I believe I stated many times that replacing dht is suppressive of our own dht, you probably think that andro hard works like propionate, but not even close. Andro hard is no different from proviron or masteron, it is synthetic dht. The conversion process you are talking about is misleading and deceptive, prohormones are designed to be a legal steroid, it is legal till it passes through your liver. All andro hard is is a bunch of chemicals that when metabolized by your liver convert to dht. Dht suppressed our own dht, I have seen that time and again, which is why Goldstein’s approach is one I disagree with till a guy tries inducing his own with this protocol.
Dht will make you feel good at first by doing what dht does, killing estrogen, but it will suppress your own limited dht and you will have huge spikes and estrogen surges. Not to mention that not being on testosterone makes the situation even worse, dht without testosterone is useless.
CDnuts protocol is bullshit, using dht is suppressive of our condition and will make you fee better for a time till your system shuts it’s own dht down. What helped CDnuts was not the andro hard, it was the 4 years of recovery and then constant cycling of his 5ar and induction of his own dht by post cycle therapy protocols. He was using lots of post cycle therapy protocols body builders use to restore their own testosterone. This is the same principal as what I am doing, only mine is straight to the point with real drugs and not weak supplements.
In many of these body builder pct’s there are anti estrogen supplements too, he was innovative and did the right thing, but the andro hard was not. I tried everything (including andro hard), that’s what lead me to proviron and then masteron. Dht replacement works, you just need to be on testosterone and need a large dose of a potent dht injection, gels and pills won’t cut it. You will never recover though. The reason it works at first is because you have some dht activity and it is adding to it, but then your body starts lowering its dht as it detects too much dht and then you decline as estrogen rises.
If a guy for some reason ever didn’t respond to my protocol and was in fact fucked somehow, I could fix him with my nuclear option. Be careful of this misleading misconception that androhard somehow converts to dht through your own system, utter bullshit. It’s adding exogenous dht to your system which is being manufactured in your liver by chemicals.
Testosterone propionate is testosterone not dht, so it releases very quickly and your system starts doing the best it can (with pfs) to reduce it to dht, and much of it aromatizes and converts to estrogen, so you need anti estrogens to counter that.
Thanks for clearing that up. Did you start to feel worse over time while taking masteron?
Masteron made my muscles huge, it was amazing, my sex drive was sickly, like I had to get off 15 times in a day (like testosterone pre fin). It only worked with testosterone as an anti estrogen, however, it started suppressing my own dht, so I didn't have the regulation of estrogen via my own dht. Masteron does not kill estrogen, it blocks it, it may kill some, but it reversed the entire condition.
I started feeling some estrogen effects like water retention and the other stuff, panic, anxiety, but my sex drive was potent as fuck and my muscles were huge and rock hard.
So to answer your question, yes and no, it raised my blood pressure a lot, but my body adapted and my CNS lowered my blood pressure to compensate. I suggest masteron as a last resort, it will suppress your chances of recovery and shut down your own dht. I wanted the approach of restoring things to what they naturally were before, we have to induce our own dht. Guys who recovered often used lots of hormones that induced dht over time (I.e. CDnuts and -JN-). Allowing your system to stay shut down by estrogen like many of the UK guys suggest is a horrible idea.
You have to fix this, you can't let estrogen run rampant in your body, it will drive you insane and cause all sorts of problems and most concerting is the possibility of cancer from estrogen.Don’t get me wrong though, if this shit ever failed, I would go straight down the dht replacement road again, but I wouldn’t use a fucking gel, I would use Primobolan or masteron. I just don’t see any evidence that things are going to decline for me, they should remain the same at worst and get better at best. There were 2 times I spontaneously recovered on testosterone enanthate to about 90% and then crashed. I didn’t know then the crashes were estrogen, had I known, i would by now be completely recovered I’m sure. Those recoveries give me hope that I’m on the right track, all common sense does too, plus I’m being practical. There are no doctors I know of that prescribe dht injections, I would like to tell Goldstein about masteron and Primobolan so that at least he starts doing it right, so if any of us ever need it we can get it legitimately.
I just don’t see that as being a problem, with my protocol everyone should recover, I say that because the non response thinking is where I was in the past. I didn’t just become responsive, I had to keep trying new things, HGH changed the equation, that’s another discussion though.
RQ: What improvements did Goldstien expect you to get? Everyone gets pissed off at me for being negative but… No response to T is pretty bad news. That and if all he recommended was dht gel that suckes. I ordered that online with no prescription at all.
It’s pretty extensive. The main hormonal elements are low-dose T and DHT cream, along with HCG or Clomid (to preserve the body’s natural T production) and an estrogen blocker (Arimidex). Actually, the DHT cream can’t be obtained with a prescription; you have to order it online. This is part of his Power Point – how to order it. Beyond that, he prescribes a number of drugs at very low dosages that are aimed at tilting the brain’s chemical balance more toward pleasure (if I understood right). There are also a few things that are designed specifically to boost sexual function. All told, I feel like I’ll be able to open up a pharmacy of my own when I get stocked up on all of this.
