Good Lord, how many times do I have to explain the same thing over and over Recent? You did not respond because your DHT is completely shut down by estrogen dominance. The best you can get from Arimidex is relief from misery, Patient X has not shut down his DHT via taking cypionate testosterone and has been stimulating it in small doses with tribulus and controlling the estrogen with Arimidex.
It is not your disbelief that is irritating, it is your failure to grasp what I say and then me having to repeat the same thing over and over again, that is what is irritating. Your claim that I am being rude to your questions is outlandish, I even exchanged numbers with you and spent HOURS on the phone with you for 2 days explaining in detail everything I believe and afterwards you even agreed with me.
Then the next day you posted a post asking the very same question again, why you responded to cypionate and then never again, when I tell you I had the same experiences you dismiss them as me being different somehow. Even though I told you I was non responsive for 3 months till I figured out HGH could mitigate the situation via inducing and regulating 5AR and starting the reduction of test to DHT and regulation of estrogen (to a point).
I did not get that initial boost again until I switched to propionate and kept estrogen very low, now what is rude is your inability to grasp what I am saying, and your asking the same questions over and over. Then your claim that I am being rude because I get irritated that you discount my credibility simply because you don’t believe me and can’t find posts on the internet to support this.
This isn’t about citations, this is about science, and concepts, and how things work, and trouble shooting around them. You are approaching this the wrong way, while I respect that approach, you lack the ability or willingness to understand or grasp these concepts simply because you cannot find citations to support them. Even though I have been in the industry, worked with doctors, dealt with patients for years and I know this to be true, that is meaningless to you.
You will keep asking the very same questions over and over and ignore the fact that I have found a way to reverse this and have someone else who is responding the same way to these principals who is well known here. When he posts, you all will be silent, but Recent, I never insulted you, to tell me I am insulting to people here is out of line. I am not insulting, I found a treatment and I understand what you don’t, I will not remain silent until this information is out there and people are aware of it so that when I move on I can in good conscience.
How many times do you have to explain? I think it depends how many more times you change your 100% Final Protocol…
And I don’t want to fight with you Recent, you are a nice guy in a bad place, my motivations are to help you and everyone here, but how long and often do I need to argue with you and explain the same things over and over for me to not be indignant towards your questions? Different questions ok, but dismissing points I know are facts and have demonstrated in real life just because you don’t understand them is rude. Let me tell you something man, I am RIGHT and that will be proven in time, so consider that for a moment. All your arguments are arguments I understand and understand why you are reacting the way you are, that is the difference between the two of us, I understand and know how to correct and you don’t. Instead of trying what would help you, you want to keep arguing about it over and over and spend money with these doctors who are using standard bad HRT and what is my motivation? There is no money in this for me, when this gets out and proven, some doctor will take credit and make money off it, I have NOTHING to gain from this, nothing but to help you and others here.
Protocols that all follow the same principals, I am just finding better drugs that work better, would it be better if I kept the same protocol that helped me months ago? Never evolving? Stayed on Aromasin even though my estrogen was surging? Mark my words, one day you are going to apologize to me for all this.
STOP.
Stop what? Should I remain silent even though I know I have a treatment that works?
You are un-fucking real, man.
Man, I have a treatment that has reversed this in me and someone else who will be coming out soon, and 2 other guys off the forum, I understand what is going on. Until this guy comes out, I am not going to just shut up because you don’t believe me. Even people here understand what I am saying and can’t understand your arguing constantly with me.
What will you do the day you find out I am right? Will you apologize? How come you can’t explain why I was also non responsive to test for 3 months before adding HGH, just like you, and I did not become responsive till I lowered my estrogen and started stimulating my DHT over time. I still couldn’t respond to any other form of test except minimally and that was enanthate, and after taking arimidex every hour, I did not have a shut down DHT system, I had it going. Once your DHT is shut down, you have to restart it, simply lowering estrogen on a very estrogenic ester of test does nothing.
