How long is your “recovery” lasting?
Abstract
The decline of circulating testosterone levels in aging men is associated with adverse health effects. During studies of probiotic bacteria and obesity, we discovered that male mice routinely consuming purified lactic acid bacteria originally isolated from human milk had larger testicles and increased serum testosterone levels compared to their age-matched controls. Further investigation using microscopy-assisted histomorphometry of testicular tissue showed that mice consuming Lactobacillus reuteri in their drinking water had significantly increased seminiferous tubule cross-sectional profiles and increased spermatogenesis and Leydig cell numbers per testis when compared with matched diet counterparts This showed that criteria of gonadal aging were reduced after routinely consuming a purified microbe such as L. reuteri . We tested whether these features typical of sustained reproductive fitness may be due to anti-inflammatory properties of L. reuteri , and found that testicular mass and other indicators typical of old age were similarly restored to youthful levels using systemic administration of antibodies blocking pro-inflammatory cytokine interleukin-17A. This indicated that uncontrolled host inflammatory responses contributed to the testicular atrophy phenotype in aged mice. Reduced circulating testosterone levels have been implicated in many adverse effects; dietary L. reuteri or other probiotic supplementation may provide a viable natural approach to prevention of male hypogonadism, absent the controversy and side-effects of traditional therapies, and yield practical options for management of disorders typically associated with normal aging. These novel findings suggest a potential high impact for microbe therapy in public health by imparting hormonal and gonad features of reproductive fitness typical of much younger healthy individuals.
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I just ordered Nature’s Way Reuteri. Will report when results are in.
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There is something about those two strains. I get much greater benefits from those two than eating yogurt.
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Hey @orthogs,
I’m very glad to hear that’s providing such a profound benefit to your symptoms. How long has this been going on?
I can’t provide anything concrete I’m afraid. If we assume for the purposes of brief discussion that, speaking high-level, an epigenetic alteration has occurred in response to use of finasteride coherent with site-specific epigenetic differences in patients vs controls (Di Loreto et al., 2014; Basaria et al., 2016; Melcangi et al., 2019), certain alterations in the serum milieu could be creating a more functionally ‘optimal’ level for cells adapted to the DHT-deprived environment for a time, before washout.
It’s very difficult to infer precisely why, but there’s a few things that are potentially of interest. Obviously, influence upon remote tissues are due to the formation of bioactive metabolites. Different strains of L Reuteri are associated with several outcomes that could that could feasibly modulate the condition, including testosterone, TNF-alpha suppression and even ethanol production as a direct metabolite. I think @Sibelio has linked a study above I have seen before regarding a seemingly significant increase in serum testosterone. Given your stated symptomatic situation, it’s plausible this pro-testosterone effect may be of benefit. Have you tried a low dose of testosterone before? Likewise, knowing how you felt in comparison to taking TNF-a inteference drugs such as Adalimumab or Certolizumab pegol would be of interest, but to be clear, I have no idea of safety, and this would be an enormous risk with this condition. Side effects can be quite serious outside of it, so I’m only talking hypothetically what might potentially give a clue, mechanistically.
The fact that you state this is wearing off is interesting, and that it’s quite quick to notice the effect. Are there other ingredients in these capsules listed beyond what they deem the active ingredient? Such supplements have poor regulatory oversight, but it’s worth ruling out as far as you are able by trusting the label.
Whatever the case, I hope it keeps working for you. Personally, I took L reuteri (different brand and potentially different strands, though quite a few more strands) for the duration of a bottle a few years ago and never felt a slight difference. Functional problems are far the least of my worries as I have had substantial physical damage and am in constant severe penile/perineal/prostate pain since my crash, but these were not affected. I did not feel any difference whatsoever in terms of my severe cognitive symptoms, or any other symptoms either.
Best and good luck,
axo
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How about a week on antibiotics and fecal transplant afterwards to reset gut biome?
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@axolotl, thanks for the considered reply.
I started it on Christmas Eve. There have been periods where I haven’t taken it (if I take it for too many consecutive days it gives me endless flatulence and burping). I’m now on a once every two days schedule, taken with breakfast.
No, I haven’t. I have considered it in the past, but due to so many stories of failure I have hesitated to go down this route.
Of course you or nobody else can say with certainty, but do you think it’s reasonable to assume that the T-boosting effect could warrant me trying to take low does Testosterone, given that I may be responding to this attribute in particular? Do you think it’s a relatively risk-free undertaking?
As you stress, I would be unwilling to try any of those fangled TNF-a influencing drugs due to the high risk associated with taking them.
There doesn’t seem to be any other ingredients listed. Yes, the rapidity of onset of relief is surprising to me and hard to explain given one would assume that it would take a considerable time for the bacteria to reach the gut and begin exerting their effect.
Blackmores in a highly respected brand in Australia, and in the Asia-Pacific region at large. In fact its not uncommon to be unable to specifically find their products at pharmacies, as many Chinese residents as well as visitors clean them off the shelf and post them to China to sell at a marked up price.
I’m certainly sorry to hear that you tried this without any positive effect. It really does seem there is significant variance in severity amongst PFS sufferers, with you seemingly at the severe end of things.
I hope we can soon identify some kind of unifying mechanism which can explain what brings this on and how we can hopefully provide effective relief for as many members as possible. The variance in efficacy of different ‘off-the-shelf’ treatment modalities does concern me, but I hold out hope that we’ll get there in the end.