Based on what he’s saying, I wouldn’t be too discouraged by previous lack of response to T. He’s emphasizing the T/DHT ratio – the idea of using them in tandem and trying to get them at fairly high levels and at a 1:1 ratio.
The proliferation of ARs that Goldstein highlighted matches the Italian penile biopsy results: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=9335
Also, their “mutated” state may be similar to something Awor posted about abnormal AR proteins.
JQD:
- Can you explain how T converts to DHT if 5ar is impaired in PFSers?
- Can you please use paragraphs in your posts?
RecentQuitter:
Can you specify the actual list of drugs and dosages that were prescribed to you? Is cabergoline in there? What else? Mind giving us the laundry list? Much appreciated, and thanks for reporting back from your visit.
Presumably these are tailored specifically according to an individual’s results?
I understand that, but I still am curious to hear RecentQuitter’s specific dosages just as a case study reference point. I’m also pretty sure that the rough protocol ingredients are a standard approach, and would like to know what else is in there for comparison’s sake to other TRT/PFS approaches.
Fair enough, just wanted to be sure. I’d be interested to know too.
This user goes to Goldstein. He posted his protocol. Nothing ground breaking.
So besides the hormonal stuff, here’s the list from his Power Point for “high inhibition/low excitation sexual dysfunction”:
- Dopamine Agonists: Bupropion (Wellbutrin), Cabergoline, Ropinirole, Rotigotine. VERY small does of all of these, administered daily.
- Ocytocin: To take just before sexual activity
- Amphetamine: Phentermine, just before sexual activity
- Adderall
- PDE 5 inhibitor (Viagra, Cialis etc.)
- Serotonin Antagonists: Buspirone
- Opioid Antagonists: Naltrexone
- Micronized progesteone, prior to sexual activity.
I have a picture of the slide, which has some more info and descriptions, but I’m having trouble uploading it. If I can post it later, I will.
Did anyone temporary reverse muscle atrophy, vision problems, tinnitus, emotional flatness, collagen loss on face thanks to trt???
Thanks, would be great to have an idea of dosages, and how often it’s recommended you take the above. Appreciate your posts on this.
Davey
I am experiencing all of these two months off fin. I’m getting hcg soon. Hopefully muscles and skin vitality at least will come back…
RecentQuitter your not alone in your experience with trt. In fact I have had your same exact experience trying trt as well as half a dozen times after trying half a dozen other things. And every time just like you, I’m “cured” for 2, three days and then PFS adapts and reverts back to its full range of side effects. If you do a search there are hundreds of people on this board who have tried something and had your same experience. I’ve come to the conclusion after 5 years that the reason trt and other things only works for a day or two is because the root of the problem has not been addressed.
Image a car that breaks down and doesn’t run. Without knowing whats wrong the first thing you would do is to put gas in the car to see if that got it to run. That’s what testosterone is to our reproductive system, gasoline. Now imagine the car is out of gas but the reason for that is a deeper problem, something that is wrong with the car. Maybe a hole in the gas tank for example, well filling the tank up with gas will work for a day but it doesn’t fix the core problem which is still there, a hole in the tank.
Look at my issues caused by pfs which are shared by many others here: my liver doesn’t function properly and can not process something as simple as alcohol coffee or even a light tea, the tissue in my penis and testicles has radically shrunk and gotten weak, my facial structure has drastically changed and aged, my nervous system has been put into a constant fight or flight mode, my immune system has dramatically changed, I haven’t been sick or ill in any way in over five years. Something in the core of who I am has changed to a point that for some reason I’m immune to getting sick. I haven’t had one cold, one flu one cough one sneeze from being sick in over half a decade. Do you think something as major as these could be fixed simply by taking some testosterone. No way in Hell. The foundation of who I am as a man as been altered at a fundamental level.
This is why I don’t think we will ever get to the bottom of these issues hypothesizing amongst ourselves in front of our computer screens trying to be armchair Drs. It’s why the studies done by world leading experts at Baylor and Harvard are so important and our only way to getting to the heart of the issue. Doing our most to get those studies completed is our best hope of finding a cure. I just wish more people on this board would start putting their energy behind that and stop chasing delusional pipe dreams in other avenues.
Great post, I agree 100 per cent.
I used to feel the same way westwide, but after reading Justquitdut protocol, I’m beginning to feel differently. I really believe 2015 is going to be a very good year.
Did you get a copy of the power point presentation? I am in Canada and can’t get down there but would love to have it to show my doctor wtf is going on.