This is the only time I have responded consistently to testosterone, since I started propionate, and it isn’t for some mysterious reason I can’t explain. It is not some minor difference between the two esters, it is a big difference that your lack of education in these matters is the reason you do not understand, not because I am wrong.
I am not arguing with you anymore, here I am trying to help you, I can’t force help on someone. You guys wonder why Patient X doesn’t want to come out till he is on propionate and its been a while? Now you know, he doesn’t want to deal with this!
For someone who brags about his scientific background, you seem to have no idea what evidence is. You keep saying: But look! I’ve reversed it in myself! I don’t know if you’re aware, but that’s what’s known as an anecdote. And your explanation for what is happening with you is your theory. Now you apparently have others putting this into practice. As I’ve said over and over and over and over and over, apparently not once penetrating your massive ego and making it through to your brain: I’m GLAD THIS IS HAPPENING AND I WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS – AND I WOULD LOVE FOR YOU TO BE RIGHT!
BUT…from my personal standpoint, when it comes to deciding how I’m going to treat myself, I don’t find your anecdote and your theory compelling enough to make that my priority at this moment. But I’d be happy to change my mind and my approach if and when you deliver EVIDENCE. This is really not that hard to grasp, and yet apparently it eludes you.
These are concepts that require education, Dr Jacobs grasps them within minutes, he never heard of propionate, and yet within minutes after me explaining how it works, he understands why it would work with PFS vs cypionate not working. That is because he grasps the science behind this and mechanisms, it is not anecdotal. These are translated understandings of mechanisms into reality, it took me years to learn all of this, if I spent my time proving to you what is accepted by doctors as fact, I would not be able to work and not be able to help myself or anyone else.
This is applying understandings of these things to a rare and real life situation with little study behind it, it is fine if you will not accept this, but I know it is true. So telling me I am being indignant or rude to sufferers of PFS I take issue with, especially considering I am trying to help them. You are discounting something because you don't understand it, it is not about belief, even dr Jacobs understood this in minutes.Also, I wanted to add that it is not JUST the fact that propionate dissipates in hours and is thus less estrogenic (and especially for our condition) it is also the fact that propionate releases all at once and induces A LOT of DHT, you left that part out, that is as important as the other. It is like propionate was designed for PFS, and it works, even with propionate managing the estrogen sometimes is a challenge, but it is doable, unlike cypionate. In order for you to respond to test like you did that one time again, you must clear your system of cypionate, lower your estrogen daily, then start propionate. If you would bloody listen to me, you could be recovering, I can’t wait for patient X to come out!
Nice to see you took the message to heart and adopted a new, less arrogant and more cooperative tone.
I am not sure if you are being cynical or serious, if I were arrogant and uncooperative, why would I be arguing to try and help others recover? Such a personality type would move on with their life and not care about others here. Perhaps I come across arrogant, but you are stubborn! I have no issue with moving on from here when patient X comes out. This isn’t about a protocol, it is about a concept, once you understand what is going on, you can regulate it and live normally.
Taking the same thing at the same time every day doesn’t cut it, you may have estrogen spikes that you have to lower with arimidex. This is about learning what estrogen feels like and what DHT feels like and keeping yourself balanced so that your neurosteroids can adapt and correct.
RecentQuitter, you are a muppet! 
Hey JQD,
Do you have a reference paper or citation on these low aromatization and high induction of DHT properties of test propionate? I’d love to read it if you do.
Bizz
I did a little digging and was able to find this. I’m not quite sure if this is what you’re looking for, but it does relate to the topic at hand. Looks like JQD is right, propionate does cause less estrogen related problems than cypionate. However, it also looks like there is no difference between the 2 regarding DHT conversion.
