Are our symptoms due to a chroic infection?

General Discussion
#141

If pfs is hormonal I am curious what cells are involved or damage.

There is redundancy in the body. You could lose a testicle and still feel fine. You could lose an adrenal gland and feel ok. I also think you could lose cells in your pituitary or hypothalamus and feel ok.

So if fin damaged us which cells were damaged and how many?

Why do many take the drug and quit many times but one day they seem to crash? if this is caused by cellular damage, how many cells are suddenly damaged? If fin slowly damaged you, you would think you would slowly get better with time.

Why are there guys like JG, italysideeffect, david_1986 who recovered to almost 100% but then crashed years later? If this was caused by massive cellular damage how would such recoveries be possible.

Why dont 99% of people get pfs if this drug is so toxic.

What about the guys crashing on herbs why do only a tiny fraction crash? I read 1 million people in the US take saw palmetto.

Even guys with low t do not have our symptoms. Transgenders who take high doses of E also do not have our symptoms.

#142

i want to mention some other guys I talk to who all have 0 or very low libido plus other side often seen in fin.

Patrick in New Zealand - Used Minoxidil now has 0 libido and other pfs sides.
Hani Lebanese guy in US - Used Minoxidil now has 0 libido has other pfs sides
Arian Iranian guy in US - Took some herbs to gain muscle which was not saw palmetto - Has 0 libido now and some other pfs like symptoms. One herb seems to be dht inhibtor.
Vietnamese guy in singapore - Took some unknown herbs from chinese vendor to gain weight - Got itchy head ED and later full libido loss, brain fog loss of emotions.
Spanish guy - Saw palmetto - Low libido and other sides
SpStricken - Indian guy in canada - Saw plmetto - All sides like PFS.
Various other guys who took SP and are in the same state as us.

So none of these guys actually took fin at all. They used minoxidil, muscle building herbs or saw palmetto and they ended up like us.

Even if SP is a dht inhibitor in general it does not seem that strong. One study in the US shows that 1 million people use it.

So how can these guys be totally fked from a herb millions use. Surely it can not be so toxic or no one would dare to take it.

There are many theories here about 5ars etc. How do they explain minox causing PFS?

I guess i am not buying into any theory saying that millions of cells in our bodies some how got reprogrammed and damaged. More likely it seems that these drugs led though some mechanism to the boy going into a massive inflammatory and disregulated state. Maybe an autoimmune type reaction but I think often infections are behind autoimmunity. It is really hard to say exactly. A number of guys here are testing positive to mycoplasma. Everyone here seems to have dysbiosis according to their stool tests. But what set of this dysbiosis?

Why do about half the guys in my above list have red in their throats?

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#143

Here is a guy complaining of chronic fatigue for a long time and recently losing his libido along with other symptoms associated with CFS. Also has high rt3 like most of us here.

anabolicminds.com/forum/male-ant … stion.html

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#144

For those who are thinking this is all hormonal / neurosteroids.

My question is how would hormone changes cause our state? Look at the millions of people taking SP, Fin and other herbs and drugs. Within days on fin you DHT is annihilated along with your neurosteroids presumably but it seems like the vast majority of those taking SP and fin feel almost totally fine while on these drugs. So their hormones are way out of balance but yet they do not have PFS.

For those saying it is estrogen look at transgenders taking estrogen. They simply do NOT have pfs.

Also we are not taking any drugs that actively manipulate our hormones. On the other hand 1mg of fin probably contains billions of finasteride molecules that spread though the body and inhibit enzymes,but again, most on fin and SP feel pretty much fine. If blocking receptors or 5ar with fin and SP caused PFS people would get from the first pill they took. But they simply do not. Studies show 1 million people in the US are taking SP, if blocking andogens caused PFS they would all be suffering pfs when they started the drug. I do not think these hormonal theories make much sense at all. Perhaps if fin caused the growth of some tumor which started producing hormones like crazy that would make more sense but we have not found this to be the case.