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Looking at this topic from top to bottom, I think everytime l. reuteri is mentioned its of a different kind or different strain. Starting from what Orthogs is taking to whats in the study, to what Sibelio just bought, they are all different.
If trying to repeat any reported positive results, it might be best looking at identical strains if possible, or at least what makes them similar.
The 6475 strain thats in the study produces histamine and reuterin (a antibiotic type metabolite)
I believe what Orthogs is taking does not, although It might produce hydrogen peroxide.
Ones isolated from breast milk, one is a vaginal commensal.
Also if you start combining too many different strains, they can have opposing effects.
My thought here would be to basically plug something in that might be missing, whether thats the type of bacteria itself or what might make it unique.
A bacterial type deficiency that causes chronic dysbiosis and inflammation maybe. Also having a similar thought with the wrong type of bacteria that could become dominant.
I looked at histamine producing 6475 alot and idk,
I took 10 billion a day for months on end.
I started to experience a type of cold similar to skin being exposed to cold air without the warming phase coming back. I could make excuses for this but it concerned me enough to stop. With this coldness also came numbness. So idk, I could talk more on this, but im done for now.
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So just a theory. But don’t most women’s probiotics focus on balancing yeast? Could this be why the OP had such profound benefits?
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There was some guy here before with a pretty strong dose of Diflucan. I remember he treated it aggressively as a gut issue and was able to fix his issues, it’s a shame he doesn’t post anymore.
So since Christmas you are feeling better. That means less than 1 months.
Please keep us updated.
Id also like to add be careful with probiotics, some of their potential effects could linger, whether desirable or not. Human derived strains could be more potent as well.
Ive posted on antibiotic resistance for the popular Align probiotic to zpac,
Here is showing some pretty good resistance of L.reuteri 6475 to 3 different antibiotics used for c.diff infection.
Intrinsic resistance to multiple antibiotics is common in Lactobacillus spp
Human-derived L. reuteri strains 17938 and 6475 demonstrated the most consistent and robust resistance to all three drugs, with the MICs being from 64- to 128-fold greater than the corresponding MIC90 for C. difficile .
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are you still seeing benefits? I purchased a bottle but i’m apprehensive to take it because i can’t find where it’s produced. the company’s headquarters are in australia but i wouldn’t trust a product made in china
It’s not made in China. Blackmores is well-trusted. And yes, effects are still there to varying degrees.
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Just figured Id dump this here, looking at major commensal bacterial metabolites. (I think they mention the effects were pretty rapid)
SCFA production is one of them.
Lactic acid is not a scfa but its production could possibly feed other bacteria that do produce scfas
There’s 3 major scfas
acetate, propionate, and butyrate.
The normal ratio is 60:20:20
Im actually looking at the middle one right now, its what p.acnes was originally named after.
I know Moonman has talked about the possible benefits of butyrate.
Human-origin probiotic cocktail increases short-chain fatty acid production via modulation of mice and human gut microbiome
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-30114-4
The gut bacteria producing metabolites like short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs; e.g., acetate, propionate and butyrate), are frequently reduced in Patients with diabetes, obesity, autoimmune disorders, and cancers. Hence, microbiome modulators such as probiotics may be helpful in maintaining or even restoring normal gut microbiome composition to benefit host health. Herein, we developed a human-origin probiotic cocktail with the ability to modulate gut microbiota to increase native SCFA production.
Is there a reason why you use so little when most sources recommend 10 15 billion to start.
Recently is started using probiotics and I ve noticed some major improvements on my digestion which has helped with my mood , sleep, energy, cognitive impairment has gotten better, digestion, inflammation has cleared up in my skin. Possibly treating an underlining leaky gut issue.
That lasts for about a week then my sleep starts getting worse and my muscles get sore and weak which I think is a build up of lactic acid and I start losing all my progress and get crazy anxiety. I’m trying to find a sweet spot for the probiotics because they are relatively inexpensive and harmless.
Have you or anyone else experienced a regression after benefiting from probiotics and what was the fix?
Just thought I’d provide an update. Took a capsule of the probiotics after about a two week break period and it seems to not have any effect. I don’t know if its a ‘that’s all folks’ state of affairs or whether it’s just a one-off.
Even in the latter days of me taking it regularly it appears that the effects did lessen.
So if this update brings useful information to those looking to try it, or just allow for some schadenfreude… yes… it seems, for now at least, as per the anecdote of @ginge1612, the effects have faded.
Probably an effect on the gut-brain axis.
I thought it may be the butyric acid. It seems not to be produced by L. Reuterii, but can be made by other bacteria from the lactic acid. Butyric acid has a positive effect on histone acetylation (epigenetics) and has been found to be important for brain development and brain health. But Butyric acid seems to be also a slight 5ar blocker like many healthy compounds.
The effects could also be not from Reuterii itself but from Reuterii diminishing other strains.
Changes in microbiome had been reported in mice fed with Finasteride (and I think also PFS patients).
Changes in microbiome can lower the uptake of certain amino acids as it happens in TBI. Consecutively GH is low. If this mechanism is involved in PFS too its just speculation.
Personally, I saw some improvements from yogurt (which also contains lactic acid and probiotics
I tried Reuteri 5 billion cfu. There was no discernable effect on PFS symptoms. I will keep trying for a while more and will report if something changes.
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