"ACTIONS OF DIFFERENT ESTERS
There are many different esters that are used with anabolic/androgenic steroids, but again, they all do basically the same thing. Esters vary only in their ability to reduce a steroid’s water solubility. An ester like propionate for example will slow the release of a steroid for a few days, while the duration will be weeks with a decanoate ester. Esters have no effect on the tendency for the parent steroid to convert to estrogen or DHT (dihydrotestosterone: a more potent metabolite) nor will it effect the overall muscle-building potency of the compound. Any differences in results and side effects that may be noted by bodybuilders who have used various esterified versions of the same base steroid are just issues of timing. Testosterone enanthate causes estrogen related problems more readily than Sustanon, simply because with enanthate testosterone levels will peak and trough much sooner (1-2 week release duration as opposed to 3 or 4). Likewise testosterone suspension is the worst in regards to gyno and water bloat because blood hormone levels peak so quickly with this drug. Instead of waiting weeks for testosterone levels to rise to their highest point, here we are at most looking at a couple of days. Given an equal blood level of testosterone, there would be no difference in the rate of aromatization or DHT conversion between different esters. There is simply no mechanism for this to be possible.
There is however one way that we can say an ester does technically effect potency; it is calculated in the steroid weight. The heavier the ester chain, the greater is its percentage of the total weight. In the case of testosterone enanthate for example, 250mg of esterified steroid (testosterone enanthate) is equal to only 180mg of free testosterone. 70mgs out of each 250mg injection is the weight of the ester. If we wanted to be really picky, we could consider enanthate slightly MORE potent than cypionate (I know this goes against popular thinking) as its ester chain contains one less carbon atom (therefore taking up a slightly smaller percentage of total weight). Propionate would of course come out on top of the three, releasing a measurable (but not significant) amount more testosterone per injection than cypionate or enanthate."
No, it does not look like JQD is right. The issue here is not whether there is a difference between Cyp and Prop. It is self-evidently true that there is. I have never disputed this; it is what I am alluding to when I mention the body-builders who talk of reaping optimal benefits from Propionate. The issue, rather, is JQD’s contention that this difference is so significant and so fundamental as to render one capable of curing us and the other sure to send us further into Propecia hell. I have asked for research that quantifies such a massive difference or otherwise demonstrates it; he has responded with nothing. What you have found and are posting here is consistent with what I have been saying: a real but not earth-shattering difference between the two.
To put this in some perspective, I took .4 mL of the cypionate version of testosterone. I then took 25 milligrams of Arimidex – 25 individual pills. (Customarily, body builders will take perhaps 1mg PER WEEK.) I believe that if JQD is right, then I would have felt something by taking such an obscene amount of an estrogen blocker, when in fact I felt nothing. JQD contends that I would have felt something if only I had taken the Propionate version of Testosterone – that the difference between the two is enough to override the effect of a practically super-human level of Arimidex. I say bullshit.
Ok, sorry. I wasn’t aware of the details of what you’d tried in the past. You could be right. It could be total BS. And I think you make a good point as to why this is not even close to the silver bullet.
However, he seems to be right about the Cypionate causing more estrogenic effects than propionate. If you take Cypionate, Testosterone will build up in you over the course of your cycle meaning you will have a higher testosterone level which can cause more aromatization of Test to Est. Could this possibly be a reason why TRT seems to work in some men but stops after a week or two? Has anybody been prescribed Test. Propionate when going on TRT or is it always Cypionate?
Just to make it clear here, I’m not trying to say either one of you is right or wrong. I’m just trying to add my 2 cents and contribute to the discussion.
Yep, this is why I was intrigued by what he was saying. There is a difference between the two types. But that’s not the question here; the question is about the degree of difference. And literally everything I can find points to a relatively small one – as you say, one stays in your system longer (so that you won’t have to take an injection as often). And as I said, my own experience tells me the same.
But this is all beside the point. I can’t stress that enough. Totally fine for JQD to share his experience, encourage others to try, and for everyone to compare notes. That’s great! It’s his rigid, practically hucksterish insistence that he has The Cure that’s the problem. That kind of attitude in the face of the miserable history of false cure claims that we all know so well around here deserves – in fact demands – skepticism. And skepticism, as he should know, is fundamental to good science.
