And also you have to ask if it is about T : E balance what is causing this extra e? Where is it coming from? Can we say our whole body is creating more? Or is it in a specific area such as adrenals, testicles or even prostate? If this is the case when we take anti e drugs we can send e too low in tissues like the brain but may not be able to get total e prpoduction down.

Another factor is I can find studies of people increasing T with AIS but I have never seen one showing an increase in muscle strength or bon strength. But we doo so studies showing an increase in free T by injection directly relates to an increase in bone mass density and muscle stength.

If we think it is E we need to understand why we are creating too much E. This is critical! I have been trying to investigate this. The only thing i can come up with is that we should have blood taken from spermatic and adrenal veins to see if these organs are producing too much of some hormone.

Yeah I should be able to get that tested after a month to see where I stand. It’s probably the SHBG that’s still holding me back rather than the estrogen.

Estrogen is one of the main stimulator or SHBG so lower estrogens should lower SHBG.

All side effects wore off after 6 weeks. Sorry I haven’t checked this forum for so long and not seen your post.

I hit the gym during and after my protocol and started to feel slightly better for a while my test went from low normal to high normal. Libido from 5 to 10% normal to 25 - 30 % normal but has since dropped back to baseline. I am very lucky though in that cognitive side effects, anxiety and low energy are totally gone. Also I don’t really get erection problems. I’m just left feeling partially a- sexual and without electricity.

Vincentv is still taking Saw Palmetto, another 5ar inhibitor. I just can’t see how anyone in their right mind would continue taking a known 5ar inhibitor after experiencing PFS, and then coming on this board to speculate. It just boggles my mind.

Looks like I was right. The new study does suggest 3bdiol is too high in PFS users. The question is does Saw P actually suppress it.

Vincentv- what new study are you referring to?

libgen.org:8088/scimag/?s=10.101 … 014.03.012

I hope someone will actually test theirs as I have been suggesting at meridian labs. They have a test for T DHT 3bdiol and 3adiol.

I came to the conclusion 3bdiol was an issue before I saw this study because 3bdiol is very estrogenic and binds strongly to SHBG. My siliva E2 dows not match my blood E2. This indicates a binding issue and 3bdiol would compete with e2 for SHBG binding.

Also when going on formestane my DHT seems to have dropped but i feel improvements meanwhile my siliva e2 went up.

Please we need some people to do this test to confirm the levels.

meridianvalleylab.com/testosterone-metabolites

The study indicates 3adiol was higher in PFS but as we know 3adiolg seems to be lower. 3adiol binds to the androgen receptor and is androgenic as far as I know.

Next step will be working out where this 3bdiol is being produced and why.

Hi, DB, was it clomid that fixed your mental sides? I’m only left with brain fog and lethargy as the main PFS experience…wondering if the low dose clomid trial might help. Thanks guys.

Sorry late reply. I never had mental sides “off” the drug. My only sides are loss of morning erections and loss of libido and clomid didn’t cure either of those!

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