Warning: 2 studies regarding anti-androgenic effects of plant polyphenols

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polyphenols are everythere even in apples and onions. These studies are labotory studies, I doubt that flavonols which are consumed in a normal diet would be able to inhibit a substantial amount of DHT to have an effect. On the other hand it could be the case that pfs makes one way more sensitive or even allergic to AR-inhibitors.

It could be that things like carniovre diet are helpful because they cut them out.

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Hey man, in food I’m in minimal doses. You don’t know what you’re talking about, though. Quercitin gave me PFS. Very strict. It is as powerful as Finasteride, perhaps even more.


Quercetin and three synthesized methylated quercetin derivatives were evaluated for their inhibitor activity against steroid 5α-reductase. Riboflavin was included as a positive control. As shown at Table 1, the inhibitory effects of the compounds 2 and 3 were consistent with large data variations. Therefore, we discuss the Scheme 1. Synthesis of methylated quercetin derivative sinhibitory effect at only 100 μM. Overall, quercetin exhibited better inhibitory activity than the methylated derivatives.”

95,6-153,5% (100um/1000um) of inhibits is very very high.

Certainly some foods are bad for us, but concentrated flavonoids are very dangerous for us.



You’re right. There’s unlikely to be a sufficient amount of any of these substances in an ingestible amount of food to have the effects observed in the studies. But there are now synthetic preparations available that provide hundreds of times the amounts of phytochemicals available in food sources.

There are also quite a few people who landed on this site because of saw palmetto.

The message is simply to be cautious.

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I fixed the problem, I barely eat any plant at at. Mostly meat and animal fat.



I doubt something natural would cause the permanent damage a drug would.

If it does inhibit 5ar it has to be temporary, if significant at all



Nice list someone made of members who were given the gift of PFS from a natural product:



Few months after taking finasteride, I got messed up again from eating too many cocoa beans which can contain lots of polyphenols. I mean, cocoa beans. Fucking chocolate. It’s completely ridiculous, but anyone who posts here must be very mindful about taking any kind of supplement or larger amounts of health foods than what is usually consumed in a regular diet at a time.

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Yes. There are many fatal poisons in nature. I`m being more and more careful about medicinal plants and prefer amino acids which is what the body is producing and using. Much easier to control too.

For example, the body produces Choline and Betaine. It knows what to do with it, how to eliminate it. You can supplement some more of it, as long as it`s not too much and it fits right in.

Who knows what are the full effects of plant supplements ? The list is long for each one and researches are dubious about the full effects of a plant. They usually study only a few aspects at a time.



Any suggestions regarding controlling TMAO levels when supplementing with choline? Choline triggers gut bacteria to create TMAO, right?

Edit: Choline triggers gut microbes to create TMA/trimethyline which gets converted to TMAO/trimethyline -N-oxide by the liver.



What`s TMAO ?



A compound that contributes to a higher risk of clot-related events like heart attacks and strokes which is dramatically increased by the consumption of choline and acetylcarnitine from animal products. It’s also associated with pre-mature death due to cardiovascular complications.

Strangely enough, I read that choline from plant products does not result in TMAO production unlike animal products.



Yes I see. Considering Im not eating carbs and strokes and heart attacks are very uncommon for people on ketogenic / carnivore diet, Im not too concerned.

Apparently, it`s reduced by Cysteine and iron, both of which are abundant in meat. Cysteine also produces Glutathione, which is the number one body anti-oxydant.

One thing I know for sure is before I started the diet, I would bruise easily. I almost always had a bruise somewhere. On this diet, I dont have bruise at all. Surely thats an indication of reduced risk of stroke ?



And by the way, it`s true I think Choline and Betaine are good to keep a balanced testosterone / estrogen ratio, but my main thing is the ketogenic diet.

There is no single thing I have done that helped me more than that one. You guys eat what you want, but the path is clear to me !



I am curious about supplementing with choline. Where could I read about TMAO being controlled by cysteine and iron? Meat contains heme-iron, is that the same as iron?

I am not sure if bruising is related to stroke risk. But that’s really interesting though. I’m glad that you’ve found something that works for you.




A bruise is the rupture of a blood vessel, causing a local hemorrhagia. A stroke is a bruise in the brain.


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You don’t know what you’re talking about.



its a small minority. but im sure nothing of this natural supplements hit someone so hard as pfs. caused by merck. merck is master in creating dangerous, damaging drugs. vioxx and finasteride are only few examples of this corrupt organization.



I’m not defending Merck in any way.

The “dangers of natural vs synthetic” argument is moot.

Some of the saw palmetto victims describe symptoms much more severe than the “average” PFS patient. @spstriken is one example of the extreme end of saw-palmetto side effects.

Severity appears to be determined by individual susceptibility as much as the potency of antiandrogenic effect of the substance that inflicts one with PFS.