Again, he put up a post with an ALL CAPS headline touting a final, 100% reversal protocol. But if you were to use that very protocol right now – the one that he posted! – he would tell you that you’re hurting yourself! If he can’t see how much his posture has ruined his credibility, I don’t know what to say.
Also, I have question for JQD:
I’ve taken androhard in the past and the results seem to contradict what you’ve been saying. Androhard converts directly in to DHT w/ no estrogen by product at all. When I took Androhard, I felt almost 100% recovered for the first day. I’ll never forget how hard my boners were that day. After that though, the effects completely faded and I seemed to almost get worse as I took more Androhard. I took it for a total of 30 days.
Why would Androhard not work, but the Test. Propionate work?
Once again, I’m not trying to say that your theory is wrong by any means. It seems like you know what you’re talking about. I’m simply curious as to why Androhard was such a HUGE letdown.
When I sought to find a cure or treatment for pfs for myself, I already had extensive knowledge of these things. It's the mechanisms of action and years of experience that educate me. Propionate is listed in pharmaceutical literature as being less estrogenic. Propionate has a much higher dht profile then any other form of testosterone, the post just posted is some comment from some forum. That doesn't mean it is more accurate than I am, I am accurate as I carry the knowledge and experience of a doctor in these matters.
I have a business to run and I don't make a living off of this, on the contrary actually. So there are things I don't know and have researched, but the things I know or already knew, I have no time or need to research. Propionate releases more dht than any other form of testosterone I know of, the reason is because it releases very quickly and at once. A longer acting ester releases slower and you could compare this as instant release vs extended release. In science and medicine we have to use our brains sometimes, just by understanding mechanisms and pharmacology and endocrinology, we know propionate releases more dht.
Aside from the fact that most guys can't handle it do to the high dht side effect profile, and other guys take it due to its low estrogen profile. This is not due to the drug itself, it has to do with the mechanism of action. If you have ever seen an extended release pill of any drug, it says not to crush or chew, that's because it will release all of the drug at once in your system and cause and OD vs slowly over time.
So propionate just dumps all its test very quickly and thus your body starts reducing it to dht (as much as it can) and much is aromatized (due to our condition). However, it makes it manageable, so we get as much dht as we are going to get from anything, and dht has a 5 day half life, so it builds up. After it releases, it then starts to dissipate and fade away, so your compromised and fucked 5ar system doesn't have to deal with it as hard.
So while you still need high doses of AI, you can manage it, some days are better than others, the hope is that by keeping things balanced, in time the problem will self correct. Propionate dumps all its test in hours, cypionate in 10 days, we cannot handle a lot of testosterone 24/7. We need powerful low pulses every day that we can handle.
There is even a shorter eater than propionate, I forget the name, I have to look into it, would be curious if it would work even better. I still have to deal with the eatrogen from even propionate, but it's much easier to deal with as I know it will wear off as the day and night go by. With enanthate or cypionate, you know it will only get worse and stronger and worse, it's a nightmare that can't be controlled.
This protocol is designed to give us the maximum dht boost from our own system that we can get every day, hopefully we will actually recover rather than just stay in reversal. While using masteron would be much more effective as an AI and dht replacement, it will suppress our dht, it seems in our condition dht can be suppressed, not in normal men. Unfortunately masteron is not something doctors prescribe and you would never recover, it's a good nuclear option if all else fails.
However, I do believe based on all I know and have experienced, that as time goes by our systems will recover more and more. Goldstein's nonsense about non responsive men is just his ignorance, there are no such things as non responsive men, that is a myth like unicorns. They are suffering from extreme estrogen dominance on the neurosteroidal level. If they were to quit all test and take arimidex daily for a couple weeks and then start low doses of propionate daily and take arimidex as needed (up to 6mg a day unfortunately), their dht will build up and they will start to respond.