It seems more likely that FIN somehow threw us into a chronic fatigue state, maybe fin broke down our immune defenses and allowed some dormant pathogen to activate? Maybe a beak down of the blood-brain barrier allowing viruses or other pathogens to enter the brain which then put the immune system into overdrive with mass inflammation cause PFS symptoms. Maybe the drug was just a cellular stresser which initiated something like MCAS/MCAD. But in the end I think chronic fatigue and MCAS etc have some kind of underlying infectious agent which the body is struggling to control.

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I have a theory about PSSD/PFS/PAS
#145

Kidney damage… ? :neutral_face:

#146

People can lose a kidney and they do not get PFS. People can get all kinds of kidney damage and they seem to not get pfs.I think if fin was causing kidney damage or SP was we wouldknow about it.

#147

That’s true I knew various people with kidney and liver problems and their life was very difficult physically like the lack of energy and strength from the start of the morning like they were decades older, but they didn’t suffer obvious mental/cognitive or severe sexual problems. But PFS is many mystery problems under one name and probably has more than one root cause.

#148

This guy had:

loss of libido
fatigue
brain fog
no libido
muscle twitches

He never took fin. He had chronic fatigue and recovered everything. You can see his webpage and you tube channel. His focus seems to be on avoiding mold and other toxins then detoxifying using various things.

Chronic fatigue can cause all the symptoms of PFS.

stopyourfatigue.com/about/

youtube.com/channel/UC4RbZJ … 458zS_XMOQ

#149

Since they looked in my nose and removed the cyst which was not infected I have been taking note of my tonsils and it has developed holes in it. Only the left side.

I am not sure what I am dealing with here… Left hand side of my head has hurt for 2 years.

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#150

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7364

If you take a look at this you will see guys are tesing over range for viruses,mycoplasma and chlamydia. I think you will find similar results in chronic fatigue syndrome.

I have tried to rule out as many infections as I can so far. I am still getting red dots on the pharynx of my throat regardless of what I do.

I did some nebulized glutathione 2 days ago and seem to feel much worse. My headache got worse more fatigue,face looks worse.

#151

Nebulized glutathione totally fucked me for a couple days. Feeling better from that now.Hard to know what to make of that. Some say it transports toxins around your body like mercury and others.

Note how similar breast implant illness is to what we have

breastimplantillness.com/symptoms/

And breast implant illness is very much like CFS.

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#152

A few have posted tested for infections

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7364&p=77801&hilit=ebv#p77801

Recently brongfogboy said he tested positive for EBV too?

#153

Old post but interesting.

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#154

curezone.org/forums/am.asp?i=2201834

#155

Based on all of this stuff. I think that infections are playing a big role in this perhaps the major or only role or maybe fin destabilized something in the body leading to a state of chronic infections.

No one here has much success with hormones or endocrinologists.

If I was starting out with PFS this is what I would do.

Try to boost glutathione with food, herbs and lifestyle.
Boost immune system and natural killer cell cytotoxicity with herbs, vitamins and lifstyle.
Try and improve gut health to try and improve the immune system. My gut got messed up almost overnight with my crash. My efforts to improve the gut have not gotten me very far but the microbes in the gut play a big role in the immune system. Avoiding foods causing any immune reactions would be a good idea.
Find ways to detoxify any chemicals or metals in your body to boost your immune system.
Avoid all chemicals and other things which can stress your body.

You will find a lot of the recoveries are centered around natural healing methods. You will find that relapses often happened in times of stress.

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#156

Tried a couple days on prednisone to calm the inflamation. Did not help.

#157

As you may know glutathione depletion is a well know symptom of CFS. I also did a organic acid test and my glutathione is being depleted. It seems according to this post everyone else here who has tested have the same issue. How does fin lead to such similar symptoms to CFS?

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#158

Tongue seems to have a persistent covering of white stuff. Thrush? Feeling worse too… Before I would have this a little but it would come and go now it seems to be with me 24/7.

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#159

As far as I know. Every single person has low glutathione. I have spoken to others who have not posted on this forum and they are the same.

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#160

When people crash with chronic fatigue syndrome often one of their first symptoms is muscle twitches. Like most here.

This guy never took fin at all. He has CFS.