Yea it’ll increase shbg, but its how you clear out RT3…as i said… i need to get it tested…
Don’t really have a dog in this fight. My 8 AM cortisol is elevated above normal ranges (mine are like 27-29 ng/dL, range caps at around 23 IIRC). My 8 AM ACTH is relatively low, around 10 which is low according to a post I’d seen on stopthethyroidmadness.com (the author did a meta analysis of ACTH values and belives the “normal range” is steadily drifting lower).
Based on saliva analysis (a technique of debatable efficacy) my mid day and late afternoon coritisol values are too low, so I follow a “stressed adrenals” pattern of over production in the AM and underproduction in the PM.
The use of DHA conjugated phosphatidyleserine (400-500 mg/day early AM) brings my 8 AM cortisol down to 16 to 22 ng/dL, still high but better. This substance is believed to resensitize the HPA axis to the bodies cortisol levels, and thus should be effective whether coritsol is too low or too high. This therapy is expensive. Eggs can give you some PS so on days when those are breakfast I take the lower dose.
Don’t think I’ve ever posted my thyroid values. TSH is always right around 1, need to look up T3, RT3 and T4 (have them post fin with no other treatments, on topical hydrocortisone/pregnenelone, and off the topicals but on clomiphene0.
Carry on, but be excellent to each other - we are all in this together and most of us are grumpy from allopregnanolone deficits, so quit bickering.
The more I think about it. I really don’t think we (Colin and I) have low overall cortisol production prior to fin. But my question is, why don’t I feel awful? As I said before, my symptoms arent that severe… My heart rate beats fast when I walk upstairs, i have weird breathing patterns in the AM (low cortisol symptom). But as far as energy is concerned, its not nearly as bad as the cortisol would indicate…
Colin, do you have any digestion issues?
The reason i ask is because of Paulwaters2006 theory suggested:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=335&start=20
… not the GHB section but scroll down to page 2 near the bottom when he talks about candida, I know bear with me for a second, but it may have some bearing, because what he is saying actually makes sense. I only mention this because almost ALL of the recoveries involve a sugar free diet in some way or another… not saying candida is a factor but the part about a leaky gut that would lead to adrenal insufficiency as welll…
Topical HC is next to useless
I have no disgestion issues and to be honest my diet is pretty terrible, too. I’m sure a strict diet would help but i don’t think its the key for me anyway. I dont seem sensitive to foods either way.
And yeah, probably not. I think our systems slowly downregulated themselves. We don’t feel terrible because things are “stable”…as Chillin said, many of use guys are surprisingly stable - our systems have simply reset to new meager levels and see these are default. Its certainly possible.
I took a fair few pumps of preg last night incidentally and i had erections all last night. That’s twice now. There’s definately some connection in my mind, im just not sure if its strong enough to make a significant difference in relation to my sex hormones. I reckon if i get my estrogen down via arimidex and then i use preg id become much more responsive to benefits. I might try the HC tablets first though as buying a load of cream and putting it on 3 or 4 times a day isn’t really feasible in the long run.
I should say - i’ve always been someone who hated mornings but yet was full of life in the evening/night time. So many my levels always have been lowish in the morning.
I dont really have digestion issues either, but there are a number here that do…IDk I was just throwing it out there…Ive heard youre not suppose to take preg at night, rather in the morning… Do you have any high estrogen symptoms? Because I wouldn’t be surprised if you didnt…
Yes, i do have estrogen issues. It’s off the chart high. I actually believe its my main problem, if not the source of all my sex hormone problems. We’ll see how i respond to the arimidex but my e2 levels would sexually restain just about anyone which is why im so confident ill improve drastically.
Thanks kazman! Saliva test is the only test considered reliable by Dr Crisler, who has a good record of solving adrenal issues in his patients. In particular, he considers this test very accurate to measure free cortisol, while very inaccurate to measure anything else. Having varying cortisol levels (high in the AM, low later in the day) can be normalized, according to Chilln, simply by using pregnenolone when you are low in cortisol (in the PM).
The fact that you are on a very long run of clomid and that you are already addressing your adrenal glands makes you a perfect candidate for proving or disproving Chilln’s theory. Again, according to him, clomid should basically cure you as long as the following points are all satisfied:
- your testicles can make enough T (I assume this is true, otherwise you wouldn’t be on clomid)
- your cortisol is in the high range all day (test using a saliva test x 4) – this should guarantee that your RT3 is NOT high.