If for some reason they didn't, andractim gel is worthless, masteron would need to be used along with testosterone, it would take 3 weeks to a month for them to feel anything. If you were non responsive, you would not respond to estrogen, you can't respond to eatrogen but then not to testosterone or dht. You can't respond once to testosterone then never respond again, it's just estrogen dominance and it shuts down everhthing. Taking more cypionate only makes it worse, you have to lower estrogen on a neuro steroidal level, it takes time.
Even on propionate, I have estrogen surges and spikes, I often have to take up to 6mg of arimidex a day because I am on 30mg a day of propionate, less propionate, less arimidex, but I have a muscular body, rock hard erections, great mood, I'm normal. My hope is that in time as my dht builds up and my system restores, I will require less and less. I am looking for better drugs, better AI methods and better forms of testosterone. While many here criticize me for changing my protocol, they just don't understand that because you find a way to reverse this doesn't mean you stick with it forever.
I want to find better ways, the reason is, we don't know how this will play out long term. What if this is something we have forever? So while I hope not, I am looking for the easiest and most practical and most efficient and effective protocol. Propionate and arimidex are the best right now, that will never change. I may find a better form of test and AI, but that doesn't mean propionate and arimidex will stop working, this will always work as a good way to treat pfs. What I'm doing with patient X is teaching him everytbing I know. If you all can understand what's going on, you can manage your condition and live normally. My hope is that if enough of you learn this and reverse this, some of you will tell doctors in other countries and someone somewhere will come up with something better.
I don't do this for a living, I used to, but I don't now, so my free time has to be spent enjoying life and working on my business so that I can pay for my life lol. It's easy to believe you are non responsive to testosterone and dht with this condition. There were many months I thought I was too, I don't respond to propionate like a normal man. I don't get as strong a boost as I would prefin, and I get a lot of estrogen. However, I am more muscular than a normal man, don't need any Viagra, feel normal and am in every way normal.
Remember that even 30mg of propionate is a low dose, a very low dose, so I will be attempting to increase that dose. It's confusing for you guys but increasing test can either lower estrogen or raise it, it depends on how much 5ar activity and how much is reduced to dht which then kills estrogen. So it is likely that if I increased to 50mg I would feel even better, but the estrogen may be too much to handle, Ideally I would like to take the post propionate I can and the least arimidex I can, that's finding a balance.
That's why you guys must try to look beyond the exact protocol and understand the mechanisms of action, what's going on, why it's working, there will be days you will need a lot of arimidex. There will be days your dht gets suppressed because you had an estrogen spike. The alternative is to live with pfs and allow estrogen to over take you and have no dick, no muscles, be miserable and deal with it.
The methods I was using in the past were too complicated for most of you, so I have been working on better and simpler protocols. It would be easier to give up on rexocering and go straight on masteron or Primobolan, but what happens when I can't get more? What doctor even prescribes them? So that's why I took this approach, I know I recovered once to 90% for 3 weeks on enanthate without any extra arimidex!!! That was before I knew this was estrogen. Then I set myself back with dht and aromasin use.
I am slowly responding more and more to propionate, all of you would kill to be where I am, I have managed to reverse a body which has for the most part just got pfs a month ago. The reason I say that is because dht and aromasin use sets us back to when we first had our estrogen dominance crash aka pfs crash.
So knowing that I recovered that much in a matter of months gives me a lot of hope that I will eventually be able to use a normal hrt protocol without daily injections or lots of arimidex. Some days I only need 1mg of arimidex, others I need 3mg and others up to 6mg. I think in 3 months I will need a lot less arimidex and be much more responsive to propionate. The point is, I found a way to respond to test every day and have a normal life.
If I didnt try to evolve and find better ways of managing this, I wouldn't have got where I am today. I have reversed pfs with hormones, no one else has before, and this protocol is causing my system to recover I'm almost certain.