- your FT4 and FT3 are both at the top of the range
This theory could explain, for example, why clomid cured Dury: he addressed his thyroid before and during the clomid treatment – and apparently his adrenal glands have always been fine. Other people have taken clomid unsuccessfully, but only he took it together with thyroid medications. Another example seems to be JN, for whom TRT seems to have started working only after he addressed thyroid and adrenal issues. Another example is ithappens: other people took Xyrem without success, but only he took it together with hydrocortisone. Keep us posted if you measure cortisol or thyroid. Although these examples do not prove that Chilln’s theory is right, they seem to identify adrenal/thyroid issues as the cause of the inefficacy of any treatment in us PFS people.
PS: I don’t mean to use you as a guinea pig! In fact, I am just trying to find any counter-example of Chilln’s theory, in an effort to disprove it. Anybody else who has saliva tests and blood test that can disprove the theory, please post your results. Thanks.
Interesting post buddy.
I agree generally in that all bases need to be covered. I think its ridiculously simplistic to say “oh my TRT didn’t cure me therefore it doesn’t work for PFS” when the person had clear thyroid and/or adrenal issues aswell. For a real “restart” you’ll need to get all systems firing. The endoctrine system works as one in practice, it’s important we fix every little thing. That is why i made a post earlier today saying im fed up of hearing how “countless” efforts at protocols failed as most of these attempts were ill-considered and not complimentary to their bloods or other problems. For instance i hear “oh anti-estrogens aren’t the answer” or “clomid is crap” when they werent even used correctly. Things need to be used synergistically etc.
YES we know PFS is complicated but some people concluding swiftly that one thing or the other doesn’t work “because PFS is different” is not really helpful. The reason that some people get better with treatments and others don’t is some were more lucky to have their stars aligned (i.e. that had the perfect conditions for that treatment to work). Most people arne’t as lucky but most of us have certain protocols that would definately help them.
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I hope you dont mind me chiming in…
I suspect I have elevated cortisol from propecia, mainly because I havent been sleeping well and I wake up about 3am, having trouble getting back to sleep.
I yet need to do a saliva test…
Anyway, I read a couple of studies that black tea can reduce cortisol by about 20%. I also cut out coffee. Coffee is suppose to elevate cortisol.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5405686.stm
springerlink.com/content/m226111566k24u65/
I bought some loose tea and use a french press. Its really good with some half and half.
Its not a cure all, but definetly a moderate improvement
This is a common issue from the drug likely due to its interference with GABAergic system in the brain (due to decreased neurosteroids), as well as impaired Nitric Oxide synthase/NO release. Both are implicated in sleep/wake states and REM sleep.
This applies only to people that are currently taking finasteride – please, correct me if I’m wrong. So, it’s not the reason of his disrupted sleep. The reason of his disrupted sleep seems indeed to be caused by cortisol issues, which obviously have been triggered by propecia.
You won’t know if and when it’s too high or too low until you take a saliva test. Usually, too high cortisol overnight (when it’s supposed to be low) is caused by too low cortisol during the day (when it’s supposed to be high). The work-around is to supplement via pregnenolone in order to ensure that cortisol is high during the day. If you can do this, then cortisol will have to be low during the night, allowing you to sleep. Note, though, that there are a lot of exceptions. For example, you may have high cortisol all day and night (like me). This case is probably caused by excessive inflammation that cannot be repaired because of lack of testosterone or growth hormone. There are a lot of other cases, though. So, you should really take a saliva test to see which case you are.
Maybe a worthless add but related to kngreen: my mother used to be a terrible sleeper all these long years: once she woke up (very easily), she couldn’t get sleep again so she stayed until morning. This changed once she started her T4 treatment to hypothyroidism. I haven’t asked whether she gets sleep easier now but she says that she can now sleep again once she wakes up easily now.
This is not to say that T4 fixes anything but rather, i think it indicates problems with thyroid/adrenal axis.
Correct me if i’m wrong or if this is false information, please.
You are absolutely correct. Unlike Mew said, this does not depend on some neurotransmitter being blocked by propecia, for the simple reason that we are not on propecia. This problem is not caused by propecia, but by a very big health problem (is it the only one?) that propecia created: a complete “mess” in the adrenal/thyroid axis. Other people, especially aging people, who never took propecia can have problems related to the adrenal/thyroid axis. In our case, though, this problem seems to be extremely big and hard to reverse.
Obviously, as you correctly say, the treatment depends on the particular issue you have. So, T4 is not always the cure (it very rarely is). If your mom is hypothyroid, then it means that she had an excess of cortisol, because thyroid hormones and cortisol work together to increase metabolism. Therefore, without thyroid hormones, cortisol tends to stay high, which causes insomnia. In 90% of the cases, though, we are different, in that we have the opposite problem: a too low cortisol. This can be confirmed by a saliva test or, alternatively, by a high RT3 (which indicates that the thyroid works but its hormones get “stored” because there is not enough cortisol to make them work)
I’m not disagreeing with Mew or made up my mind about this issue/on what are the reasons behind our condition but otherwise, I completely agree with you. I don’t know for how many adrenal/thyroid is the issue (my careful stance on this is nothing personal) but so far this theory has some legitimacy in my eyes. I’m talking about all the stuff you have said in this topic, i don’t want to cite all of them now as i’m under stress/hurry with other stuff atm.
And yeah, i know T4 should be insufficient for thyroid and needless to say i’m not satisfied with how our family’s symptons are now. Personally, my TSH has always been high even on T4 (sorry, T3’s and RT3’s ain’t tested yet but will do in nearby future) and i have pretty clear symptons of adrenaline fatigue NOW so i have literally nothing to lose with fixing them.
Neither do i know the rates of my ferritin (for thyroid), IGF or progesterone. Might do dolichol treatment to see if that part of the chain is interrupted too (dolichol is the hip now 
)
Perhaps you haven’t worded that perfectly but you’re absolutely right. Finasteride has caused a myraid of different symptoms in different people. But alot of this is not directly caused by how finasteride works or what it does. Instead its created by imbalance / stress caused on the endoctrine system that has trickeled down.
This is why, i feel, desperately finding links to every symptom doesn’t really help us. Most of the things are actually derived from general disruption to the endoctrine system. No doubt Mew et al will hurry to disagree with me here but i truly believe this.
This would explain why there’s such a random mix of symptoms, severity and other conditions throughout this board because all our systems have coped differently.
On the other hand, the more direct working of finasteride have brought about a very consistent set of sexual symptoms. No coincidence.
m_81: When do you take pregnenolone to insure that cortisol is high during the day, in the morning or in the evening?
A good rule is to take it in the morning and every time you feel sleepy or brain-fogged, but not after a certain time in the afternoon (e.g. 4 PM or so) – otherwise you may have too much energy in the evening. Note, though, that a pregnenolone-only supplementation does not necessarily results into a cortisol increase. I used to take about 600 mg pregnenolone per day and my cortisol remained exactly the same. In other words, pregnenolone was being backed up. The reason is that my metabolism was too low. Only after adding T3, did my cortisol increase and partially (and very limitedly) achieve the goal of downregulating testosterone. The evidence for this is a 10% drop in SHBG, while all the other sex hormones remained constant. Right now, my body does not need such a high SHBG to downregulate testosterone, because cortisol is downregulating it. Note, though, that my SHBG is still high, indicating that I need even more cortisol to further downregulate T.
According to Chilln, you can increase the conversion from pregnenolone to cortisol by supplementing with biotin. Somebody on this board obtained good results with it (theDuck), further confirming that a high level of cortisol (and thyroid hormones, which theDuck seems to have already) can lead to an improvement in all symptoms, including the sexual ones (http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4625&hilit=biotin). Unsurprisingly, nobody believed him because biotin does not have anything to do with propecia.
Actually, 10-15 mcg a day decreased my SHBG (51 --> 43) and left all the other sex hormones unchanged. To avoid an increase in SHBG, you need to keep your cortisol high while on T3, because T3 will tend to “consume” it. And, as we know, low cortisol leads to high E2 and/or SHBG.
I think i might try HC and see how that goes.
Reason being i have seen mild results from 1% preg, im pretty sure 5% would help. But as you say it mightn’t directly help cortisol.
I’d be willing to try supplement cortisol directly with HC and see if this boost in costisol helps as it should. If so then i could decide by best bet of how to continue boosting it.
Still going to take the arimidex though.